S30V...Is it the be all and end all?

Dan Gray said:
..and like said if not Heat treated right you may as well sharpen up a piece of Cooper and use it..:)
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Ah yes.......there was a time when even cooper was the rage in new cutting tool technology . I mean copper : not cooper Dan :) See fitso , he's got me doin it too ;)
 
ok i got it now :o
but i ll 2nd the cpm154 looks like it will finich nice and easy for me i do still like cpms30v for a higher end steel but i think im going to stop using 440c and ats34 in favor of cpm154
butch
 
earan said:
i will not say that S30V is the best stainless steel but, compared it to 154CM, i'd go for S30V. i haven't seen any comparative data showing 154CM out classed S30V in terms of wear resistance, toughness, or corrosion resistance.

154CM out-classes 440C and ATS-34, YES I AGREE!!! because they are of same grade or equivalents... but not S30V.
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comparative data no, just personal use here and talk of other makers, this is my comparative data.
I'm taking into account, cost and workability, what if you want to mirror polish it for the customer how long will it take to do for him and at what price? that adds to the over all price also..
and is it worth the difference to the customer that, may never know the value difference in their use..
as I said I would not refuse it to a customer if asked to use it but if not it's most likely going to be 154CM,,

in fact all the SS knives I have on order, which is well over a year are
154CM no orders as of yet are in S30V , that tell me the average customer does not care..154CM is good enough that it's being used in CMP so it's (A) top of the line OVER ALL steel I'm saying..I'm not saying it's the best , the right steel for the right job..
154CM out-classes 440C and ATS-34, YES I AGREE!!!
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440C and ATS-34
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:confused:
440C doesn't come close to 154CM in steel make up IMO yes in corrosion resistance if you need it and toughness
IF you need the extra, but not in most cases with my customers...
Japan ATS 34 is a duplicate of US 154CM , both are the same now for all practical proposes.
but I'm going for the US made...call me old school..

keep in mind this is only my personal opinion with use of the steels.. and my experience with these steels so far ..
JMHO only
 
David Wesner said:
Ah yes.......there was a time when even cooper was the rage in new cutting tool technology . I mean copper : not cooper Dan :) See fitso , he's got me doin it too ;)
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Dave I'd call you an A$$hole but I don't know you well enouph yet :D :D
just kidding ;) , I will say my spelling is something to behold for sure..:o :D
 
earan, here is the recipe that works best for me for S30V. preheat at 1540, ramp up to 2030, hold for at least .5hr, get it out of the foil quick and quench in front of a fan down to where you can just hold it in your hand. Cool with tap water down to 70 or so, dry off and straight to the Ln2 for at least 2 hours. Temper twice at 400 for 2 hours each time. Finish grind and polish and do a final temper at 375 to remove all stress from grinding and finish work. I use the higher soak temp beacuse that is the furnace temp that works for me. The actual blade temp will be somewhat lower. Let me know how it works.. PHIL
 
All in fun Dan :D All in fun:thumbup: I learn from you almost everytime you post-the spelling thing is just a bonus.Mine looks a lot like yours if I don't spell check it.I catch enough He** around here as it is ,:foot: , I'm not giving anyone the chance to rip on me for spelling :D :D .

As far as my take on the "crux of the biscuit" . I have been using alot of different materials lately . Heavily experimenting with each one . I used CPM S30V recently for the first time. Other than the finishing,which was very labor intensive,more so than any material I've used to date.It's ability to take on and hold an edge was excellent.Really tough stuff!! I'm testing 154CM now,much easier finishing for sure. I haven't been able to put the Blade itself through the mill yet , so that verdict is still out.I have not used CPM 154 yet so I'm taking notes here.Heck,I'm always takin notes. Carry on Men :)
 
Mr. Wesner, just so you understand: I was joking with Dan in case you missed that. Sometime in the past before your join date here, there`were a couple instances wherein people spelled Dan's last name Grey instead of Gray. He was quick to correct them. I was simply returning the favor in a manner of good humor with a friend.

I noticed you mis-spelled my name also; I hope in humor and not sarcasm. ;)
 
Thank you, Sir!

I don't mind "fatzo", nor even "fatso". "fitso", however, just necessitated a response. :D
 
No it is not.
There will always be another steel come along and be the cats a**.
I like the cpm154 better at this time for instance.
 
fitzo said:
Mr. Wesner, just so you understand: I was joking with Dan in case you missed that. Sometime in the past before your join date here, there`were a couple instances wherein people spelled Dan's last name Grey instead of Gray. He was quick to correct them. I was simply returning the favor in a manner of good humor with a friend.

I noticed you mis-spelled my name also; I hope in humor and not sarcasm. ;)
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and don't you forget it..:D haha yeah Grey :D Mike do you remember when
Crayola named the color Grey? and when they changed the crayon to Gray for that color..I'm not sure why they did that. :confused:
many years ago across the great pond in the Royal seat there was a GrEy ancestor of mine and the name was indeed spelled Grey at that time , she had to unseat her self at the time and vacate the country, she also at that time changed the spelling of Grey to Gray to help keep her head in hiding.. well it didn't help in that respect :eek: but the name change stuck,,
that's the short version of it..
My great granddad in his younger years would fight anyone that would misspell the name on purpose and that from a man which initials was HOG :eek:

all in fun,, Dave Mike knows me well enouph to know I can fall on my face pretty easy without trying very hard:D
haha even the spell check don't know half the time what I'm trying to spell :confused: :)

TSOT kind of
I'll have to try that new fangled CMP154 when the price comes down ;)
 
Dan Gray,

that's your personal experience and i do respect that.

mirror finish, i do the final thicknes by surface grinding. so mirror finish is not a problem.
you've said that 440C doesn't comes close with CPM154 in steel makeup but duplicate with ATS-34. if i have to based it on admiral steel, they are the same. they have the same elemental composition. just a little +/-% from different makers, that's what i call equivalents.

Phil Wilson,

first of all i understand that you all here make hand knife. i make knife too (newbie) but with different application. a knife when tied on, thousands of dollars is at stake in seconds.
we can sacrifice a little in sharpness but not in toughness (point chipping). my first samples were soft at 58-60RC with no remarkable sharpness using low tempering temperatures.
i found good results (remarkable sharpness/toughness) even when using 1040/1065/1095C aust. temp with 540C tempers 2 hrs min (3x) with a slight decrease in corrosion resistance. of coarse, lower aust. temp is more tougher. :)
 
Dan & Fitzo , I should probably explain . Both of you guys are so active on this forum that even if we haven't met you , we feel like we know you. I myself am a really easy going guy ( it takes a lot to get me pissed ) so , most of my "jab" posts are ALWAYS purely in jest :)

S30V ; I am fairly new to the knifemaking world . I have however been working with tool steels all of my adult life (30+yrs) in Mold Shops. I am still trying to find "my" preferred steels to work with.I have and still do use a wide variety. My heat treat is done "by the book" most of the time.Most of the "recipes" on manufacturers data sheets are for cavity size blocks of steel,so the expert smiths have & still do experiment with little tweaks that might be a little different than spec sheets recommend. By "following directions" from data sheets , and from info gained from this forum & MANY other information sources I have had very good results with almost all of the materials I use.I still struggle with forging 52100,but that will come with experience.
So... the question.....S30V , why make Blades out of anything else? Is it the be all end all?

Why use anything else ? Customers ask for Blades made out of specific materials other than S30V.After using many different materials I can say without reserve that there are many great Blade steels,most have their place.

Be all end all ? No... Mr. Ralph said it best. Here is a picture I posted about a year ago of a 2000-3000 yr old , at the time ,"State of the Art" copper double edge dagger
We've come a long way..............
 
earan said:
Dan Gray,

that's your personal experience and i do respect that.

mirror finish, i do the final thicknes by surface grinding. so mirror finish is not a problem.
you've said that 440C doesn't comes close with CPM154 in steel makeup but duplicate with ATS-34. if i have to based it on admiral steel, they are the same. they have the same elemental composition. just a little +/-% from different makers, that's what i call equivalents.

. :)
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I guess the point I was making is when you said
earan said:
154CM out-classes 440C and ATS-34, YES I AGREE!!! because they are of same grade or equivalents... .
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when you put 154CM above ATS34? as "out classes it."
154CM is the same make up as ATS34 much more so than 440C is.. the two
154CM/ATS34 and 440C are of two different animals
and in knife making has won it's own places of use..

so the make up is scrutinized greatly and not generalized..there are many threads here that show this..

it's been talked about, the difference in industrial use versus knives and why our process differ from one and the other..
which would be your point in what you use it for at your job..
all steels have it's place, that's why there are so many of them in the first place.
We as makers have the task of determining what steel is good for what knife used for what task. one steel will not fit all knives and do it well..for all users and different levels and tools at hand..

I just want the reader to know the differences and similarities when they are put into comparing each other, 440c has it uses and 154CM and ATS has it's place as well as S30V..

on mirror polishing
I too have and use a surface grinder so on either steel ,, I'm talking apples to apples ..Which is easier of the two? if given the same tools to work with...there are many here that do not own a S/G ..
yes it would be easier for you and I..but still the two are at different difficulty..
so it would be of a great concern to them that don't..
using
either of the steels concerning toughness (in the need for knives as that is what these forums are concerned with)
is well into enough toughness, IMO , if you use them as knives are intended to be used..
so that for me would leave,, easy of use ( grinding), cost with edge holding ability,, all in combination.

still, again if a customer wants S30V I don't have a problem doing that
he's going to pay dearly though in comparison..is it worth it to them as the user,
this I will explain on a per order bases if it comes up..
just my 2 cents...
 
Dave you wrote your post while I was jabbing at mine here and there this morning
so yours got posted before mine did..

I'm so bad at words , at time I get taken the wrong way, I do try not to do that..yes all in jest
I don't get OP'ed here..
if I had a problem with anyone it would be by phone or e-mail this would not be the place for that IMHO so if you all don't hear for me in that way you know I'm ok with anything said to here me :D


you did touch on what I wrote and is true..what we do does venture off somewhat from the big industry for sure.
 
Assuming CPM154 is a powdered version of 154CM, what is it about CPM154 that would make it better (there's a loaded word) than S30V? What properties of CPM154 would be better -- workability, corrosion resistance, edge holding, toughness. . .? TIA
 
ras said:
Assuming CPM154 is a powdered version of 154CM, what is it about CPM154 that would make it better (there's a loaded word) than S30V? What properties of CPM154 would be better -- workability, corrosion resistance, edge holding, toughness. . .? TIA
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CPM154 is a powdered version of 154CM
from what I know about it
they say the carbides are distributed better in the process of making it..and it's pricey still..I'm waiting to see how much fad or hoopla is in it as time goes on....until then it's the reg stuff for me..:)
it's new and I can't say much about it. and I wouldn't say it's any better or worse then S30V still OMO
 
i can say this about cpm154 it sure grinds better and finishes quicker then ats34 i did a batch of each and im grinding side by side i ll have to get the dead on Rc on both but they should be close as per specs
 
Dan Gray,

let me know your stand point why you choose 154CM over ATS-34 and 440C. is it cost or workability?
 
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