S30V...Is it the be all and end all?

R

Ravenfeeder

Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
28
Greeting one and all,

I am not a knife maker. I am a knife user. However, I figured if I have a question about knife steel...ask a knife maker. So, I have heard all this great stuff about S30V......super stain resistant, takes and holds a great edge, super tough and hardens up at 59-61 ROC. According to what I have read to date, this is "it." Why make a blade out of anything else, especially if your talking about tactical combat knives? It sounds like the steel of the Gods. Is there any down side to this steel compared to 154-CM, ATS-34, BG-42, AUS-8, 440C, 420HC, D2, etc.? Hell, I thought D2 was a great steel. I would be very interested to get your views.
 
One of the first questions a lot of folks ask when they come in here is "What is the best steel for knives?" (Learn to use the search and you'll see what I mean.) The answer is not simple, though.

If you think that CPM S30V might be the "best" knife steel ever, consider this:

- Chris Reeve, who helped develop S30V, still uses A2 tool steel for many of his extreme hard-use knives. A2 has been around for about a century. The man may have more experience with S30V than anyone else and he still uses a steel older than any of us.

- ABS Journeyman candidates frequently use spring steels like 5160 to make their test knives. These knives are put through rigors that I suspect no stainless steel knife will ever pass.

- Ed Fowler creates knives of even more unbelievable performance out of ball bearings. (!!!)

- Don Hanson, Ariel Salaverria and others on this forum create blades of surpassing beauty by mixing different metals together when forging. Though some of the alloys they use are stainless, these designs would not be possible with just one formula. The variety is critical.

There's more to say about this, but my point is that you're asking a question which is like "What's the best book ever written?" or "What's the best albumn ever recorded?" The answer is subjective. It depends on the demands of the maker and those of the end user. S30V makes a well-rounded blade, but it is outperformed in corrosion resistance by some steels, and in strength & toughness by others including its brother, CPM 3V.

Personal opinion: Hi-tech steels ultimately benefit large knifemaking operations the most, and it comes down to two things. The first is that these steels work very consistently, so they're effective parts of mass-production efforts. Second, they generate buzz which helps with marketing. Many small makers can produce knives that perform flawlessly in their intended purpose and they use skill and knowledge instead of The Latest Greatest Thing to do it.

/rant

-Allin
 
Well said Allin,

S30V is a very good stainless, but by no means the be all end all knife steel. Matter of fact I just broke the blade of one of my earlier folders(through blatent abuse) when I know for a fact the same blade in 52100 would have survived.

When you say tacticle knife, to me that mean hard use and if your not in salt water my personal preferance is a carbon steel. Simply because with a diferential heat treat the carbon steel knife will not be as likely to break under extream conditions, and carbon steels by and large are tougher than stainless.

A lot depends on what you want that knife to do. If corosion resistance is primary, 440C or S30V would be my first choices. If corosion resistance and a high degree of finish, then it'd be 440C. If a working stainless that is easy to sharpen, my preferance is ATS-34. I am looking forward to trying the CPM154CM, it should have the best of everything, at least untill something new comes along. If your not woried about a few spots and stains, and are willing to put just a little effort in care, most carbon steel knives will far outperform stainless steels.

My own 52100 comes within 10% of the cutting ability of S30V heat treated by Paul Bos, but still cuts even when dull, where the S30V won't. And the 52100 is extreamly easy to sharpen, where I need a diamond stone or quite a while with a stone to sharpen S30V. But 52100 will spot and stain and without care rust. But so will a stainless knife under the rite conditons.

Each steel with a magicle "perfect" heat treat has limitations and draw backs and comprimises. I wouldn't make a dive knife out of 52100, nor would I make a hard use bowie out of 440C. It all boils down to what the intended purpase is.
 
The girl you take on a weekend date to the shore,and the girl you take to dinner at Grandma's are usually two very different girls. The metal you make a sushi knife out of and the metal for a camp knife will be different for the same reason.
S30V is great for things in its realm.I am still studying the new CPM154 to see how close it comes (especially when you factor in the finishing and grinding ease) to being a good replacement for S30V. I have used ATS34 for most all my stainless cutlery,except those that required S30V's special traits.
Stacy
 
It's all in the shape and the heat treat.

I was lucky enough to find an individual to re-heat treat my "superior" S30V blade from 58 to over 60 - and completely changed its edge holding and ability to take an edge. I followed up with a refining of the edge grind to make use of these new characteristics.

I think S30V provides an opportunity to create excellence - the rest is (as always) up to the craftsmen involved.

IMO

MAT
 
bladsmth said:
The girl you take on a weekend date to the shore,and the girl you take to dinner at Grandma's are usually two very different girls.
Click to expand...

Ain't diversity great, Stacey? ;)
 
I'm pretty sure ANY steel I use at the skill level I've manage to attain so far will suck monkey balls... certainly no fault of the steel!
 
Even the best steel is not going to perform if it's not heat treated properly. We have already seen this in some production knives where S30V has disappointed the owner because of poor HT.
 
bladsmth said:
The girl you take on a weekend date to the shore,and the girl you take to dinner at Grandma's are usually two very different girls. The metal you make a sushi knife out of and the metal for a camp knife will be different for the same reason.
S30V is great for things in its realm.I am still studying the new CPM154 to see how close it comes (especially when you factor in the finishing and grinding ease) to being a good replacement for S30V. I have used ATS34 for most all my stainless cutlery,except those that required S30V's special traits.
Stacy
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I like three girls one to take to the Bars also :D

but too you have to mention ATS 34 is the Jap version of 154CM :D
and CPM154 is ground up 154CM :D

so 154CM rules haha :thumbup: :D :D
or O1 high carbon..;)
or like the guys said to each his own in what it's going to be used for.. watch for the hype , hype sells but it's the hype that is selling and it don't make the steel any better..and like said if not Heat treated right you may as well sharpen up a piece of Cooper and use it..:)
 
You guys answered my question in spades. Thank you Allin, Will, et al. Also, for the record, I don't think S30V is the "be all and end all," I had heard all this "amazing" stuff about it and thought I'd better ask people who can really put some perspective on the subject and I thank you all for doing so.
 
mete said:
Even the best steel is not going to perform if it's not heat treated properly. We have already seen this in some production knives where S30V has disappointed the owner because of poor HT.
Click to expand...

You got it right Mete!

I have been working on S30V lately. They say that the best hardness is 58-60HRC. I got 58-60 hardness results using two different Austenitizing Temperature using same tempering temperature. One set of parameter is a recommedation from Crucible itself. Still the result is not even satisfactory.
Until I have tried to concentrate on tempering temperature, using different Aust. temperatue. The result was promising, and I notice that secondary hardness was triggered and toughness was improved.

I would even like to compare my knife with other s30v users to see who got the best hardness/toughness combo. :)
 
I think most here use a 400-500 F temper .You don't get secondary hardening until you get up to about 1000 F. Are you plate quenching ? It's very convenient for the air hardening steels.
 
mete,

400-500F temper is a very conservative tempering temperature. I did not get good result on this. I have almost tried all the HT combinations from Low Aust Temp vs. Low/med/high tempering temperature up to High Aust Temp vs. Low/med/high tempering temperature and it was only then that I can say which one were the best parameters based on result.
Inclusion of cryo treatment will be next.
 
i might be wrong but i think cryo is called for or you dont get near the right combo

i just got done a batch of ats34 and cpm154 at 2000 for 25 min plate quench and then to the cryo no snap temper and temper at 500 2 hours x2 im goingto get some hardness readings to see where im at and see what has to be changed
butch
 
cryo,,, yes on any knife SS ,
from the reviews I've heard from the locals

you can try a piece of 154CM and label it S30V
and see if the results improve for you on that one ;) :D
 
Dan Gray said:
you can try a piece of 154CM and label it S30V
and see if the results improve for you on that one ;) :D
Click to expand...
dare you say that i should try runnning some cpm154 at some higher temps and see what happenes:confused:
butch
 
heck no.. heat treat the 154CM at the recommended temps. cryo and
check it out comparing it to S30V and see how it works out :)

I'm pulling legs here,, but I do personally like the 154CM over all other ss so far.. cost and ease of use are two pluses..I'm not baring use of it..
Mike (Fitso) sent me some to play with..
I'm glad I didn't buy some on purpose with out it being requested by a customer...
 
You spell my name wrong again and I'll start calling you Dan Grey.......:D
 
fitzo said:
You spell my name wrong again and I'll start calling you Dan Grey.......:D
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Mike, don't you spell Mike,, Mike? :D :D

it worked, I lured you in Mike,
what little games that keep me ocupied right :D :D


dang I said ((little)),, now IG will have to say something , I'll hide :cool: maybe he won't see this ,,,, right :D

;)
:D
:D
 
i will not say that S30V is the best stainless steel but, compared it to 154CM, i'd go for S30V. i haven't seen any comparative data showing 154CM out classed S30V in terms of wear resistance, toughness, or corrosion resistance.

154CM out-classes 440C and ATS-34, YES I AGREE!!! because they are of same grade or equivalents... but not S30V.
 
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