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?'s about treating 1095 and 1084

Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
380
As most of you know i was planning on a ht oven build, Well right now it is out of my budget so I am going to do the 2 brick propane oven.

I have a few questions on treating 1095 and 1084, and the whole process!!

I have done alot of reading in the last few weeks about treating these two steels.

Can anyone give me a good process to doing these two steels?

so far I have gotten this

Normalise 3 times, bring to nonmagnetic(for 1095 hold for about 2 minutes)
quench, and temper 2 to 3 times at 400.

So To begin with the questions..............
Can anyone explain the normalizing process? I do not know how to do it!!

Is the McMaster-carr 11 second quench good for both 1095 and 1084?

Do I get the whole knife to nonmagnetic, Or just the blade?

Do I do anything to the knife to make the whole thing less hard than the blade?
I seen one tutorial on O1 that the guy did the whole process then put the edge in water and took a propane torch and heated up the handle and the spine above the edge.

I would like to try hamon lines, can this be done with just getting some satanite and using the 2 brick forge?

As far as testing the blades, I can do the brass rod test and do a bend to 90 degrees test, what do I want to see to have a good treated blade?
Is there anyone that does Rockwell testing?

I am sorry for all the questions but I am just trying to get this right.
I know I will have to experiment a little.
 
Every question you have is answered directly above in
"The process and principles of quenching"
and
"Working the three steel types".
 
The 90 degree bend test is for the ABS Journeyman test AFAIK and is not a test that a typical using knife should be subjected to. Many will probably fail. The Journeyman test requires that the blade used be differentially hardened and the bend test is designed to prove this single aspect, it has nothing to do with practical use.
 
Mr. ern26, yes your questions are answered in the stickies, and yes they are some of the most common questions we answer here in the forums. But you have come here with specific questions about specific steels, AISI numbers and all, with a specific, well formulated quench oil in mind, and this demonstrates to me that you have a serious approach to the venture you are undertaking. This approach is the kind that inspires me to keep typing and answering questions and look forward to the blades you may produce one day.

Now to the questions:

Normalizing is for the purpose of returning the internal condition of the steel to an equalized and “normal” condition after forging and other operations that can wreak havoc on it. The number one man key to normalizing is to do everything evenly, or it really isn’t normalizing. For these steels heat them the first time to well above critical. Critical should actually be around 1475F-1500F, not nonmagnetic which is actually around 50F lower than this, but by the time you get the whole blade nonmagnetic in a forge it will be in the right range anyhow, just take it a little bit higher. Although I hate using color descriptions for temperatures- nice bright orange in a dark room, but never yellow or white. Allow the blade to air cool.

Next heat the blade just as evenly to just nonmagnetic and allow it to air cool.

On the last heat go for a very dull red and DO NOT allow the blade to loose magnetism and allow to air cool.

Technically the first heat was the only one that can be called “normalizing” but bladesmiths call all these thermal cycles that. The last dull red heat even doubles as an annealing operation, and is really THE way to do the 1095, 1084 can be stuffed in vermiculate or the forge for the night at critical but 1095 should not, and 1084 will work pretty well with the dull red treatment as well.

If your blades are under ¼” in thickness the 11 second oil should get you to where you are going; the 1095 may even give you a natural hamon without even trying.

Once again the temp you are really shooting for is 1475F but in a forge, on your first attempts, I am certain you will get there, and then some, just trying to go totally non-magnetic. You don’t really nee to worry about the tang at this point of your knifemaking but you will get the most strength from the blades by heating the entire blade evenly to non-magnetic and hardening as much as you can.

Once again for maximum blade strength you will want to harden it all and then temper it all evenly. The torch on the spine is great for bending blades in an ABS type bend test but we really shouldn’t want actual using knives to easily bend, we should want them to resist bending- that is why we want strength.

I would strongly suggest that you walk before you run and do a few fully quenched blades successfully and understand the process well before moving on to controlling the hamon with clay ashi lines, this will allow you to get a grasp of the hamon much better. Also, as I mentioned, if the blades approach 3/16” to ¼” at the spine they will probably automatically give you hamon in many oils.

I personally would not use the 2 brick forge thing. The best results I get from heat treating when using a forge, even better than serious gas forges, is to make a coal or charcoal (real, not briquettes) fire in a forge and build a brick tunnel over the fire to create an oven type chamber with both ends open. Heat the blade spine down in the coals while keeping the tip out the other end until the last moment.

As for tests, you really can’t bend every blade to 90 and still have any knives to use afterwards, and this a great test of a smiths ability to control heat but it really doesn’t tell you anything about how the knife will perform as a knife. Knives cut things and should continue to easily cut for as long as possible, the properties that would allow them to bend are in direct opposition to this prime function.

The brass rod test is fine, just understand wholly what it is telling you and what it cannot tell you. Despite what you will overwhelmingly hear from smiths it cannot tell you almost anything about your heat treat. Flex is not a function of heat treatment, flexing is wholly a function of geometry, these are facts based on physical laws that bladesmiths cannot change. Heat treatment can determine how the flex will fail when you have gone too far, but then it is rather a moot point. Don’t get me wrong, if you totally blow the heat treatment the edge will indeed chip in this use and any other. In the old Solingen knifeworks that smiths refer to in order to give weight to this test, there was a guy who flexed the edges over a round, but he did not do this in the heat treating department, he stood behind the man at the grinder to check if he was doing his job correctly. So use the bras rod thing to determine consistent edge geometry on your blades, and leave hardness testing to hardness testers.

Find a friend, here or otherwise, to do proper hardness test for you and this, combined with other tests such as the rod and cutting will give you the entire picture. But be aware that you cannot take accurate Rockwell readings on the edge bevels of a knife. Practice, practice, practice and then heat treat some test coupons with steps ground into them to check you heat treating process.

I personally find the most useful knife test to be in cutting things, that is after all what it is all about. Cut a wide range of things, cardboard, leather, wood etc… and see how the edge wears. A test with a brass rod that I like better than flexing is chopping! Take a good whack at a brass rod and see how the edge handles it. This will tell you a whole lot about your edge geometry as well as how much impact toughness your process is giving to the blades.

I hope this all helps.
 
thank you very much Kevin, That was the info I was looking for,

One other thing, I am doing stock removal on these metals, Do I still have to normalize before heat treat?
 
Kevin, thank you for the detailed post. I've read the linked articles and they leave out some details. My first project is of .25" 1084 so I'm most interested in this topic.
 
thank you very much Kevin, That was the info I was looking for,

One other thing, I am doing stock removal on these metals, Do I still have to normalize before heat treat?

Stock removal does simplify matters quite a bit. All that you may need to worry about is a good stress relieve- heat to dull red a couple of times and call it good. Of course you have heard all the silly claims by us bladesmiths about forging improving the steel, well it is in the thermal cycles that any of this can hope to be realized, so after you get the hang of things you could try normalizing cycles on the raw stock or finished blade and paly with grains structure and carbides. But right now you are better off learning the ropes with the steel in a know condition right from the mill. And any thermal treaments you may do , beyond stres relief, can mess with the anneal the steel had from the mill, resulting in a lot of wear and tear on your mills, drills and other tools.
 
Kevin, thank you for the detailed post. I've read the linked articles and they leave out some details. My first project is of .25" 1084 so I'm most interested in this topic.

1/4" x 1" 1084 is the stuff I would highly recommend any new maker to start with, it is very hard to go wrong with that stuff regardless of your skill level. Bladesmithing is an ancient craft that was based on very simple iron/carbon steels, it had faded into obscurity by the time intentional alloying was introduced to steel making, and alloying changed everything, our steels are simply not the steels the ancients developed their tools and techniques for. It is the failure to recognize this simple point that has caused endless grief and misinformation for modern bladesmithing.

1084 is very close to those simple steels that the forge and a really good eye were so good at working with.
 
Kevin,

Thanks for chiming in here ! You answered several of my questions before I asked them.

-Josh
 
Great info!
I'm using 1084 and the McMaster quench oil and heating in a Diamondback propane forge for my 1st HT. So this is all very helpful.

Quick question about the thermal cycles.
My steel came to me normalized. I annealed it (to the best of my ability. Heated to non-mag in my fire pit, let it slow cool buried in the ashes overnight), then began stock removal on it.
Should I run it through another heat cycle before my HT? If I do, will I get a ton of scale on the blade?

Also... what about the tempering? Is 2-3 heats at 400° a good benchmark for the 1084?
I bought an electronic thermometer and a couple high heat probes, so I *should* be able to control the heat with some degree of accuracy.

Thanks!
-Wade
 
I'm wondering the same thing as Wade now. I'm about to do a stock removal 1084 blade... only 1/8". Thus far I have not normalized before my quench. Is this typically done on stock removal blades????
 
Thanks Kevin !! This, along with a bunch of stuff from Stacy and numerous others is going straight to my printer and then to my paper reference archives.
 
Great info!
I'm using 1084 and the McMaster quench oil and heating in a Diamondback propane forge for my 1st HT. So this is all very helpful.

Quick question about the thermal cycles.
My steel came to me normalized. I annealed it (to the best of my ability. Heated to non-mag in my fire pit, let it slow cool buried in the ashes overnight), then began stock removal on it.
Should I run it through another heat cycle before my HT? If I do, will I get a ton of scale on the blade?

Also... what about the tempering? Is 2-3 heats at 400° a good benchmark for the 1084?
I bought an electronic thermometer and a couple high heat probes, so I *should* be able to control the heat with some degree of accuracy.

Thanks!
-Wade

Will you get scale… well that all depends. How good are you? What kind of atmosphere control will you have? What temp will you go to? How long will you take?

My advice is that if you have the blade down to a nice finish and are not really confident that you can improve on things without making more work for yourself, you should go with what you have. A good majority of stock removal makers go right with the condition the steel was in initially and I wouldn’t have any issue buying most of there blades for heavy use, in fact if I had the bucks to collect knives for serious using there would probably be more of these stock removal blades in my collection. There are hundreds of things that can go wrong every time you heat steel up and only a few that can help, so it is pretty clear where the odds rest. The only things that can skew those odds are skill and knowledge of the smith. If these are some of your first knives get them fully hard and cutting well and be happy! Save the neurotic, extra 1% property tweaking until you have enough of the pretty good knives under your belt to go in search of new frontiers. The vast majority of knife uses will never push a blade far enough to even notice these differences, otherwise a whole lot of common bladesmithing practices would reveal themselves more than they do.

On the tempering, it would depend on what you will be using he knife for. For larger chopping knives 400F at least, for small fine slicers that will need to hold and edge 375F-400F may be enough as long as the knife will be used appropriately for its intended use. I like to do two or three cycles, but with 1084 it should not really be necessary.
 
OK, now I'm wondering if I'm wasting time and effort here! I'm pretty sure I'm not hurting anything (though it'd be nice to be VERY sure!) but I'm no longer sure I'm not wasting effort either...

Kevin,

You mentioned above that only the first of the three heats you were describing could actually be called normalizing, but that bladesmiths tended to call all three normalizing...

Whenever I read or heard "triple normalize" I interpreted that to mean three full heats into solution (I'm using Aldo's 1084, so I'm not as worried about soak as I am about grain growth) with as even an air cool as I can give, all the way down to room temp. THEN I will heat using a magnet, until the magnet starts to lose its sticky, but if I'm being slow and careful, I won't be watching shadows dance just yet. THEN I'll go for a dull red. that's five heats total, not three! (although I gotta admit that I'm not having drilling problems anymore!)

Being that I'm doing this all by eye in a forge with great atmospheric control, but no temperature reading, I tend to hold the knife by the blade end with the tongs (usually the tip third or so of the blade) and get he tang up to temp first, trying to let the heat bleed down towards the delicate tip. With my forge putting along at about 1.5 to 2 psi, it takes awhile of in... out, to get up to temp!

However, since I'm doing this by eye, I'm probably overshooting my desired temperature by some amount anyhow, and this makes me wonder now if the first normalization is about as good as I'm going to get? I try not to obsess over grain size, but I've heard you repeat variations on the phrase "There are hundreds of things that can go wrong every time you heat steel up and only a few that can help, so it is pretty clear where the odds rest." so much that I do worry about runaway grain growth...
 
It's good to see you posting, Dan. You were in my thoughts over the last several months.

Have you made a couple of test pieces to snap open and see how your results are turning out?
 
Hey Matt! I appreciate knowing that, more than I'm ablt to express, Thank you!

Yes, I've broken a few open, and the grain looks to be very even in size, but frankly, I don't have the experience with looking at grains to know exactly what I'm looking at. They could be just about perfect, or monstrous glom big, but without some perspective, I'd be hard pressed to know the difference by site.
 
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