S30V after 7 years. Comments?

Great stainless steel for folders, but a poor choice for 'hard use' knives.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I'd rather have a knife bend than chip out badly or break like a high Rc S30V :)
 
imho s30v is a good hard use steel. cpm154 is imho more suited for edc, light use. it's easier to sharpen holds an edge way enough for this, can take a waaay thinner edge than s30v. s30v is a pain under 15°/ side and yes all the knives i don't plan using hard i try to sharpen under 15°. and yes it can be VEEERRRYYYYY long.
 
Getting a really good, consistent heat treat on superior steel for a knife blade is paramount (the choir yawns). I'm suspect of production knives' consistency, and not all makers who do their own heat treating are insistent on testing all of their output (any maker who does his own heat treat and doesn't test w/ a Rockwell Tester, IMO, isn't using one of the key tools to sufficiently guarantee consistency). If you understand and believe this, then you might find some value in what follows for (carefully selected) further reading:

R.J. Martin is a metallurgical engineer by degree and aerospace (helicopter) engineer by professional experience, who went full time in knife making a few years ago. Full disclosure... I'm an engineer by training (BSEE) so I'm very biased towards RJ's analytical but balanced approach. Having said that, RJ is a really top maker, period. I respect his opinions and attention to fabrication, ergonomics, blade steel selection and heat treating, and insistence on producing a wicked sharp knife. His opinions on blade steels are nicely [and concisely] stated in the FAQ on his web page, which describe S30V's place in the mix of modern tool steels:
http://www.martinsite.com/faq.shtml

The other guy who I feel is a super maker who really specializes in trying out all the new steels and testing them for "cutting" (as opposed for chopping) performance is Phil Wilson. Phil's views on steel are very real-world performance oriented, hard-won, and nicely stated on his web site:
http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/about.htm

Dozier makes cost effective, "elegantly simple" using-knives just full of no-frills using potential, nearly all from D2 (although A2 is available by special order). Bob seems reluctant to deviate from what he knows so that he can get a lot of high performance usin' knives out the door... and arguably D2 is still among the top cutting/slicing tool steels in use, and is affordable, and predictable to heat treat. It requires a bit more maintenance to keep minor corrosion at bay, especially if you sweat on the blade or use it to clean e.g. salt water fish, or use in kitchen where acetic acids are common. He doesn't say much about his heat treating methods on his site, but he and his crew do all heat treating in house and tailor it slightly to ensure consistent results for every batch of D2 they buy (I can't site a reference, but read this recently somewhere). S30V relevance ==> I remember a few years ago he offered S30V by special order, but then ceased for reasons that I missed as my attentions drifted elsewhere. Most makers have settled on running S30V two Rockwell C points lower than D2, and so on balance, D2 is still a very good standard from which to judge S30V. (Personally, I'd hoped that Crucible's engineering of S30V would allow broad use at Rc61, so for me this is a disappointment regarding S30V).

I also trust Chris Reeve to put out what he believes to be very good, consistently heat treated blades. From older memories, he was a bit defensive about running S30V at a lower hardness (Rc59 for folders, Rc57 for fixed blades) than, say, BG-42 (his prior main folder steel) which he ran harder (Rc60-61), but his switch from BG-42 to S30V was deliberate and he sustained his choice. Chris chose S30V when he felt he could upgrade from his former BG-42 standard, partly due to the ability to machine S30V (versus say S90V) given his production/machining/tooling setup... and part of his rationale may have had to do with easier heat treat (lower temps) than for BG-42. Overall, he stuck with S30V as an incrementally better overall choice than BG-42.

Joe Talmadge always offers thoughtful posts of value. This is from October of 2005, so omits 35V and 110V, but is a very nice compendium on blade steels minus any hype:
http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml

Rockwell Hardness is very positively correlated with slicing type edge holding (resistance to edge rolling), and carbides improve slicing sharpness longevity on abrasive materials (e.g. rope or cardboard, as opposed to say celery or tomatoes). S30V balances abrasive slicing performance w/ corrosion resistance. I do suspect it has benefited more from "word of forum/steelsnobs" [of which I am one] than may be warranted, especially with the better production makers now having broadly opted to offer at least a few S30V knives, which to my slightly cynical eye is marketing oriented as much as anything. S30V is at least a nice solid incremental improvement from the ATS-34/154CM and BG-42 tool steels (debatable vs. BG-42).

Bottom Line, pros & cons:
* S30V is more rust resistant than D2 but knowledgeable makers have found it should be run 2 Rc points lower than D2 (so may not resist edge rolling quite as well)
* S30V has solid dose of vanadium carbides for wear resistance, where ATS-34/154CM family relies on Molybdenum carbides, which are not as hard and therefore don't resist abrasion quite as well.
* S30V, being a CPM steel, should allow competent heat treaters to achieve a fine grain structure while simultaneously hitting the toughness peak for this steel, while taking advantage of the dense hard carbides from Vanadium content.
* S30V is tougher than S90V and definitely easier to sharpen, but as is so symetrically true, that which is harder to sharpen is also harder to dull, especially on abrasive media (i.e. S90V is hard to sharpen but harder to dull also)
* S30V is generally a slight upgrade all around from BG-42 (very debatable)
* S30V, for a cutting/slicing blade (as opposed to chopping), is a nicely balanced steel that has upped the ante from the old ATS-34/154CM standard "high end" steel in a modest (typically over-hyped) but sustainable way. It resists corrosion better than the "almost stainless" D2, and so there's your choice.
* S30V is a good choice for a slicing/cutting knife, but there are better choices for big blades that are intended to see impacts as a part of normal use (for blades that could see heavy impacts, you are stacking the odds in your continued favor with 3V and INFI in the stock removal category... even A2).

Keep an eye on CPM110V. See Phil's site. S110V is an updated S90V and will probably stay in that same custom-maker niche. Also keep an eye on S35VN.
 
Last edited:
My S30V was the first knife that ever whittled hair for me.

For the casual user like myself, you can't really go wrong with S30V, VG10, 154CM, or some of the other "super" stainless steels. I'll take any of them over a carbon blade any day of the week. (I have carbon bladed knives because I like traditionals, but for everyday users I prefer the new stainless steels.)

Oh, and I just love the variety of steels that available nowadays.
 
Rob_Angerer said:
Getting a really good, consistent heat treat on superior steel for a knife blade is paramount. I'm suspect of production knives' consistency, and not all makers who do their own heat treating are insistent on testing all of their output (any maker who does his own heat treat and doesn't test w/ a Rockwell Tester, IMO, isn't using the available tools sufficiently to guarantee consistency). If you understand and believe this, then you might find some value in what follows for (carefully selected) further reading (and it is S30V- related as you'll read on their sites):

In the stock removal category...

R.J. Martin is a metallurgical engineer by degree and aerospace (helicopter) engineer by professional experience, who went full time in knife making a few years ago. Full disclosure... I'm an engineer by training (BSEE) so I'm a bit biased towards RJ's approach. Having said that, RJ is a really top maker, period. I respect his opinions and attention to fabrication, ergonomics, blade steel selection and heat treating, and insistence on producing a wicked sharp knife. His opinions on blade steels are nicely and concisely stated in the FAQ on his web page, which I encourage you to read here:
http://www.martinsite.com/faq.shtml

The other guy who I feel is a super maker who really specializes in trying out all the new steels and testing them for "cutting" (as opposed for chopping) performance is Phil Wilson. Phil's views on steel are performance oriented, hard-won, and also nicely stated on his web site, here for your review:
http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/about.htm

Dozier makes cost effective, "elegantly simple" using-knives just full of no-frills using potential, nearly all from D2 (although A2 is available by special order), but seems reluctant to deviate from what he knows... and arguably D2 is still among the top cutting/slicing tool steels in use, and is affordable and predictable. It requires a bit more maintenance to keep minor corrosion at bay, especially if you sweat on the blade or use it to clean e.g. salt water fish, or use in kitchen where acetic acids are common. He doesn't say much about his heat treating methods on his site, but he and his crew do all heat treating in house and tailor it slightly to ensure consistent results for every batch of steel they buy (I can't site a reference, but read this recently somewhere). I remember a few years ago he offered S30V by special order, but then ceased for reasons that I missed as my attentions drifted elsewhere. Most makers have settled on running S30V one or two Rockwell C points lower than D2, and so on balance, D2 is still a very good standard from which to judge S30V.

I also trust Chris Reeve to put out what he believes to be very good, consistently heat treated blades. From older memories, he was a bit defensive about running S30V at a lower hardness (Rc59 for folders, Rc57 for fixed blades) than, say, BG-42 which he ran harder (Rc60-61), but his switch from BG-42 to S30V was deliberate and he sustained his choice. This was partly due to the ability to machine S30V (versus say S90V) given his production/machining/tooling setup, and may have had to do with easier heat treat (lower temps) than for BG-42. He thought S30V an incrementally better overall choice than BG-42.

Bottom Line: S30V is more rust resistant than D2, has more hard vanadium carbides for wear resistance than the ATS-34/154CM family, is tougher than S90V and definitely easier to sharpen, is generally a slight upgrade all around from BG-42, and for a cutting/slicing blade (as opposed to chopping), is a nicely balanced steel that has upped the ante from the old ATS-34/154CM standard "high end" steel in a modest (typically over-hyped) but sustainable way.

Rockwell Hardness is very positively correlated with slicing type edge holding (resistance to edge rolling), and carbides improved slicing sharpness longevity on abrasive materials (e.g. rope or cardboard, as opposed to say celery or tomatoes). S30V balances abrasive slicing performance w/ corrosion resistance. I do suspect it has benefited more from "word of mouth/forums" than may be warranted, especially with the production makers, but incrementally it's an improvement from the ATS-34/154CM and BG-42 tool steels.

Keep an eye on CPM110V. See Phil's site. S110V is an updated S90V and will probably stay in that same custom-maker niche. Also keep an eye on S35VN.

Post Script: Joe Talmadge always offers thoughtful posts of value. This is a great link to Joe's thoughts:
http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml
Click to expand...


Welcome to BF :) that's one hell of a first post too!
 
Thanks for the welcome, knifenut1013.

I'm not exactly a "1 post" newbie as it might appear. I had to change my user name from "rdangerer" due to forum software glitches. Just been absent here the past couple years.
 
S30V is a good comprimise to most enthusiast knife users who know steels and sharpening equipment but not willing to buy 8 sets of DMTs and spend 100 on a APEX. Probably at the bare maximum to maintain and sharpen on a sharpmaker effectively, holds an amazing scary sharp edge from the CPM technology. Great wear resistance to the common blade, and good toughness when treated properly. And I have never found to rust on me yet.

Great high end professional steel for most users. Wish it was a little less expensive as most S30V steels hover around the 100 mark on knives.
 
Rob_Angerer said:
Thanks for the welcome, knifenut1013.

I'm not exactly a "1 post" newbie as it might appear. I had to change my user name from "rdangerer" due to forum software glitches. Just been absent here the past couple years.
Click to expand...

Well in that case welcome back :D
 
brandonc said:
Great stainless steel for folders, but a poor choice for 'hard use' knives.
Click to expand...

cziv said:
Agreed, I'd rather have a knife bend than chip out badly or break like a high Rc S30V
Click to expand...

I haven't read many complaints lately of S30V chipping out on knives like Strider, Chris Reeve or custom makers like Crusader Forge. I suppose it depends on what's meant by "hard use", but even then I haven't seen any serious comparative reviews utilizing similar methodologies, blades, etc showing S30V to chip out significantly more than any other common steel.

My understanding is that it's not ideal for large choppers, but then again neither are a lot of common folder steels. They're designed for different applications. If the HRC is really high, doesn't that just mean that the steel has been just hardened too much? Every steel has its ceiling and just because one steel's ceiling is lower than the next, I don't think that necessarily means that the steel is incapable of being used "hard" (again, depending on the definition).

Something like INFI has been shown to be able to take a tremendous amount of high impact stress without chipping (as much) compared to other steels, but it's not like S30V is the only not-as-great-performer compared to INFI in certain abusive applications.

Any thoughts?
 
I haven't seen any serious comparative reviews utilizing similar methodologies, blades, etc showing S30V to chip out significantly more than any other common steel.
Click to expand...

CRK Green Beret http://knifetests.com/ChrisReeveGreenBeretDTest.html

Strider BT did much better than CRK knife - equal rating to the RAT RC-4 (using Rowen 1095) http://knifetests.com/page7.html

Now this shows a lot of legitimate hard use and some real abuse too. But it may leave some clues about heat treatment - or maybe not? You can juge for yourself.
 
cziv said:
CRK Green Beret http://knifetests.com/ChrisReeveGreenBeretDTest.html

Strider BT did much better than CRK knife - equal rating to the RAT RC-4 (using Rowen 1095) http://knifetests.com/page7.html

Now this shows a lot of legitimate hard use and some real abuse too. But it may leave some clues about heat treatment - or maybe not? You can juge for yourself.
Click to expand...

I believe that he said "serious comparative reviews". I can mess up any blade by hitting it with a 3lb steel mallet. Now, if the test was with a 2" or 3" wood baton, I might see a glimmer of validity.
 
cziv said:
CRK Green Beret http://knifetests.com/ChrisReeveGreenBeretDTest.html

Strider BT did much better than CRK knife - equal rating to the RAT RC-4 (using Rowen 1095) http://knifetests.com/page7.html

Now this shows a lot of legitimate hard use and some real abuse too. But it may leave some clues about heat treatment - or maybe not? You can juge for yourself.
Click to expand...

The difference in performance between the CRK and the Strider seems to indicate the issue isn't inherent in S30V per se. That's aside from the serious lack of controls for variables in the "tests."

A legitimate comparative test for steel performance would include (among other things) similar blade styles like the Spyderco mules, probably with multiple blades of the same steel to get a nice sample size, etc, along with some repeatable, measurable cutting/stabbing/bending/whatever tests on materials with a good consistency and so on.
 
Last edited:
A.P.F. said:
I believe that he said "serious comparative reviews". I can mess up any blade by hitting it with a 3lb steel mallet.
Click to expand...

I don't want to start the noss4 wars again but this statement is incorrect. Plenty of other blades received the same treatment, with vastly different results.
 
Kaizen1 said:
The difference in performance...

on.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we still await your videoed tests. Its only been a few years.



As to S30V, I agree with earlier posts that heat treat seems to have prevented the steel from being everything it could be.

But the same could be said for most steels.

I usually consider S30V in the same category as D2, simply being a more stainless.
 
I've had a bit of experience with S30V carrying a Mili for 7 months now. I feel that it's a great steel when it comes to long-term edge retention. Take it out for a day and feed it cardboard and gritty ropes, and it'll come out at the end ragged, but still cutting. But it takes a polished edge only stubbornly, and loses the hairsplitting sharpness pretty fast-faster than VG10. I prefer VG10 for this, but the S30V Mili will always have a place.

Now CPM M4-that's a different story!
 
A.P.F. said:
I believe that he said "serious comparative reviews". I can mess up any blade by hitting it with a 3lb steel mallet. Now, if the test was with a 2" or 3" wood baton, I might see a glimmer of validity.
Click to expand...

+1. If you can't measure it it's not a "test."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top