S30V ! Hype or Hyper Steel?

vwb563

vwb563

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Well,, I just finished my second test of comparing edge holding abilities between a s30v Spyderco Manix and a Victorinox Tinker stainless steel which I have been told is very similar to 440-B. The test I conducted was a simple one in which I started with both knives equaly sharp and cut up an equal amount of cardboard between the two knives. Now I was expecting, or hoping I guess you could say, that the Manix would outperform the Tinker by a sizeable margin, but, once again, just as in my first test, I was disappointed. I started the test with the Manix and cut up a cardboard box into 2x2" squares. By the the time I cut up the last few pieces the knife had lost its hair shaving edge and was starting to drag pretty bad, not wanting to make the last few cuts and was "pushing" the paper instead of slicing through it. Then I did the same with the Tinker. I cut the same amount of squares from the exact same type of cardboard. The Tinker was equally sharp at the end of the test as the Manix and was actually cutting a little better than the Manix by still "slicing" instead of "pushing" the cardboard. Now some may say my test are crude and don't prove anything but in my test and in my opinion s30v is mostly "hype" and not the "hyper" steel it is being made out to be.,,,VWB.
 
Edge geometry has a lot to do with it !! 4 % V in S30V makes it much more wear resistant than other steels .In my experience in cutting cardbard S30V is better than 154CM which is better tha 440 . If that weren't true they wouldn't waste time and money to put V in S30V !
 
And blade thickness if the entire blade is passing through material
 
Aside from edge geometry, blade shape is also a factor. The Manix blade is considerably thicker than the Tinker blade. That gives the Tinker an inherent advantage in cutting cardboard.

If you feel up to further testing, try cutting manila rope after sharpening both edges at the same angle and to an equivalent level of sharpness. Manila rope is not sensitive to blade shape, only to edge angle and the edge retention properties of the steel.

A third factor that can affect edge retention performance is edge from factory vs edge after a few sharpenings. I have noticed that when I do edge retention comparisons using a new blade that I have only sharpened once or twice, the performance is not as good as that same blade after a dozen or so sharpenings. It is said that sometimes the outer edge gets over-heated during the manufacturing process leading to lower properties. All I know for sure is that I see improvement between factory fressh and after a dozen or so sharpenings.
 
Both knives have been sharpened many times and do have similar edge angles. Its true the Manix has a considerably thicker blade. But it wasn't the thickness making it push instead of slicing the cardboard. The knife simply went dull! If two average buyers who know little about knives buy a new Manix for a $100.00 and a new Tinker for $15.00 and both go to work at the "cardboard" factory cutting cardboard, the one who bought the Manix is gonna feel like he got ripped when he sees his pal's 15 buck swiss army knife performing as well if not better than his expensive knife. I guess my point is if these "hyper" steels are soo great then why don't the manufacturers grind and edge them to optimal angles so as to take advantage of the steels superiority? To an average person like me, s30v is all hype.,,,VWB.
 
vwb563 said:
Both knives have been sharpened many times and do have similar edge angles. Its true the Manix has a considerably thicker blade. But it wasn't the thickness making it push instead of slicing the cardboard. The knife simply went dull! If two average buyers who know little about knives buy a new Manix for a $100.00 and a new Tinker for $15.00 and both go to work at the "cardboard" factory cutting cardboard, the one who bought the Manix is gonna feel like he got ripped when he sees his pal's 15 buck swiss army knife performing as well if not better than his expensive knife. I guess my point is if these "hyper" steels are soo great then why don't the manufacturers grind and edge them to optimal angles so as to take advantage of the steels superiority? To an average person like me, s30v is all hype.,,,VWB.
Click to expand...

And that's precisely why these kinds of tests can be confusing. I don't know what to tell you if your S30v knife is going dull before your Victorinox. I love my Rambler, but it gets dull opening a few envelopes.

Victorinox knives are sharp in the same way a disposable razor blade is sharp. They'll still cut cardboard just fine when dull simply because they're so thin. That's part of the reason disposable razor blades are the thinner than

If you've decided you love a thin blade profile because it slices much better, I'm right there with you. My Caly 3 gets a ton of pocket carry because of the nice thin blade.

I just don't think the edge retention on Victorinox's Rostfrei steel is anywhere close to VG 10, or S30v. But, different blade thicknesses and shapes are better suited to different tasks.

Perhaps you should perform the same test again, pitting a $1.50 mat knife with disposable blades against a Victorinox knife!
 
I have never done a controlled (or semi-controlled) "testing" of any of my knives. I can say that I use them enough to get a general idea how they'll react to use in varying materials.

Everything I've read about S30V rings pretty true compared to my use of the steel. I have three blades in S30V. Each has been sharpened numerous times. It's the best edge-holding steel I have (I have 154CM (<-- I love this steel), 440C, 12C27, 1095, A2, O1, D2, 420HC, Sandvik SS (12C27?), other steels that are not marked, and probably one or maybe several more I can;t think of right now.

I wouldn;t call it super-hyper or anything (because I'm not a metallurgist or steel engineer), just outstanding edge-holding steel for knives. As long as the written article uses words in their proper context, I would say S30V is everything it's hyped up to be.
 
Also, like Mete and Knarfeng said, edge geometry could affect the test results. I'm not familiar with either knife you mentioned, but consider this:

Why is it that Scandi ground knives cut so well into wood for notching, shaving, fuzz-stick making, etc? And yet, when push cutting leather, they are terrible compared to a convex-ground edge of the same sharpness? A standard V-grind will cut cardboard better than a convex-grind, but the primary grind may be of a geometry that forces the edge to cut one way or another, making it last longer or wear out quicker than another primary grind.

I really think that S30V is pretty good Joe, and certainly better at edge-holding than 440B or its comparative twin.
 
S30V is significantly harder to sharpen than VG-10, much less Rastafrei, and that's wear resistance right there.

I dunno... I have a Manix for a heavy duty (folder) user, and find it takes a keen edge and keeps it tremendously well. For cardboard it easily outlasts the much thinner convexed-edge polished blade on my LM Wave. YMMV
 
To have a fair comparison you'll need to have two knives of the same blade design, but of different steels.
I have various Buck 110 models with different blade-steels (420HC, ATS-34, BG-42, CPM154, and S30V) they all have the same Buck 110 blade design, grind, and geometry.
And Mr. Paul Bos oversees Buck's heat treatment too.

Out of the five different steels, the S30V is my favorite.

It seems that I can get it sharper than the 420HC and the ATS-34....the BG-42 and CPM154 I can get equally sharp, but the S30V seems to hold the edge longer.
The ATS-34 and the BG-42 seem to be the most difficult to sharpen for me.

Mind you, there is not a huge gap in performance between the five steels, and thanks to the excellent grind and blade geometry of the Buck 110, they all cut extremely well....even the lowly 420HC.
 
If S30V were Hype, don't you think makers would be dropping it? But, then again, time will tell. I've had no trouble with S30V.
 
Was the manix a brand new knife? because some people find you need to sharpen s30v 4-6X before the proper s30v hardness kicks in, it has something to do with the heat treat.
 
I had a similar "break-in" period with an s30v knife of mine(Lonewolf T-2). I was at first a little disappointed with how often I had to sharpen it, but that didn't last long. After several sharpenings and a reprofile of the primary bevel, that thing eats cardboard for breakfast.

The s30v blade in my Leatherman, however, is still going strong on it's initial sharpening.

The best edge holing steel I've used is ZDP-189, hands down.
 
starboard said:
S30V is significantly harder to sharpen than VG-10, much less Rastafrei, and that's wear resistance right there.
Click to expand...

Don't sharpen knives when you are hanging with the 'Rastafari', wait 'til you come down or you might lose a finger!! :p
 
S30V is not hype, IMO. It does what it is supposed to do. It holds a good edge forever. It will not feel sharp, but will keep on cutting. Consider it a serrated blade without the serrations, as you will not be able to see them, as they are so small.

I have a double dog dare that I'm too cowardly to do. Somebody, try to cut a cheap or worn Victorinox mystery steel blade in half with S30V and post the pictures. Anybody up to the challenge? I think S30V could do it.

I've seen people use S30V sebenzas and cut through copper wire on this forum. I would image Vortorinox steel would give to s30V as well. Heck, I have swiss army steel that is so soft that it bends and has stayed bent.
 
It's not hype, unless people are claiming things like 50% improvement in performance, etc. However, a steel is not superior, simply because it's popular or has been recently taken up by some knife makers. They'll gravitate toward the new, just as in any other industry.

You can measure cutting ability a number of ways. "Shaving sharp" is common, as is the paper test. Others think rope is the ideal challenge. But, a "push" test through filament line or rubber is also used. Of course, you would want to test blades with very similar thickness and geometry.

I would not get wound up or draw any conclusions based on the tests you performed, so far. OTOH, I wouldn't expect big improvements in cutting performance (again, cutting what or pushing?) just by switching to S30V.
 
It is one of the best steel on the market in terms of Edge retention. Old CPM S60V is better and I did not test CPM S90V and ZDP189 yet, but in ER it outperforms many.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509097

I think it is not as good as Carbon for big blades - see Noss4 tests, he break CPM S30V from different manufacturers. But for pocket knife it is one of the best and not too expensive.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Yes my piranha bodyguard is sometimes not as sharp as it used to be yet still cuts great...I like S30V a lot.
 
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