?'s about treating 1095 and 1084

[skilldust]

Kevin cashen,


you da man

 

[Tai Goo]

whenever anybody tells you that you can have a deeper understanding of your craft by limiting your knowledge, the absurdity of the conversation should be self evident. QUOTE]

I agree with you. For a deeper understanding, I think science and knowledge are the ticket. Physics doesn't lie.

Maybe but,... you can't get "intelligence" or "wisdom" from science or knowledge.

As far as knowledge goes, as it relates to hand made knives,… you really have to look at other fields of knowledge as well as science,… art, philosophy (aesthetics), design, math, culture, history, etc…

Try to look at as much of the entire knowledge base as you can and "round out your understanding",… before you make any personal decisions.

Get all seven chakras firing at once not just the lower ones.

 

[Dan Zawacki]

Maybe but,... you can't get "intelligence" or "wisdom" from science or knowledge.

As far as knowledge goes, as it relates to hand made knives,… you really have to look at other fields of knowledge as well as science,… art, philosophy (aesthetics), design, math, culture, history, etc…

Try to look at as much of the entire knowledge base as you can and "round out your understanding",… before you make any personal decisions.

Get all seven chakras firing at once not just the lower ones.

That may be so, but nobody's arguing that when designing a knife for a particular use that it's form should be strictly dictated by some scientific formula. How it feels to the hand, and handles in its desired task can be an awfully personal thing. What is pleasing to the senses and asthetically well proportioned is also not something that "science" will be able to tell you a lot about.

However, nobody asked those sorts of questions in here. This thread was a bout heat treating 1084 and 1095.

Intelligence AND wisdom demand, then, that we look to those who have the greatest experience in achieving exactly what we want from our steel.

As much as you, or anyone else may not like it, heavy industry and materials science have long long ago surpassed by several orders of magnitude the experience of any knifemaker in making simple steels do all manner of things, the simplist and least of which is be really good at being a sharp bladed cutting tool.

Intelligence AND wisdom, therefore demand that we take to heart the lessons learned by those who have come before us, and have parsed out the broad and well lit roadmap of knowledge that can tell us "if you want this, that and thus, you will manipulate A, B, and C for X, Y and Z reasons".

There is no shame in standing on the shoulders of giants. They have reached their own lofty heights for the express purpose of giving the rest of us a high vantage point on which to stand!

Artistry, creativity, and self expression are paramount in shaping the steel to your will, making your own vision manifest in cold, hard, keen, reality. However, if that expression is to serve as a functional and useful tool, then the other half of your brain and spirit must also be engaged. The cold, logical progression of properties, facts, and processes is an expressive dance unto itself. A high minded, cereberal dance, perhapse, and one you may have a distaste for (though you're good enough at it when you want to be - that's nothing to be embarrassed about), but an expressive series of decisions nonetheless.

I therefore have to ask, why it is, (out of sheer curiosity on my part) that you insist on continually derailing conversations that were specifically focused on an admittadly narrow portion of what is admittadly a much larger topic. Maybe it seems to you that the rest of the craft, the spirit and artistry is too oft ignored in favor of the cereberal, cold, and logical side, which seems to you to be dead and finite?

Or maybe you just have a persona grudge with anyone who thinks that their own expressive work could be improved by the inclusion of some of the sense of permanency (illusiory though it may be) and mastery (in perhapse too narrow a way to be properly called such) that may be had by ensuring that they leverage the knowledge of those who have come before them to what they percieve as their greatest benefit?

Folks like Kevin and Robert have done a great deal to shorten the learning curve for a great many of us. Many of us, myself included, were it not for their tirelessly answering the same series of basic questions over, and over, and over again, would have a great deal of difficulty making a knife that was worth a damn. As it is, I have a great deal of confindence in the cutting ability of my knives. Why? because -I- made them, and I've done some pretty decent homework. Often, it was those cereberally minded individuals that have shown me which direction would be fruitful for me to work towards. More often than not, however, when I find myself stuck, unable to reason out the cause for the failure of what I knew -should- have worked, it's these same well read and learned individuals who are able to point out right where the hole in my own homework was. If they don't give me the answer outright, they show me where to go look.

For example, when I had a big vanadium carbide chink eating my drill bits, your artsy chakras couldn't have done a damn thing to help me get that hole drilled where I wanted it. Being reminded that Aldo's last batch of 1084 had Vanadium in it, on the other hand, did exactly that.

So again, since nobody was trying to argue that art, instinct, self expression, and beauty were inappropriate in the practice of making knives, why, then, do you feel the need to come into a Q/A session about heat treating and blow out the topic to include the generally irrelevant?

Sure, look at as much of the body of knowledge as possible. Why not? No problem there. However, to do so "before" you make any decisions. I'm sorry, but that's a rediculous proposition. We, as a species know more about steel, know more about knives, and know more about asthetics than I, as an individual, could possibly absorb in a lifetime, or could begin to retain, even were I to absorb it!

I say, look at the relevant portions of the body of knowledge as you learn and grow. When I want to know about making the steel I'm working hard and resiliant, you can bet I'm not going to be burning insence, meditating about it, and hoping a creative answer will work my magic for me. You can bet I'll be reading, asking questions, and generally trying my darndest to get up on the shoulders of those giants, so I can see the way ahead!

 

[sunshadow]

I have been a professional artist in one genre or another for 30 years, as a photographer, as a goldsmith, as an actor, and as a musician in addition to bladesmithing. In photography school I became disgusted with the "Fine Art Photography" major I was in because there was no perceived value given to craftsmanship. Prints were put on the wall with dust spots, fixer stains, scratchmarks evident in the negatives. If there was an artistic vision somewhere in the morass of crap on the wall it was entirely hidden behind a wall of sloppiness. Critiques were a series of prepubescent personal attacks rather than a discussion of the merits of the work on the wall. I switched to advertising because there was a standard of craftsmanship that allowed the purity of the art to come through, and creativity abounded. People gained control of the medium and used it effectively.
Knifemaking is the same way. Knifemaking is an art, mastering the subtleties of the medium (forging, HEAT TREATING, and all of of the other aspects allow one to refine and excel in that vision) Anything less than controlling as many variables as possible to produce that perfect vision is equivalent to having a big fixer stain that will slowly eat a hole in the paper on a photograph. There really is no excuse for not taking the time and care to give your blades the best most consistent heat treat possible... anything less is like going on stage without learning your lines and blocking.

-Page

 

[SShepherd]

I have been a professional artist in one genre or another for 30 years, as a photographer, as a goldsmith, as an actor, and as a musician in addition to bladesmithing. In photography school I became disgusted with the "Fine Art Photography" major I was in because there was no perceived value given to craftsmanship. Prints were put on the wall with dust spots, fixer stains, scratchmarks evident in the negatives. If there was an artistic vision somewhere in the morass of crap on the wall it was entirely hidden behind a wall of sloppiness. Critiques were a series of prepubescent personal attacks rather than a discussion of the merits of the work on the wall. I switched to advertising because there was a standard of craftsmanship that allowed the purity of the art to come through, and creativity abounded. People gained control of the medium and used it effectively.
Knifemaking is the same way. Knifemaking is an art, mastering the subtleties of the medium (forging, HEAT TREATING, and all of of the other aspects allow one to refine and excel in that vision) Anything less than controlling as many variables as possible to produce that perfect vision is equivalent to having a big fixer stain that will slowly eat a hole in the paper on a photograph. There really is no excuse for not taking the time and care to give your blades the best most consistent heat treat possible... anything less is like going on stage without learning your lines and blocking.

-Page

Fantastic post

 

[R.C.Reichert]

I want to use 1095 but all I have is a propane forge and no controlled oven to do a real accurate soak on the steel. Is there a way I can still do this in my forge? What if I just turned the heat down a bit and moved the blade back and forth while it stays slightly above non-magnetic or at a uniform color? I could probably get a pretty even heat all through the blade and hold it for 5 mins or so. Would this be alright or what?

 

[sunshadow]

I want to use 1095 but all I have is a propane forge and no controlled oven to do a real accurate soak on the steel. Is there a way I can still do this in my forge? What if I just turned the heat down a bit and moved the blade back and forth while it stays slightly above non-magnetic or at a uniform color? I could probably get a pretty even heat all through the blade and hold it for 5 mins or so. Would this be alright or what?

Is there a reason why you want specifically to use 1095? (500 pounds sitting your basement, you like the black etch the manganese gives you, you want a shallow hardening steel with a fast and furious pearlite nose so you can get some screaming hamons etc?)
I have seen some folks use a propane forge and wave the blade in and out to try to maintain an even color, and I have seen people put a thermocouple in a muffle in a propane forge and manually try to cowboy a roughly steady equilibrium temperature in the muffle by using air and pressure controls, it's not ideal, and frankly kind of a lot of work, and if you muck it up you've kinda ruined the blade, but it's doable. Myself, I'd go with 1080-1084 and make life easy until you can step up to a more controlable heat treat setup. I made my life easy many years ago and bought a lab surplus electric kiln for small blades, I can use my burnout kiln for larger blades. Swords I'm probably going to pay someone with a salt pot long enough until I can afford my own salt setup.

-Page

 

[R.C.Reichert]

Is there a reason why you want specifically to use 1095? (500 pounds sitting your basement, you like the black etch the manganese gives you, you want a shallow hardening steel with a fast and furious pearlite nose so you can get some screaming hamons etc?)
I have seen some folks use a propane forge and wave the blade in and out to try to maintain an even color, and I have seen people put a thermocouple in a muffle in a propane forge and manually try to cowboy a roughly steady equilibrium temperature in the muffle by using air and pressure controls, it's not ideal, and frankly kind of a lot of work, and if you muck it up you've kinda ruined the blade, but it's doable. Myself, I'd go with 1080-1084 and make life easy until you can step up to a more controlable heat treat setup. I made my life easy many years ago and bought a lab surplus electric kiln for small blades, I can use my burnout kiln for larger blades. Swords I'm probably going to pay someone with a salt pot long enough until I can afford my own salt setup.

-Page

What if I can't get 1080 in the size I need to forge? Sure I can get O1, maybe some 5160.... if I'm lucky, but there are variables with those steels as well I'm told....O1 needs a soak and specific temperature control and I've heard 5160 needs a soak as well to get a really good blade. I just have a really hard time getting those "eutectoid" steels around here. 1095 is always in stock and comes in the sizes I need. I am getting so frustrated with this...maybe I'd have just as much luck going to the scrap yard and getting a bunch of random leaf springs. If it's likely my knives won't turn out right anyways, then what's the point of using a known steel? Sorry, I just don't know what to do anymore. I put out so much money into getting the anvil, the belt grinder and everything else, I don't have the means to get a special oven now too yet.

 

[R.C.Reichert]

About every steel company around here has O1 or 4140 or 52100, but no good "eutectoid" steels for a beginner to use. Ranger Original has 1080 in 1/8" thickness, but that doesn't help me if I want to forge bowie blades.

 

[sunshadow]

I've gotten my 1084 from Aldo in 1 1/2x 1/4

njsteelbaron@gmail.com

email him and see if he has any left from the last batch he did. The stuff forges beautifully and his prices are great. Every time he does up a batch I try to buy at least 50-100 pounds from him. KellyCupples has 1084 too, but I think only in thin stock

octihunter@charter.net

Tracey Mickley might have some 1084 (USA Knifemaker supply) but if Aldo has it he's your best source

-Page

 

[R.C.Reichert]

I've gotten my 1084 from Aldo in 1 1/2x 1/4

njsteelbaron@gmail.com

email him and see if he has any left from the last batch he did. The stuff forges beautifully and his prices are great. Every time he does up a batch I try to buy at least 50-100 pounds from him. KellyCupples has 1084 too, but I think only in thin stock

octihunter@charter.net

Tracey Mickley might have some 1084 (USA Knifemaker supply) but if Aldo has it he's your best source

-Page

Can I get these steels shipped to Canada?

 

[Justin King]

I say if you want to use 1095, use it. Just be aware that you will probably not be getting perfect HT' s right off the bat. It is not impossible to have good control in a propane forge but it takes practice and experimentation. Give yourself some time to get there. If your sensibilities still tell you that you need more precision, then be patient and learn what you can while you save up for an oven. I have been in this position for a while now myself but it has not stopped my learning progression and I have turned out some blades which are perfectly functional if not world-class.
If you are in this to please the forum members then you are not likely to enjoy the pursuit anyway. If you are in it for yourself, because you want to make knives and are willing to learn, then learn, and improve as you go.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Mr. Reichert, you should be able to work with the 1095 with your tools, if you are very careful and follow a few of the rules that alloy sets for you. I could actually hear the collective gasp across the bladesmithing world when you suggested that you may not maximize 5160 without an accurate soak, but I do agree with you. But I don’t mean to imply that a knife that would meet most expectations could not be made by heating to nonmagnetic in a forge and immediately quenching, obviously it has happened. But I am very sure that for edge holding 1084 or 1095 would do much better. What you would miss with any of these rather simple steels with just a forge and other simple tools to work them is probably not within the range of what most people do with their knives. As I said before, if we really demanded as much from our knife steels that so many believe, the majority of the unorthodox and substandard things that bladesmiths practice would have revealed their shortcomings long ago.

I would say your best bet in getting the most out of 1095 with your tools is in the thermal treatments prior to you quench in order to set it up for that operation. Normalize carefully and avoid overly slow cooling. Quench to trap the carbon in solution and then anneal by heating to dull red and never allowing it to lose it magnetism. This will give you small grains with very fine carbides well dispersed throughout. If these carbides are fine enough, on your hardening heat treatment 50F hotter than nonmagnetic should very quickly pull at least .6% into solution allowing for a good 65HRC, but still leaving the core of those fine carbides right there to give you excellent abrasion resistance.

Many bladesmiths would read what I have written here and tell you it is hogwash, that all these special considerations are unnecessary, and yet I have seen many great steels like 1095 marginalized or bad mouthed by the same people. There are no bad steels, there are only improper applications or heat treatments. For edge holding 1095 should easily trounce 5160 or 1084, but not if you heat threat it like those steels. If a smith uses the exact same heat treatments for every steel he gets his hands on it sort of stands to reason that eventually he will stumble on one that responds adequately, while he finds the rest rather disappointing. That is the pitfall of just following a recipe instead of learning about the alloys you are working, it is just unfortunate that so many of those folks get away with badmouthing really good steels that they inadequate in heat treating. By the way this is not in response to any of Pages very good comments, as Page is well aware of the disservice that has been done to perfectly good steels by the proclamation of outspoken smiths who didn’t even give them a chance with their methods.

 

[R.C.Reichert]

I say if you want to use 1095, use it. Just be aware that you will probably not be getting perfect HT' s right off the bat. It is not impossible to have good control in a propane forge but it takes practice and experimentation. Give yourself some time to get there. If your sensibilities still tell you that you need more precision, then be patient and learn what you can while you save up for an oven. I have been in this position for a while now myself but it has not stopped my learning progression and I have turned out some blades which are perfectly functional if not world-class.
If you are in this to please the forum members then you are not likely to enjoy the pursuit anyway. If you are in it for yourself, because you want to make knives and are willing to learn, then learn, and improve as you go.

That sounds like good advice to me, and thank you for that. I have tested my blades and even with my not-so-perfect heat treating methods, my knives still cut well, hold an edge, and overall perform better than the majority of "manufactured" knives that are sold in the stores around here. Maybe I'm not doing so bad for a beginner.

 

[R.C.Reichert]

Mr. Reichert, you should be able to work with the 1095 with your tools, if you are very careful and follow a few of the rules that alloy sets for you. I could actually hear the collective gasp across the bladesmithing world when you suggested that you may not maximize 5160 without an accurate soak, but I do agree with you. But I don’t mean to imply that a knife that would meet most expectations could not be made by heating to nonmagnetic in a forge and immediately quenching, obviously it has happened. But I am very sure that for edge holding 1084 or 1095 would do much better. What you would miss with any of these rather simple steels with just a forge and other simple tools to work them is probably not within the range of what most people do with their knives. As I said before, if we really demanded as much from our knife steels that so many believe, the majority of the unorthodox and substandard things that bladesmiths practice would have revealed their shortcomings long ago.

I would say your best bet in getting the most out of 1095 with your tools is in the thermal treatments prior to you quench in order to set it up for that operation. Normalize carefully and avoid overly slow cooling. Quench to trap the carbon in solution and then anneal by heating to dull red and never allowing it to lose it magnetism. This will give you small grains with very fine carbides well dispersed throughout. If these carbides are fine enough, on your hardening heat treatment 50F hotter than nonmagnetic should very quickly pull at least .6% into solution allowing for a good 65HRC, but still leaving the core of those fine carbides right there to give you excellent abrasion resistance.

Many bladesmiths would read what I have written here and tell you it is hogwash, that all these special considerations are unnecessary, and yet I have seen many great steels like 1095 marginalized or bad mouthed by the same people. There are no bad steels, there are only improper applications or heat treatments. For edge holding 1095 should easily trounce 5160 or 1084, but not if you heat threat it like those steels. If a smith uses the exact same heat treatments for every steel he gets his hands on it sort of stands to reason that eventually he will stumble on one that responds adequately, while he finds the rest rather disappointing. That is the pitfall of just following a recipe instead of learning about the alloys you are working, it is just unfortunate that so many of those folks get away with badmouthing really good steels that they inadequate in heat treating. By the way this is not in response to any of Pages very good comments, as Page is well aware of the disservice that has been done to perfectly good steels by the proclamation of outspoken smiths who didn’t even give them a chance with their methods.

Thank you Mr. Cashen. The part in bold...not sure I follow exactly, but I think I'll figure it out.

 

[sunshadow]

Thank you Mr. Cashen. The part in bold...not sure I follow exactly, but I think I'll figure it out.

in these micros the big reddish stuff is pearlite that formed as the 1095 air cooled. Pearlite is a harmful carbide formation in which the carbon comes out of solution and forms flat brittle sheets that have no strength but are hard enough to ruin drillbits and make grinding difficult. Once pearlite forms it is hard to get it back into solution, carbon does not like to let go of carbon which is why graphite is so stable.
I believe what Kevin is saying is to heat the steel up to get your carbon into solution (the idea of doing the soak) and then quench it to force the carbides to stay small and useful, then normalize it by doing a few reheats at successively lower temperatures followed by a quench to allow your carbon to diffuse evenly (carbon will move around in solid state below critical temperatures) and that will set up your carbon to go easily into solution quickly when it's time for your heat treat, shortening your soak time. You need to get your steel into the quench quickly from heat treat using an oil that will quench it quickly before pearlite forms

hope this helps. I'm sure Kevin or Mete will correct me on anything I got wrong

-Page

 

[Dan Zawacki]

That sounds like good advice to me, and thank you for that. I have tested my blades and even with my not-so-perfect heat treating methods, my knives still cut well, hold an edge, and overall perform better than the majority of "manufactured" knives that are sold in the stores around here. Maybe I'm not doing so bad for a beginner.

There's your answer right there!

Until you can recover from your initial expense, and have the time, money, and inclination to build or buy some more controllable HT equipment, it sounds like your knives are performing just dandy! Nothing wrong with incorporating some of the great advice you've been getting while you can, but don't fret the small stuff too much!

 

[Tai Goo]

Dan, Sorry if my last post seemed out of place to you, but I get the feeling from his posts that R.C is struggling with some things other than pure metallurgy and trying to make some big picture decisions as well. The thread had gone off on tangents before I tagged on. I was mainly responding to the post of his I quoted, which I read as suggesting or leaning towards "scientism", which is a "philosophical position".

I don't have any problem with the pure or true science on this thread. You need to understand that part of it as well as the philosophical and ideological etc. As Kevin seemed to imply,... don't limit your knowledge.

 

[Dan Zawacki]

Don't apologise to me, of all people! I just get too twisted up about why people do the things they do, and don't have enough sense not to ask. Although, I didn't take the post you quoted under the same interpretation you seem to have. I thought it was aimed in a completely different direction!

 

[Tai Goo]

Dan, I'm not sure I interpreted it correctly myself, but it "seemed" that way to me. I'm sure we all read things a bit different. There is a lot more I could say to try and clarify my position, but don't feel it's necessary at this point.

The only thing I question about the formula or “recipe” Kevin gave in his last post is that it may be a bit more likely to result in a warped blade. So, you need to balance what happens with the micro structures against what happens with the macro structure,… and just do what you can with any given set of circumstances or variables. At that point you may have to be a little “creative” and make a few compromises.