S&W Talon hole?!?!?!

[Sethrotull]

Ok when did S&W come out with the CKSURG?

 

[David Brown]

Wow they knocked off Dork-Ops, who knocked off Extrema Ratio.

Intellectual Property thieves are everywhere............sickening, no honor at all when someone rips off your design.

Just disgusting.

 

[motts]

Haha! First thing that came to mind too was Dork Ops.

 

[Bowman1911]

Wow they knocked off Dork-Ops, who knocked off Extrema Ratio.

Intellectual Property thieves are everywhere............sickening, no honor at all when someone rips off your design.

Just disgusting.

Amen brother! Amen!

 

[M67]

I emailed Lexi a long time ago about Taylor cutlery

 

[shrapnelwound]

Lots of companies and custom makers use the talon hole.....

 

[Sethrotull]

Lots of companies and custom makers use the talon hole.....

Not legally!

 

[suttond]

I know some people who copied the Donut Hole, we should go after them also.

 

[DNA strand]

I know some people who copied the Donut Hole, we should go after them also.

Yeah this place gets pretty silly when someone puts a hole in the wrong place. As if its the hole that makes a busse a busse. Jerry makes good quality knives and tha'ts what I believe the brand is built on not the hole. Hole or no hole, my Busse can chop that S&W in half!

 

[KnifeAddictAK]

I know some people who copied the Donut Hole, we should go after them also.

Yeah this place gets pretty silly when someone puts a hole in the wrong place. As if its the hole that makes a busse a busse. Jerry makes good quality knives and tha'ts what I believe the brand is built on not the hole. Hole or no hole, my Busse can chop that S&W in half!

By these statements, then I should be allowed to download completed papers that someone else wrote and turn them in as my own and earn my bachelors degree this way? I mean, it's just intellectual property, right? I think then that everyone should use Spyderco's trademark hole opener and not bother to apply for permission (licensing) from Spyderco, right?

I'm not attempting to be sarcastic, but this is how I view the issue. The talon hole is a trademark of Jerry Busse and he put in the effort to create it and trademark it. It is a registered trademark and anyone using it without permission is in the wrong. Now many may not realize that it is a registered trademark and those that do this usually end up talking to Jerry and everything is worked out (Usually knifemakers). As for the mentioned knife, it is difficult to create a new knife design as countless have come before them, but to copy an almost identical pattern of another maker, while using a patented trademark from another company is just flat out wrong. There is respect among many in the knife making community and they ask for permission or license certain features such as the Spydercole hole, Emerson Wave, or the Busse Talon Hole.

Just my 2 cents and not so much as being "silly" as it is standing behind a friend who happens to run a big knife company. Jerry is a friend to many of us and we take care of our own in many aspects. Not fan-boy'ism but family

 

[JDieseljoe69]

By these statements, then I should be allowed to download completed papers that someone else wrote and turn them in as my own and earn my bachelors degree this way? I mean, it's just intellectual property, right? I think then that everyone should use Spyderco's trademark hole opener and not bother to apply for permission (licensing) from Spyderco, right?

I'm not attempting to be sarcastic, but this is how I view the issue. The talon hole is a trademark of Jerry Busse and he put in the effort to create it and trademark it. It is a registered trademark and anyone using it without permission is in the wrong. Now many may not realize that it is a registered trademark and those that do this usually end up talking to Jerry and everything is worked out (Usually knifemakers). As for the mentioned knife, it is difficult to create a new knife design as countless have come before them, but to copy an almost identical pattern of another maker, while using a patented trademark from another company is just flat out wrong. There is respect among many in the knife making community and they ask for permission or license certain features such as the Spydercole hole, Emerson Wave, or the Busse Talon Hole.

Just my 2 cents and not so much as being "silly" as it is standing behind a friend who happens to run a big knife company. Jerry is a friend to many of us and we take care of our own in many aspects. Not fan-boy'ism but family

I know the Talon hole is Trade Marked, is there any makers/manufactures that are allowed to use it, legally? More than anything it's my curiosity, I have seen a few custom makers that had one on a knife.

Edit to add- I know I could do a quick search, but how is it trademarked? The placement, hole size, etc..?

 

[uyotg]

I know I could do a quick search, but how is it trademarked? The placement, hole size, etc..?

I think it's just the placement. The unbranded name is a "front guard hole." However I can't seem to find it in the trademark registry anymore.

 

[David Brown]

You know there are 1000's of ways to make a knife not using the talon hole, 1000's of ways.

The same as far as writing or painting a picture 1000's of ways to create a picture or a thought.

Why would someone steal a design of someone else ? Lack of creativity ? Laziness or Slothfulness ? Greed of trying to steal customers from someone ? Selfishness (part of the ME movement) ? all could be the reasons.

It is a sad day indeed when the intellectual property thief has to be threatened with legal ramifications for stealing said intellectual property & even then they do not stop stealing the design.

Gentleman's agreements and the word of a man seam to be a dying thing in this world, no wonder it is a little messed up.

How about instead of pointing out the folly of someone trying to protect their intellectual property, Or defend the honor-less hack that rips off someone. We support those creative people that originate something or have a certain style that is uniquely their own.

Just a thought

I support Jerry Busse he is an original

 

[DNA strand]

By these statements, then I should be allowed to download completed papers that someone else wrote and turn them in as my own and earn my bachelors degree this way? I mean, it's just intellectual property, right?

I think that scenario is more likened to S&W buying a Busse and stamping their name on it. This, to me, is more like saying "I did my paper on *pick a subject*, so you can't do a paper on the same thing!"

I understand what you are saying and the law is the law. Legally S&W is wrong for that, but if I was making a knife I would put a hole there because its a really good idea and very useful in certain situations. I don't think they chose to do that with the intention of benefiting from Jerry's success or the brand that he has built. I think trademarks are about protecting your identity and preventing people from producing cheap imitations and selling them as the real thing, not to stifle the creativity of other knife makers. It's kind of like a car company trademarking the look of putting a headlight on both the left and right side of a car...its just the best place to put them so thats where everyone puts them, no one is acting out of malice or trying copy anyone elses design. Really we should be arguing the fact that the totally ripped off extrema ratio's look, which is much more blatant to me.

Really it comes down to semantics. The law says you must stop at a red light, but the whole idea behind traffic lights would be to regulate traffic...and if I am sitting at a redlight at midnight for 10 minutes while not seeing another car on the road the whole time I feel silly. I think this is where discretion comes in and a cop should say now that there is no traffic there is no need to obey the system designed to regulate traffic, but by the books it is illegal and ticket-able.

I don't mean to be confrontational, and all of these company producing blatant rip offs and trying to use Jerry's brand to sell cheap knives to people need to be stopped, whoever is producing those fake Busse AK-47s needs to be stopped, but a company who designed a knife that has a hole in the guard might not be as big of a deal. It just seems like people get excited when they find another knife with a hole in the guard and rush to post it here, and from there its like kicking a hornets nest. I think we need to see the difference between a useful design feature and a company that designs a knife to look a certain way with the intention of drawing on another company image or reputation. That's all, and I hope I don't offend anyone as that is not my intention.

 

[KnifeAddictAK]

I think the fact that companies intentionally rip off other makers designs is pathetic regardless if they are U.S. companies or Chinese companies. In regards to the blatant copy of Extreme Ratio/Dark Ops, I would contact them but they are no doubt aware of it and either cannot do anything about it or have just let it go. Unfortunately, there are so many that the U.S. customs agency is not preventing their entry. I believe the reason for focusing solely on the talon hole is because of the forum we are in. It's specific to Jerry and company and that's why that particular feature is pointed out. We could bash other companies, but that is a big no-no straight from Jerry. We do not bash or bad mouth other makers or knives on here.

Regarding the "Kool-aid" or fan-boy terms or appeared mentality (None used in this thread), I can understand why people may feel that and sometimes loyalty can be mistaken for fan-boy'ism. We here on the forum have hung out with the crew at the shows and had numerous conversations with the crew and other customers. So when things come up that are infringing on anything Busse Combat, then we tend to be defensive or wanting to point these things out to Busse Combat so they can handle the situation personally (As they always do). The forum, like others, becomes like a family as opposed to some distant company that is very stale and lacks such personal interaction. Hence why some may feel the forumites here are "silly" and such. As for finding Trademark infringements and posting them here, I agree it would be nice if they were emailed to Jerry and crew so we can avoid these type of threads and just drink (Mt. Dew for me right now)

Again, just my 2 cents and in this economy that will get you a sniff of gas :thumbup:

 

[KnifeAddictAK]

I know the Talon hole is Trade Marked, is there any makers/manufactures that are allowed to use it, legally? More than anything it's my curiosity, I have seen a few custom makers that had one on a knife.

Edit to add- I know I could do a quick search, but how is it trademarked? The placement, hole size, etc..?

I think it's just the placement. The unbranded name is a "front guard hole." However I can't seem to find it in the trademark registry anymore.

I'm not sure if any makers have talked with Jerry about using the talon hole or not to be honest. I'm just a Busse fan that has too much free time lately As for the talon hole, I would agree with uyotg's post quoted above. For example, I believe the Kiku Matsuda (probably butchered his name, AWESOME knives) does a lower hole but is not considered an infringement if I am thinking correctly (Different style hole placement maybe?).

These are just my thoughts and I hope that I am not misspoken on anything as I'm just a guy, not connect to Busse in any way except for liking the knives and loving the people

 

[Raging Rhino]

I wish somebody would have trademarked zombie green blades... Now it seems that everyone has jumped on that trendy bandwagon...

 

[Doubletrouble]

I sit back and read the threads that are posted here for information and education and sometimes I reply this is one of those times. I think Mr Busse is just a little thin skinned and needs to look at this issue in a different light. Take a look at Kleenex Tissue, or Ketchup or even in this case a knife blade with a hole in it. The companies that make products and then others copy it have the advantage of being the first and the inventor of a great idea. Now most of these companies allow the use of these ideas with no licenses or agreements for one reason FREE ADVERTISING! If knifemakers use the hole then when they advertise they need to say the Busse Talon Hole or something that describes this feature linking it to the inventor. Think about other items used in knife making; liner loc, assisted opening, Corby Bolts, Loveless Bolts, JP Bolts ect. we all use them, some of us make them. Are we all licensed for this NO! By calling those pieces of hardware by their name we are honoring and giving credit to the inventor FREE ADVERTISING for the inventor (s). The Trademark for this hole tells us it has no use other that branding / decoration. What if someone wants to name it something else and actually put a use for that hole, are they actually violating Trademark? An interesting question that has an answer: "NO" but isn't it better for knifemakers to keep it simple and give Busse knives a bit of FREE ADVERTISING and Mr. Busse gives a bit of good will to the knife making community that he is a part of. I think we all need to more like the original men that brought knife-making to all of us, by sharing processes, ideas, styles and maybe even that little hole in the blade.

 

[azwelke]

I would bet Jerry never asked George Washington Sears' family for permission to use the "Muk" design..... Just because Daimler made the first pick up truck, that didn't stop Ford, General Motors, or Chrysler. Daimler also made the first motorcycle, that didn't stop Harley Davidson.... You can own your design, But Not the concept. This is a Free America, and I dis like the idea of controlling other people....

and BTW I think Jerry is a wonderful person

 

[leatherman]

For those that area confused about trademarking a "hole" and such (Nike Swoosh is another good example) Here is an excellent read about "Non Conventional Trademarks"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-conventional_trademark

Copy some of these for your product and you'll end up in a poor house. But, it appears by some of the thinking in this thread that it makes said company's bad people because they protect their property.