S30V after 7 years. Comments?

[bearcut]

Great stainless steel for folders, but a poor choice for 'hard use' knives.

Oh, I don't know about that.

I beat on a 6.5 fixed blade Strider while testing it against two other blades made from INFI and 3V.

The S30V held up just fine. It even survived a vicious tip stab into some very hard concrete.

I kept the 3V knife only because I like the overall design better than the other two.

 

[cziv]

+1. If you can't measure it it's not a "test."

I beat on a 6.5 fixed blade Strider while testing it against two other blades made from INFI and 3V.

The S30V held up just fine. It even survived a vicious tip stab into some very hard concrete.

I kept the 3V knife only because I like the overall design better than the other two.

I tried to be careful in wording my post. It appears from the Knife Tests - stupid or not is up to you, that Strider seems to handle their S30V much better.

Each knife is tested the same (pretty much) and I don't think that hand chopping and point stabbing into pine boards, the doing web cutting to illustrate edge retention, is an unfair test of a knife.

Using a 3# mallet to baton through wood and doing stabs into concrete give an idea (to me) how the blade will behave if it contact a rock while digging into earth or simply accidental contact - well that's subjective to the viewer - but it does leave clues that Strider's S30V behaves differently.

Now it's important to note that CRK purchased the Green Beret by replacing it with a new one "to study it" so it's told and I have no reason to believe that they didn't. There's a real possibility that there was a bad heat treat on that knife or batch of knives from CRK and this has been remedied.

I have no axe to grind with CRKnives - they're very nice. I just find some of the tests enjoyable to watch and sometimes a little boring at times as NOSS really does a thorough destruction test.

This (above) maybe a little off-topic. But in real world use I think Benchmade S30V is too hard and CRK's lower heat treatment is better. I've chipped one of my 940's badly and not being abusive. I bought a new blade for it. The Sebenza seems much better and the Strider SNG / SMF even better.

I still agree with the poster who said great for folders but not so much for hard use knives. YMMV

 

[KennyB]

I appreciate testing knives under circumstances you wouldn't find them in, but I think there's a lack of testing circumstances that are actually really relevant to knives. I mean, how many people are worried about how their knives holds up to stabbing a piece of sheet metal versus how it stands up to their family using it in place of a flat-head screw driver? I know I certainly have had more experience with the latter and would rather know how each steel holds up there rather than in this imaginary circumstance where I'm going to be going commando on the refridgerator.

No offense to anyone, but I just think most of the tests are completely irrelevant. Here are some extremely hard tests on knives I'd like to see.

The screwdriver test -- as I said, a lot of the time people will use knives without asking, the key here is to use them in a very common circumstance. Really this can just be an umbrella category, you could also have the "shovel"
The jar of change test -- ever have a pocket full of change mess up and open back folder? I have. And this is completely relevant since, a pocket knife is supposed to go in your pocket, but not supposed to come into contact with change.
The pop can test -- Not a lot of people cut pop cans up, but I've seen it done a few times for whatever reason
The drop test -- Instead of stabbing concrete, drop a knife point down from 3 ft or so to simulate dropping it
The boot test -- Follow up by stepping on the thing, this would be totally devestating for most, completley relevant, and probably way more brutal than a 3 lb mallet

I mean, the list is really endless. The key is that I think they should be things that really happen to knives a lot in real life rather than acting movies. I mean, stabbing sheet metal? Is this the Samurai armor test or something?

As far as S30V goes... It's really the only steel I've used other than some 440A, HC and AUS8. I can't say that the edge strength or retention is noticeably higher, but it really depends on what you're doing with it and what kind of edge angle it's in. I have some 440 knives that I can't sharpen to angles that are as account as my S30V ( yeah I only have one ) is at without the edges getting so weak they roll cutting plastic. So that's a plus, but it's more of an extreme circumstance than anything.

I will say that it seems to take a nicer edge on lower grit stones than 440 steels. I think it's about on par with AUS8 in that regard, and I'm not a big steel fanatic but I think it has something to do with the Vandium, because my Case CV trapper has this effect too, but on the other hand so does 440HC so maybe it's got something to do with the carbon. I don't really know, I'm not a big steel guy.

As far as testing steels, edge retention and sharpness goes, I saw a program on The History Channel that showed how Cutco Cutlery does it. They have a machine that cuts these little strips of sandpaper and a computer that counts how many pieces it cuts per pass, over and over and over again.

I'd like someone to make a commercial version of that. I doubt it'd be very hard to produce, the bulk of the sophistication seemed to be in the computer and statistical side of it, but I mean, that's producing quality control. I bet some simple jig with a ruler that you could stack sand paper into and then measure how deep the cuts went would suffice for a home user, and give a more accurate representation of edge retention and cutting ability than practically anything, and more economically. I mean, what is as cheap as sand paper yet as uniform in its constitution?

 

[cziv]

I'd like someone to make a commercial version of that. I doubt it'd be very hard to produce, the bulk of the sophistication seemed to be in the computer and statistical side of it, but I mean, that's producing quality control. I bet some simple jig with a ruler that you could stack sand paper into and then measure how deep the cuts went would suffice for a home user, and give a more accurate representation of edge retention and cutting ability than practically anything, and more economically. I mean, what is as cheap as sand paper yet as uniform in its constitution?

Your claim to fame & fortune KennyB! "Build it and they will come.."

 

[Kaizen1]

Yeah, we still await your videoed tests. Its only been a few years.

WTH is this comment about? I make a legitimate point that there was a difference in performance (a rather obvious one at that) on Noss' videos between the Strider and the CRK indicating that the issue doesn't appear inherent in S30V per se, and your response is some smart ass ad hominem (?).

Implicit in that thoughtless response is that if you don't personally do something, you're not qualified to comment on it. That doesn't hold up under scrutiny. It's just some one liner perpetuated when one can't bring up a valid point.

 

[cziv]

if you don't personally do something, you're not qualified to comment on it

Agreed, we're not a bunch of scientists or steel forgers (is that a word?). This is like chatting about big games, teams, players or whatever, based on our experiences, those discussed by other members and watching videos - looking at pics of various blade steels etc..

I would defintely agree with this statement:

The difference in performance between the CRK and the Strider seems to indicate the issue isn't inherent in S30V per se. That's aside from the serious lack of controls for variables in the "tests."

It's the only explanation that makes sense to me anyway.

 

[unit]

Agreed, we're not a bunch of scientists or steel forgers (is that a word?). This is like chatting about big games, teams, players or whatever, based on our experiences, those discussed by other members and watching videos - looking at pics of various blade steels etc..

I would defintely agree with this statement:

The difference in performance between the CRK and the Strider seems to indicate the issue isn't inherent in S30V per se. That's aside from the serious lack of controls for variables in the "tests."

It's the only explanation that makes sense to me anyway.

I would like to pose a civilized request if I may...Can someone either give a link or a brief synopsis of the tests being referenced?

I guess I am new here and I am not sure what the nature of these tests is. I can imagine that both heat treat and geometry are considerably different, but I am not sure if that is the point being made or not.

Respectfully thanking anyone who will clarify.

Thanks.

 

[Kaizen1]

I would like to pose a civilized request if I may...Can someone either give a link or a brief synopsis of the tests being referenced?

I guess I am new here and I am not sure what the nature of these tests is. I can imagine that both heat treat and geometry are considerably different, but I am not sure if that is the point being made or not.

Respectfully thanking anyone who will clarify.

Thanks.

We're referring to a site owned by a member here, Noss4:
http://www.knifetests.com/

The tests are highly controversial here on BF. I think at the very least, they're interesting.

 

[unit]

We're referring to a site owned by a member here, Noss4:
http://www.knifetests.com/

The tests are highly controversial here on BF. I think at the very least, they're interesting.

Oh lord! I had no idea that is what was being discussed...now I understand. I agree with you (both of the bold parts).

Thanks again.

 

[Stainz]

My first S30V was a Buck/Cabela's AG 110 - super bargain then. Next were the Kalinga Pro's and Spyderco Natives. All have been excellent edge holders - in cutting/slicing duties. Touch-ups only on the user-Native and AG 110 - the K-P's have admittedly seen little use. Next was a Gerber stag handled Freeman - the softest S30V blade I have. The K-P and Freeman fb's have not been battoned - I am reticent to discuss such use of a folder, too. I guess starting with slippies - and whittling/carving - set me in my ways. Finally, I tried more Benchmades - and S30V is my favorite, again, there as well.

I have one VG-10, some SG2, lots of 154CM & CPM154, and 440C. I have several Buck C.S. 110's in BG-42 - wish they were S30V! To be honest - I am more impressed with tool steels - A2, D2, M2/M4, etc, for folders and small fb's, and 1095/ 01/ & 8670(? John Greco, etc, use it.) for heavy fb's. One steel I hate to mention in polite company - whose only fault is that it does need a bit more maintenance time with my Sharpmaker - is Buck's Paul Bos (... for a few more days!) heat treated 420HC. It really is as good as some 'premium' steels - with easier maintenance. Actually, if you go by use and time spent re-sharpening, the S30V & 420HC probably are more similar in their time demands than you'd expect. Still, I'll go with S30V for 'carry' folders - a great steel. Best bargain: Buck #347 Vantage Pro in S30V.

Stainz

 

[Rob_Angerer]

Your claim to fame & fortune KennyB! "Build it and they will come.."

Alas, the opportunity for fame and fortune has passed in this arena... and a few have come already...

See here (complete w/ embedded Youtube video snippet):
http://www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/st.htm

Spyderco, Buck, and others have used the Catra for years in assessing blade materials (steels, "Stellites", probably ceramics) in a precise, mechanical, and repeatable way.

Hey... I wonder if a plastic ketchup bottle with a flat lid (allowing it to sit upside down in the fridge) would catch on... ok... gotta go ... could be my first million...

 

[cziv]

Hey, they have some really cool technology on that site! Too bad some of the pages like the knife edge comparison are 404's. Thanks for sharing that Rob_Angerer :thumbup:

 

[Broos]

Welcome back, Rob. CATRA is THE testing method to use for good edge retention results.

I have had great experience with S30V, and think it's a great all around steel for a knife intended for cutting.

I always get a chuckle out of the sophomoric logic that making videos or doing any test somehow is a requirement for commenting on testing, Kaizen1!

I don't think it is a coincidence that it is almost always used in defense of bad conclusions based on unrepeatable tests!

 

[SteelSnob]

I personally don't like S30V that much no matter who HTs it. If I had the choice every single S30V blade I own would actually be CPM154 @61-62HRC instead.

 

[cziv]

I personally don't like S30V that much no matter who HTs it. If I had the choice every single S30V blade I own would actually be CPM154 @61-62HRC instead.

I love CPM154, as it's much easier for "me" to sharpen to scary sharp. I don't know what the difference in edge retention would be, but since I can't get S30V anywhere close to factory sharp - it doesn't really matter.

 

[OldDude1]

I'm with SteelSnob on this one. S30v is not my favorite. As an END USER, it's design parameter of increased machinability is not as high on my priority list as fine edge retention and ease of sharpening. I can get S30v blades very sharp. Unfortunately, for my usage, they quickly dull down to a mediocre level of sharpness and then hold it at that point all day. This is a valuable attribute if maintenance must be deferred while still maintaining a useful edge. I don't mind maintenance touch-ups. It is just not as rewarding with S30v at the commonly available hardness levels. OldDude1

 

[A.P.F.]

I love CPM154, as it's much easier for "me" to sharpen to scary sharp. I don't know what the difference in edge retention would be, but since I can't get S30V anywhere close to factory sharp - it doesn't really matter.

Now that is a statement that actually conveys some information without practicing flawed science. Many (most?) statements about knives and steel are objective in nature and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact I am far more interested in 'real world experience' observations rather than pseudo-scientific comparative testing. All too often, people attempt to invalidate an individual's emperical experience either with contrary emperical experience, or flawed science, IMO.

As for S30V, my experience has shown it to be an excellent steel that does have a tendency to chip out on a factory fresh edge, however a couple of sharpenings usually corrects the issue.

 

[Rob_Angerer]

I love CPM154, as it's much easier for "me" to sharpen to scary sharp. I don't know what the difference in edge retention would be, but since I can't get S30V anywhere close to factory sharp - it doesn't really matter.

On getting steels scary sharp... the easiest knives to get scary sharp in my own [necessarily limited] experience were 52100 forged blades from Rick Dunkerly. I still own one of them. I was using (and still do) hand-held jigs to get the initial edge, and a leather strop to get final burr off and get the final shaving edge. Is 52100, therefore, magic? Nope. [Heresy!! ] I suspect that Rick got a decent fine grain in his heat treat (can't prove it without destructive testing and/or a very powerful microscope) and that the rather simple steel made it easy to sharpen with diamond stones.

As my sharpening skills improved, I could get fairly hair popping results consistently on nearly any steel, including S90V (which takes a lot of effort by hand, as S90V is very abrasion resistant at Rc60 and fulla carbides).

I bought a jig to sharpen chisels on water stones. Result: hair JUMPING sharp. Hairs literally were sheared off my arm so cleanly that they jumped as they were shorn.

I can also get a shaving sharp edge on a machete, albeit with a rotary grinder with a couple special wheels on them, final of which was like a hard/dense paper wheel w/ diamond abrasives loaded. Plus, on the wheel, you can get a semi-convex final edge, kinda like CRK gets on their knives (hollow ground, but convex final edge).

My point: it's not the steel, it's the sharpening method. Some steels are harder to sharpen than others, and in general, it's fairly correlated with hardness and highly correlated with hard carbide content (Stellite/Talonite [RIP], the CoCr family, are an interesting exception). Simpler steels are easier to sharpen, and the corollary is that they are easier to dull. Complex carbide-laden steels are hard to sharpen and hard to dull. Symmetry... it's a real-world thing... and a useful framework from which to approach a topic for discussion or debate.

 

[SteelSnob]

I love CPM154, as it's much easier for "me" to sharpen to scary sharp. I don't know what the difference in edge retention would be, but since I can't get S30V anywhere close to factory sharp - it doesn't really matter.

I agree 100%! I don't want to spend a boatload of time sharpening to get a little bit more edge retention that is unnoticable to me. And frankly CPM154 at 61-62 HRC is the best all arounder for folders IMO.

 

[Rob_Angerer]

I agree 100%! I don't want to spend a boatload of time sharpening to get a little bit more edge retention that is unnoticable to me. And frankly CPM154 at 61-62 HRC is the best all arounder for folders IMO.

I think this is a defensible position. If you know how to sharpen a knife, and own more than one knife, you can always have one in the bullpen for sharpening in the evening, and the other in your pocket.

Hardness is highly correlated with edge holding for a daily carry knife that sees mostly slicing type use (after all, it's a folding pocket knife, not a cleaver or axe or machete). Even a simple steel, heat treated to Rc60-61, is going to serve most daily uses.

If you splurge on diamond laden sharpening "stones", then most any steel can be dealt with while sharpening.

I am a steel snob, self admitted. But less so than I am insistent on buying most of my knives from makers who bother to heat treat to the optimum, and consistently. Whether the ATS-34/154CM group, D2, or S30V, S90V, or any of their European knockoffs or new/better tweaks on the old stuff.