S30V questions (Cliff Stamp u r welcome to post)

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Apr 20, 2003
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Since S30V is now the wonder steel on the block I am wondering if it has any major drawbacks

How does it compare to D2, M2, VG-10, BG-42, S90, 440V

What's the best RC for S30V in a 3-4" folder?

I know steel threads have been done many times before but I always learn something "new" with each one :)

I'm more interested in a user perspective and not merely on theoretical/data sheet specs

I noticed that Crucible site is often at odds with what users generally say about a certain steel. For example D2 looks pretty bad on their sheets across all aspects but I hear differently from those who actually use it.

Anybody feel free to reply but just hopefully keep it flame-free :)
 
D2 looks bad on the spec sheets as it is usually compared to fairly extreme steels like CPM-10V which has five times the wear resistance and similar toughness. I have used both and yes 10V is a huge upgrade, however it also costs a lot more, and is more difficult for the maker to finish so you can expect to pay a lot more. The higher alloy CPM steels also demand very high soak temperatures and deep cryo for maximum performance so the heat treating can be difficult / expensive. In addition, wear resistance isn't in a proportional relationship with edge retention, so don't expect your CPM-10V blade to stay sharp five times longer.

The drawback of CPM-S30V is that frequently the hardness is dropping compared to the steels that it is replacing. Hardness is the critical factor in many aspects of knife performance, how the edge responds to being impacted, rolled or dented are all very strongly linked to hardness. When Spyderco dropped the hardness of CPM-S60V way down to 55 RC, these problems surfaced on the boards, as well as sharpening difficulties because of the soft steel and high alloy content. At a similar hardness, S30V will have a slight advantage in some kinds of edge retention compared to ATS-34 and other similar class steels due to the higher wear resistance. It will be vastly inferior to S90V and the like which can get harder (62/63 RC) and have a much greater wear resistance.

As for the optimal hardness, as hard as you can get it will keep the sharpening at a minimum, and make it go smoothly when it needs to be done. The edge will also remain crisp the longest. Now of you need a folder for very tough jobs, like cutting bone, hardened metals, digging in rocky soil or similar, a high RC will bring you problems due to fracture. However I would suggest a different steel for that kind of use. While S30V has been promoted using all kinds of extreme claims, I have used it, and as on the spec sheets by crucible, the impact toughness relevant to knives is in the same class as ATS-34 and other steels and the ductility similar.

-Cliff
 
Hello Cliff,
If you don't mind, may I ask again your professional opoinion about the toughness/ductility and edge holding ability of ATS 34, S30V, & S90V. By the way, is S90V similar or same as CPM10V?
If I make blades that are very identical in size(1/2inch wide,3/32thick, & 4 inches long) out of the above metals, heat treat them to their optimum hardness(ATS@58-61RC,S30V@58-62RC,S90V & CPM10V@60-63RC), and all are sharpen the same way like a razor blade(hollow ground), which among them will hold it's edge the LONGEST after cutting a manila rope for 1 hour, or say after 100 slicing strokes on same material(m.rope)? My other question is about their toughness/ductility. If all the above blades are subjected to a continues pressure of say 5 pounds per square foot when clamped on a bench vise, and with this continues pressure applied 3 inches above the grip of the vise or one inch below the tip of the blade, how far would S90V or CPM10V go(degree of bent) before it breaks as compared to the rest?
Your very educated and well respected response to this inquiry will be very much appreciated. peacock:)
 
With the exception of one batch of larger blades which I heat treated to ~59HRC (tested), I make hunting and bird and trout knives that I always heat treat to a min 60 HRC.
Based on Crucible's specs and my experience, I don't think you can get 62 HRC out of S30V. I haven't tried tempering below 400 F though.
At 60 it is not easy to get the wire edge off.

As to cryo, it is my experience that D2 gets a bigger benefit than S30V. Crucible reccomends freezing at dry ice temperatures as does Bohler/Uddeholm which is my source for D2.
I find it easier to get D2 above 60 than S30V.
 
Originally posted by curious2003
Since S30V is now the wonder steel on the block I am wondering if it has any major drawbacks
It doesn't resist corrosion like Talonite, hold an edge as long as S90V or 10V, and isn't as tough as 3V. It's a dismal failure:p
Actually, I would say...no.
How does it compare to D2, M2, VG-10, BG-42, S90, 440V
All things being equal, hardness-wise, IMO it's a direct upgrade for any of them in virtually all respects with the exception of wear resistance vs 420V(S90V). Not sure how much practical difference there is in corrosion resistance between some of these, as I've had zero problems with VG-10, BG-42, S90V, S30V, or even D2M for that matter. Haven't used 440V...
What's the best RC for S30V in a 3-4" folder?
Don't know about best. I've got three different S30V blades, but they're all within ~a Rc point or two of each other, and I haven't noticed alot of difference in actual use. If I had to choose one as "best" it would actually be the DDR at ~59, which is the lowest of the three. That probably has more to do with the fact the knives are very different, have been used accordingly, and have different blade and edge geometries, than a difference in the HT.
I seem to remember reading something Jerry Hossom wrote in the past about performance differences between blades of the same material, and with the same hardness, achieved through different HT cycles, and find that intriguing, but it's one of those things that will probably remain a mystery, though I'd love to hear more from makers who've had the opportunity to test blades accordingly. I assume it has to do with grain structure, but that kind of comparison is way beyond Joe knifenut(me). Not something earth-shattering to most of us, I imagine, but it sure sounds interesting, and things like that remind me there are always going to be gray areas, instead of just absolutes.
 
I should know better than to climb into these threads, but there's a fair amount of misinformation flying here. A knife blade is the composite result of the steel used, the manner in which it is processed, resulting chemistry from that processing, blade geometry, and the purposes for which it is built. All of these are interrelated. Perception of the final result is based on empirical observations which may or may not be related to what the knifemaker/company had in mind when he/they made the blade.

S30V is an excellent steel, substantially superior in every measurable way to any other stainless made. With 4% Vanadium it has greater wear resistance at Rc59-60 than other stainless steels, and many nonstainless steels regardless of their hardness. It's fine grain structure compared with other stainless steels, the result of particle metallurgy and chemical composition, allows it to be sharpened to a finer edge. And it posseses higher lateral impact toughness than most steels, especially other stainless steels. That said, all these relate to chemistry. What remains is how they are processed and geometry.

S30V is highly susceptible to heat treating failures which will cause it to be much softer than the published heat treating schedule suggests. Factory production of S30V blades is challenging to do properly, since it is extremely difficult to quench a thousand blades as efficiently as just a few, resulting in lower hardness which adversely effects both hardness and impact toughness. Lower hardness may actually be less tough, an anomoly compared with most high alloy steels. To realize the best performance from an S30V edge it must be properly finished; rough edges will not stand hard use, nor will they wear well in normal cutting.

Why is S30V a good steel? Because it is an effective balance between the attributes that make a steel good for knife blades. It offers good toughness, a high level of very hard carbides, and a fine grain structure. Add that it is also stainless, and you have a steel that is ideal for most of the reasons that people buy knives. Does that make it best for everyone? No. Individuals have their own, highly subjective take on what they want from a blade, and depending on that subjective demand other steels might better serve.

Just for the record, what Crucible Steel has discovered from some years of actual use in high volume stamping dies, CPM-3V (3% Vanadium) is outperforming CPM-10V (10% Vanadium) by a substantial margin. What was revealed is that the issue of wear resistance is also an issue of impact toughness. Microchipping is a major component of "wear". The same is generally true of knife blades in "normal" use.

Knifemakers are a fairly chatty community. we share information regularly, and amass a LOT of data both from our own individual testing and that of our customers. Concensus, measured by the performance of hundreds of knives in dozens of applications, is that S30V is an outstanding steel. I can promise you that NO knifemaker works with S30V because he likes to. It's a b*tch to work.

And we haven't even touched on geometry... :)

The bottom line though is that if you think the message on S30V is hype, buy something else. It's your knife, and most knifemakers and companies make knives of lots of different steels. The choice is entirely yours.
 
Hey Jerry, great post, can I hire you to write replys for me? :)

Cliff, a while back when S30-V was first starting to show up you expressed you had no interest in the steel, have you tried the steel since then?
 
We've had very good results both in the lab and in the field. Jerry is right in that heat treat is absolutely critical...more so than S60V or S90V. My guess is the Nitrogen content that requires the close heat treating tolerances and specs. I've seen an S30V completely decarborize with improper heat treat.

sal
 
Crucible does not show any Nitrogen in its published Specs for S30V. I queried the tech desk about it a while back and got no answer.
I am not sure what its role would be. I have read in these threads that it substitutes for Carbon, but since the percentages are much lower (~0.1) it can't be occupying the same sites with the same coordination number WRT the Iron and other metal atoms in the lattice.
I ran a search on Google with vague results as far as the role of N2 in the crystal chemistry of steel.
 
It's my understanding Crucible has one or more patents pending on S30V. It's quite likely the full technical description of the steel is not disclosed.
 
:eek: :confused: :eek:

Wow..........I didnt know you could spell all those big words!! :eek:

And I totally concur.......S30V is the best Stainless that has ever been made!
 
Damn! We have Mr. Jerry Hossom, MR. Tom Mayo, Mr. Sal Glesser and
Mr. Rob Simonich all replying to this thread!:eek: This must be an important topic! ;)

Seriously, I'm glad to read and see what each of you gentlemen have to say about the new and hot blade steel S30V.
 
I feel honoured as well :)

Although S30V has been out for a while now knife companies still are slow to incorporate the steel into their products. I see Spyderco making much progress here but not companies such as BM

Is it safe to assume the next few years will be S30V concentrated since it is a steel FOR knives and excels in so many different areas?
or will Crucible release better steels soon and S30V will be overtaken before it even had a chance to shine?
 
Hi Shgeo. As Jerry mentioned, Crucible kept the N info "under their hat" while they applied for patents. Crucible's spec calls for up to .2%. They told me that they normally get about .1%.

sal
 
Lots of references on nitrided steels are in Russian. They've generally pioneered the whole subject.

I can't imagine why S30V would be replaced anytime soon. Crucible may well use the same technology for other steels and other purposes, but not for a stainless knife steel. They may be improving their process however. The last batch of CPM-3V I had heat treated suddenly jumped a point in hardness to Rc62, using the same schedule. That caused me to do some testing, and the steel is just as tough as ever. I had to break a blade to find that out though... :(
 
Originally posted by curious2003
I feel honoured as well :)

Although S30V has been out for a while now knife companies still are slow to incorporate the steel into their products. I see Spyderco making much progress here but not companies such as BM


In all fairness, Benchmade is using it in the production 921 Switchback model. I also suspect we will see more knives from them and other manufacturers in the future. :D
 
Jerry Hossom,
reeve is using it on there folders but keeping the rc a couple of points lower. what do you feel is the current range of rc to stay within? pros / cons?
scott
 
Interesting thread !

Originally posted by Sal Glesser
My guess is the Nitrogen content that requires the close heat treating tolerances and specs. I've seen an S30V completely decarborize with improper heat treat.
sal
Originally posted by Jerry Hossom
It's my understanding Crucible has one or more patents pending on S30V. It's quite likely the full technical description of the steel is not disclosed.
Originally posted by Sal Glesser
Hi Shgeo. As Jerry mentioned, Crucible kept the N info "under their hat" while they applied for patents. Crucible's spec calls for up to .2%. They told me that they normally get about .1%.
sal

Excellent info Sal & Jerry. I'd read about the Nitrogen content in S30V a few months back in one of the knife mags... but hadn't seen anything posted here or on the web or at Crucible. Thanks for clarifying what was going on.

For the user's out there wondering about pros/cons of steels... ya gotta sift and sort through a lot of cr@p and misinformation on this forum, and filter in the information from those who have some knowledge and passion about steels, grinding or forging thereof, heat treating, and blade testing.

Hint ;), FWIW, ... some of those I've chosen (learned?) to filter "in" have posted in this thread. Your filters may vary (YFMV).

A quote from Jerry Busse regarding INFI's composition I harvested off this forum a while back:
Originally posted by Jerry Busse
Carbon makes up approximately .50% with Nitrogen hitting the .11% mark. The nitrogen combines with some of the other elements and enables INFI to deliver enormous levels of toughness and excellent wear resistance at high hardness. The relative ease of re-sharpening has, likewise, become one of its hallmarks.

Thanks again, Jerry Busse, President, Busse Combat Knife Co.

Question: Would like to hear Jerry's and Sal's (or anyone else for that matter) take on what Nitrogen brings to the party for S30V. The more specific (e.g. which other elements nitrogen is combining with, and what that does to the steel's performance) the better.
 
Ok, I re-ran my "S30V + Nitrogen" search, and found a quote from Sal & dialex on May 8th, 2003, here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...rpage=40&highlight=s30v nitrogen&pagenumber=2
Originally posted by Sal Glesser
It is my understanding that Nitrogen essentially replaces the carbon atom in the steel matrix. X15tn uses .21 Nitrogen but a very low .42 carbon. The theory is that the Nitrogen will do the job of the carbon in edge retention but not have the corrosion problem due to the lower carbon content. Busse knives use a Nitrogen based steel as well. H-1 uses .1 Nitrogen and a very low .15 carbon.

Crucible tried to find the "ideal" combination of C & N in S30V.
All of these materials seem to have different results in different areas.

Hitachi's ZDP-189 packs a whoppin' 3.0 carbon and 20% chrome and little else.
sal
Originally posted by dialex
The nitrogen replaces the carbon without "stealing" the chrome, thus stain resistance.

Sal may have meant to type "... Nitrogen will do the job of the carbon in edge retention but not have the corrosion problem due to the lower chrome content."

Ok, so nitrogen combines with something (iron, vanadium, molybdenum, all?) in forming the martensitic steel matrix, but nitrogen doesn't combine as readily with chromium as does carbon, thereby leaving more free chromium to become chromium oxide and resist oxidation, corrosion (rust).

I found this blurb on the web, http://www.stratcor.com/products/Final_Brochure.pdf :

NITROGEN: AN EFFICIENT STRENGTHENER
The vanadium nitrides formed by vanadium and
nitrogen are more stable and more finely dispersed
than vanadium carbides. For that reason, vanadium
strengthening is more efficient in the presence of
nitrogen.

What are ya'll hearing from Crucible... does nitrogen also form hard nitrides with Vanadium and Molybdenum in S30V's case? If so, are the effects primarily in the strength and toughness area, or the wear resistance area?
 
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