S&W Talon hole?!?!?!

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I personally think that the fact that there are so many Busse customers who are as protective about the talon hole as Jerry is speaks volumes about the knives, the company, and the owners.

If it was a Cold Steel, Spyderco, Strider, or just about any other maker's trademark, I just wouldn't care so much, except for the intellectual acknowledgement of a business' right to protect its trademarks. But when it comes to Busse I take it personally.

I usually just send Jerry an E-Mail about infringements I run across, and have done that as recently as last evening. (Not about the knife in this thread, either.)
 
Doubletrouble said:
I sit back and read the threads that are posted here for information and education and sometimes I reply this is one of those times. I think Mr Busse is just a little thin skinned and needs to look at this issue in a different light. Take a look at Kleenex Tissue, or Ketchup or even in this case a knife blade with a hole in it. The companies that make products and then others copy it have the advantage of being the first and the inventor of a great idea. Now most of these companies allow the use of these ideas with no licenses or agreements for one reason FREE ADVERTISING! If knifemakers use the hole then when they advertise they need to say the Busse Talon Hole or something that describes this feature linking it to the inventor. Think about other items used in knife making; liner loc, assisted opening, Corby Bolts, Loveless Bolts, JP Bolts ect. we all use them, some of us make them. Are we all licensed for this NO! By calling those pieces of hardware by their name we are honoring and giving credit to the inventor FREE ADVERTISING for the inventor (s). The Trademark for this hole tells us it has no use other that branding / decoration. What if someone wants to name it something else and actually put a use for that hole, are they actually violating Trademark? An interesting question that has an answer: "NO" but isn't it better for knifemakers to keep it simple and give Busse knives a bit of FREE ADVERTISING and Mr. Busse gives a bit of good will to the knife making community that he is a part of. I think we all need to more like the original men that brought knife-making to all of us, by sharing processes, ideas, styles and maybe even that little hole in the blade.
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You could not be more wrong.
 
The pick up truck is not trade marked. I can start making pick ups myself but I can not put the Ford name on them nor can I exactly copy one of their body designs and put my name on it.
 
As far as the S&W knife pictured by the OP, it is possible that Smith & Wesson paid licensing fees to use the original designs incorporated in that knife owned by other makers. The only way to really know would be to contact Smith & Wesson or the other makers mentioned. I do believe that Smith & Wesson is a company that takes property rights seriously. They have a lot riding on copyright, trademark, and patent rights themselves.

Doubletrouble said:
I sit back and read the threads that are posted here for information and education and sometimes I reply this is one of those times. I think Mr Busse is just a little thin skinned and needs to look at this issue in a different light. Take a look at Kleenex Tissue, or Ketchup or even in this case a knife blade with a hole in it. The companies that make products and then others copy it have the advantage of being the first and the inventor of a great idea. Now most of these companies allow the use of these ideas with no licenses or agreements for one reason FREE ADVERTISING! If knifemakers use the hole then when they advertise they need to say the Busse Talon Hole or something that describes this feature linking it to the inventor. Think about other items used in knife making; liner loc, assisted opening, Corby Bolts, Loveless Bolts, JP Bolts ect. we all use them, some of us make them. Are we all licensed for this NO! By calling those pieces of hardware by their name we are honoring and giving credit to the inventor FREE ADVERTISING for the inventor (s). The Trademark for this hole tells us it has no use other that branding / decoration. What if someone wants to name it something else and actually put a use for that hole, are they actually violating Trademark? An interesting question that has an answer: "NO" but isn't it better for knifemakers to keep it simple and give Busse knives a bit of FREE ADVERTISING and Mr. Busse gives a bit of good will to the knife making community that he is a part of. I think we all need to more like the original men that brought knife-making to all of us, by sharing processes, ideas, styles and maybe even that little hole in the blade.
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This guy is so far off from reality it's scary. Every item you mention is almost certainly manufactured and sold under license. If you have proof some of these items are being made and sold without license then post proof, do the right thing, and contact the owners of the property rights to inform them. Yes, companies pay fees to license, sell, and use copyrighted, trademarked, and patented designs and intellectual property every day in the US. As consumers, we don't need to pay licensing fees for these items when we buy a product, because that is done by the manufacturer when the item is made and sold.

The main thing I get from this thread is how far out of whack some individuals moral compasses are to condone or defend theft of copyright, trademark, or patent infringement. It is quite an eye opener.
 
Smith & Wesson do not make knives, nor do they have any connection with the knives sold under their brand. They sold the rights to Taylor Cutlery some time ago.
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
Smith & Wesson do not make knives, nor do they have any connection with the knives sold under their brand. They sold the rights to Taylor Cutlery some time ago.
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Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. I have no information on Taylor Cutlery, so can't speak for what type of company they are.
 
There also seems to be some confusion about patent vs trademark. Busse does not hold a design patent on the talon-hole despite its utility, he holds a trademark, #76172212:

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76172212&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=documentSearch

I do not know if this specimen counts as violating the talon-hole trademark, as the trademark itself seems rather vague in description, but guard-holes are featured on a number of knives including the Gerber LMFII and Relentless M1 ACE. TOPS and others have had to issue redesigned versions or stop producing some of their knives because they featured the talon hole, but other versions might still have guard-holes just not in the same place as a Busse. Custom knives occasionally feature the talon-hole, but usually only when the maker isn't aware of the trademark. This Taylor knife is a copy from another design, but afaik Taylor makes a LOT of such copies, including the Schrade "extreme survival" versions of CRK designs which, again afaik, where specifically purchased from CRK for the purpose. Since Taylor Brands, LLC has a base in the USA, they must abide by US-law regardless of where their knives are manufactured. Their copies are not stolen. If they transgress a patent/copyright/trademark, they can be called upon to cease/desist and pay damages. On the other hand, Ganzo/Enlan/Sanrenmu are NOT American companies and have NO regard for US laws or intellectual property rights and are VERY willing/enthusiastic about violating all of the above!
 
It is probably inappropriate to ask here, but does anyone know the relationship between Fox and Extreme Ratio knives in Italy and whether or not Jerry is still pursuing legal action against them for violating the talon-hole trademark? Italy is not China, and they continue to produce talon-hole models...
 
chiral.grolim said:
There also seems to be some confusion about patent vs trademark. Busse does not hold a design patent on the talon-hole despite its utility, he holds a trademark, #76172212:

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76172212&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=documentSearch

I do not know if this specimen counts as violating the talon-hole trademark, as the trademark itself seems rather vague in description, but guard-holes are featured on a number of knives including the Gerber LMFII and Relentless M1 ACE. TOPS and others have had to issue redesigned versions or stop producing some of their knives because they featured the talon hole, but other versions might still have guard-holes just not in the same place as a Busse. Custom knives occasionally feature the talon-hole, but usually only when the maker isn't aware of the trademark. This Taylor knife is a copy from another design, but afaik Taylor makes a LOT of such copies, including the Schrade "extreme survival" versions of CRK designs which, again afaik, where specifically purchased from CRK for the purpose. Since Taylor Brands, LLC has a base in the USA, they must abide by US-law regardless of where their knives are manufactured. Their copies are not stolen. If they transgress a patent/copyright/trademark, they can be called upon to cease/desist and pay damages. On the other hand, Ganzo/Enlan/Sanrenmu are NOT American companies and have NO regard for US laws or intellectual property rights and are VERY willing/enthusiastic about violating all of the above!
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I have an early production Fehrman Last Chance that has a talon hole. It was my understanding it is 1 of 5 produced with the talon hole, and they removed it because of Busse's trademark on that feature.
 
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Most trademarks are for Logos or in the case of non-conventional trademarks relate directly to the company. Does Jerry Busse want us to all think of him when we see a hole I don't think so! My point has always been if we knifemakers trademark or patent our ideas, processes, parts ect the custom knife industry will get boring, costly and finally it will die. It's already hard to get young people interested in knife making, they learn by seeing and at first copying a little from the older makers. Have you ever made a drop point, if you have you have violated trademark and patent laws but I will bet nobody has been sued! On this forum we all have asked how someone has done something or what process they used to get a effect. Well now it's clear no one will share or allow us to copy their great ideas in our work . I think I will go make a butter knife cause that's all I safely can make without the chance of getting a letter from a knifemakers attorney!
 
Doubletrouble said:
Most trademarks are for Logos or in the case of non-conventional trademarks relate directly to the company. Does Jerry Busse want us to all think of him when we see a hole I don't think so! My point has always been if we knifemakers trademark or patent our ideas, processes, parts ect the custom knife industry will get boring, costly and finally it will die. It's already hard to get young people interested in knife making, they learn by seeing and at first copying a little from the older makers. Have you ever made a drop point, if you have you have violated trademark and patent laws but I will bet nobody has been sued! On this forum we all have asked how someone has done something or what process they used to get a effect. Well now it's clear no one will share or allow us to copy their great ideas in our work . I think I will go make a butter knife cause that's all I safely can make without the chance of getting a letter from a knifemakers attorney!
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Please post a link of the patent/trademark/copyright/etc. relating to drop-point blade profile. Without this link, your argument is spurious.

The talon-hole is Busse TM, so YES Jerry does want you to think "Busse" whenever you see that hole.

The name INFI is also trademarked, Jerry wants you to think "Busse" whenever you see/read/hear about it. The steel formula and HT-protocol are proprietary, i.e. Busse has not fully disclosed this information to the public, not sure if they received a patent or if it has expired already (came out in 1998?)... Allowing other makers to produce knives from this steel is NOT "free advertising", esp. if the non-Busse products are inferior as that would tarnish the Busse brand. Has the limited availability of INFI damaged the knife industry? There is no evidence of this. Indeed, quite the opposite - previously developed steels (e.g. CPM-3V) are being pushed into the knife community on a regular basis whereas Busse hasn't developed/promoted any more "proprietary" steel since INFI-M although Jerry has suggested that they are working on a harder version of INFI now.

Benchmade holds the patent on the axis-lock (expires in a few years) - has its limited availability damaged the knife industry? Again, no evidence of this.

Knives are tools. Tools perform a function. The existence of design & utility patents ENHANCES the knife industry by providing makers an added benefit for developing mechanisms by which the tool is improved. Benchmade sells more knives and can put more effort into new designs/makers BECAUSE their revenue is supported by the axis-lock. Look at Cold Steel with Andrew Demko's Triad-lock - again, revenue support that has not hurt the knife industry. Indeed, other knife-makers must develop their own special styles/designs/mechanisms in order to stay relevant, which PREVENTS the knife industry from becoming "boring, costly" and keeps it thriving.

In conclusion, you have been wrong on EVERY point you have tried to make. *shrug*
 
This thread got me to wondering about the mysterious "Busse Trademark" so I went looking and the answer lies....here.
 
A lot of brands have knives with a hole in the front guard.
Just saw a knife from a very famous brand, established in 1865 have one.
So it's not only low budget knives that copy.
 
Lindquist said:
Eickhorn. Their S.E.K knife.
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Also, viper knives by technocut, nice italian knives, the following models: fate, David, Goliath, pointer, setter, and tank.

I know I'm in the minority here as a big Busse fan myself, but I think WAY too much is being made out of a friggin hole. Copying a design is one thing..., but a hole...come on. Obviously using it as a trademark on every knife, like Busse or spyderco does, is also another matter and would definitely be an infringement. But it seems every time somebody puts a hole in the guard of a knife, which is a very useful thing, folks act as if they are cheaters. Now, I personally love Busse knives and I'm a loyal fan, believing they deserve all the credit for their designs and their trademarks, but let's not take the hole thing too far... I think people are allowed to drill a hole wherever they want, just don't copy a design or a trademark while doing it. Perhaps companies should just alter the shape of the circular hole or something, which is what everyone is forced to do with hole-in-blade folders.
 
Raging Rhino said:
Also, viper knives by technocut, nice italian knives, the following models: fate, David, Goliath, pointer, setter, and tank.

I know I'm in the minority here as a big Busse fan myself, but I think WAY too much is being made out of a friggin hole. Copying a design is one thing..., but a hole...come on. Obviously using it as a trademark on every knife, like Busse or spyderco does, is also another matter and would definitely be an infringement. But it seems every time somebody puts a hole in the guard of a knife, which is a very useful thing, folks act as if they are cheaters. Now, I personally love Busse knives and I'm a loyal fan, believing they deserve all the credit for their designs and their trademarks, but let's not take the hole thing too far... I think people are allowed to drill a hole wherever they want, just don't copy a design or a trademark while doing it. Perhaps companies should just alter the shape of the circular hole or something, which is what everyone is forced to do with hole-in-blade folders.
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You should make a successful company with a recognizable trademark, then allow everyone
to copy your trademark as you suggest. See how long you keep it.
 
Lindquist said:
Eickhorn. Their S.E.K knife.
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The earliest reference I've ever been able to find the SEK knife is mid 2000's.

If you can find a pre early 1990's reference I'd love to see it, a hole in the forward part of a finger guard before the 90's is not a common find.

Edit to add content: The Marbles Pilots Survival knife has one hole in each side of the double guard, this is one of the oldest references I can find about a Guard Hole. It was for lashing the knife to a longer stick or pole. Turn that guard side ways and its rather compelling.
 
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