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S30V questions (Cliff Stamp u r welcome to post)
- Thread starter curious2003
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Thank you.
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I don't have much experience with BG-42. It is basically ATS-34/154CM with some Vanadium added for grain refinement and wear resistance. It's a good steel. My primary reason for not using it has been its availability in the sizes I like to use.
As Rob said, S30V doesn't like to bend. I made a blade for breaking early on in my work with S30V and had trouble getting it to bend at all. (getting old I guess...) I finally clamped it near the point and it broke but I couldn't tell you what angle it was at, maybe 30 degrees.
If you recall, back in my original rant, I mentioned I hadn't even touched on geometry. Each steel has a preferred edge and blade geometry to maximize its potential. A CPM-3V edge, ground too thin and used in chopping on hard materials will deform. So, you just don't grind it too thin if the design goal and intended use is chopping hard materials. It will bend and take a set. I'm speaking now of pretty extreme impacts and very fine edges, but I've seen it happen in test blades. I've seen other blades simply show a small flat spot where the edge hit something very hard. It sharpens out pretty easily, and lesser steels likely would have chipped in those same circumstances.
S30V is really pretty remarkable in this regard. It doesn't like to bend, but it resists chipping amazingly well. A test I use to challenge steel toughness and when I'm playing with edge geometries is to drive a 10d nail into a board, and bend it to 45 degrees. I then chop straight down on the bottom inch of the nail, near the board to minimize the nail flexing with impact. This creates huge lateral stress on the edge. This certainly isn't very scientific, but it gives me a subjective sense of how the steel or edge is likely to perform with reasonable abuse. Nail, rock, or whatever, these things do sometimes happen to knife blades and I like to know what to expect. Most steels I've used, including D2, A2, 154CM, ATS-34, will chip out a piece anywhere from 1/4" to 1/2" in diameter. (btw, these are usually large 8+" blades and they all use my normal convex edge). When I did this with the first S30V blade I made, I was a little stunned to see maybe a 1 to 1-1/2mm chip. Not much. It sharpened out and the blade is still in use today. 3V doesn't chip; it bends a little.
As Rob said, S30V doesn't like to bend. I made a blade for breaking early on in my work with S30V and had trouble getting it to bend at all. (getting old I guess...) I finally clamped it near the point and it broke but I couldn't tell you what angle it was at, maybe 30 degrees.
If you recall, back in my original rant, I mentioned I hadn't even touched on geometry. Each steel has a preferred edge and blade geometry to maximize its potential. A CPM-3V edge, ground too thin and used in chopping on hard materials will deform. So, you just don't grind it too thin if the design goal and intended use is chopping hard materials. It will bend and take a set. I'm speaking now of pretty extreme impacts and very fine edges, but I've seen it happen in test blades. I've seen other blades simply show a small flat spot where the edge hit something very hard. It sharpens out pretty easily, and lesser steels likely would have chipped in those same circumstances.
S30V is really pretty remarkable in this regard. It doesn't like to bend, but it resists chipping amazingly well. A test I use to challenge steel toughness and when I'm playing with edge geometries is to drive a 10d nail into a board, and bend it to 45 degrees. I then chop straight down on the bottom inch of the nail, near the board to minimize the nail flexing with impact. This creates huge lateral stress on the edge. This certainly isn't very scientific, but it gives me a subjective sense of how the steel or edge is likely to perform with reasonable abuse. Nail, rock, or whatever, these things do sometimes happen to knife blades and I like to know what to expect. Most steels I've used, including D2, A2, 154CM, ATS-34, will chip out a piece anywhere from 1/4" to 1/2" in diameter. (btw, these are usually large 8+" blades and they all use my normal convex edge). When I did this with the first S30V blade I made, I was a little stunned to see maybe a 1 to 1-1/2mm chip. Not much. It sharpened out and the blade is still in use today. 3V doesn't chip; it bends a little.
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Thanks again Jerry and Rob for the great info. It really helps me understand a knifemaker's perspective on these newer hi-tech steels. This would be great stuff to put on your websites!
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Jerry, I've been following this thread with great interest and have learned a great deal from your experiences. Your site says that you aren't accepting any orders at the moment. When do you feel you'll be caught up and ready to once again accept orders. Seems like I've been waiting a long time for the opportunity to order one of your CPM-3V knives.
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Back to the question regarding S30V optimal RC for a 3-4" folder, Chris Reeve's Sebenza was brought up. I recall from earlier heated threads about whether it was really the "optimal" RC for maximum performance or a shortcut of sorts. Mr. Cliff Stamp among others seemed to believe that the RC should have been higher. Yet later on some members posted that Chris Reeve's was "right all along" as supposedly other custom makers began dropping the S30V RC levels lower to match the Seb's. Is there any truth to this? If so, which makers?
How about those who chose to have it stay at RC60+?
How about those who chose to have it stay at RC60+?
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I'm not aware of anyone hardening S30V above Rc60. If Chris is using Rc58-59, and a number of makers are using Rc59-60, I seriously doubt anyone can tell the difference in practical use. It seems to me that question is intended to provoke controversy, which is why many of us knifemakers don't hang around here very much...
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I apologize if it is a question that might provoke controversy but I am merely trying to understand an issue that has already been discussed at length on the forums that seems to have not been settled. I guess one can forget about the makers since it will always be provoking to compare opposing reasons for why each thinks S30V or any steel should be done a certain way, but I don't see how any understanding of real world performance can be had without some comparisons. That is why I started this thread under "knife reviews and testing".
People buy knives wanting the best for their money. If their are many products and one can't purchase them all then what usually happens is comparisons between them. That includes steel types, treatment, etc That is why steel threads always come up. I apologize if it puts any custom makers in the spotlight as I would not have hesitated to ask about a company's steel treats. However Chris Reeve did address this particular question and there was a solid foundation to those who did not accept it. I think that the answer to the question would be good for both parties involved. Those who supported the lower S30V levels would find vindication if this were true. In fact they have stated that this has happened. I just was wondering which knives they applied to if so.
There are those such as myself who would really like to know if the S30V level in the Sebs are really the "best" level, b/c that answers the question of what RC S30V in a folder should be. Like I said Cliff Stamp strongly disagreed with the Seb levels. However if there was some sort of consensus among makers, that would help many of us to understand more about this issue.
I do not "intend to provoke controversy". I am sure we all can discuss objectively the merits of something without resorting to ill feeling
People buy knives wanting the best for their money. If their are many products and one can't purchase them all then what usually happens is comparisons between them. That includes steel types, treatment, etc That is why steel threads always come up. I apologize if it puts any custom makers in the spotlight as I would not have hesitated to ask about a company's steel treats. However Chris Reeve did address this particular question and there was a solid foundation to those who did not accept it. I think that the answer to the question would be good for both parties involved. Those who supported the lower S30V levels would find vindication if this were true. In fact they have stated that this has happened. I just was wondering which knives they applied to if so.
There are those such as myself who would really like to know if the S30V level in the Sebs are really the "best" level, b/c that answers the question of what RC S30V in a folder should be. Like I said Cliff Stamp strongly disagreed with the Seb levels. However if there was some sort of consensus among makers, that would help many of us to understand more about this issue.
I do not "intend to provoke controversy". I am sure we all can discuss objectively the merits of something without resorting to ill feeling
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The words of Sal Glesser:
From this thread in the Spyderco Forum here at BFC: S30V hardness -- questions?
From this thread in the Spyderco Forum here at BFC: S30V hardness -- questions?
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curious2003
i agree with you. i have followed the s30v hardness all along and also get confused.
i own several reeve knives and have never had a problem with any of them.
so what the hell... the way i figure it we will never know what is "best"
i just think... 58/60, mine is 59, right in the middle so there
stuck in the middle again
i agree with you. i have followed the s30v hardness all along and also get confused.
i own several reeve knives and have never had a problem with any of them.
so what the hell... the way i figure it we will never know what is "best"
i just think... 58/60, mine is 59, right in the middle so there
stuck in the middle again
If the Sebbie is at 58-59 and the S30V Paul Bos is doing for most of the famous knife makers and Buck Knives is at 59.5-60 we are not talking about a huge difference anyway.
My 2 cents is that someone with some agenda unknown to me has been bad-mouthing S30V all along from the very beginning. If pretty much all makers, including and especially all the very well respected ones, agree on S30V being the best compromise for now who am I to question that.
Pretty much all user reports about their S30V blades from well-known makers like either CRK or all the guys doing their HT at Paul Bos had been overwhelmingly positiv - so I think even the greatest doubter should realize that this steel in effect was designed especially for the cutlery industry, pretty much all the famous makers jumped on it as the best compromise steel and rave about its qualities and after the first years of field experience all users report that the steel is all that and even more too !
So anyone still questioning this is either dumb-as-a-brick, has his mind-set targeted around world-wide conspiracy theories against knife users or just plainly has an agenda.
Just my 2 cents
Klaus
My 2 cents is that someone with some agenda unknown to me has been bad-mouthing S30V all along from the very beginning. If pretty much all makers, including and especially all the very well respected ones, agree on S30V being the best compromise for now who am I to question that.
Pretty much all user reports about their S30V blades from well-known makers like either CRK or all the guys doing their HT at Paul Bos had been overwhelmingly positiv - so I think even the greatest doubter should realize that this steel in effect was designed especially for the cutlery industry, pretty much all the famous makers jumped on it as the best compromise steel and rave about its qualities and after the first years of field experience all users report that the steel is all that and even more too !
So anyone still questioning this is either dumb-as-a-brick, has his mind-set targeted around world-wide conspiracy theories against knife users or just plainly has an agenda.
Just my 2 cents
Klaus
Hardness is not the end all proof of performance. The overall heat treat process involves about 5 or 6 steps that all must be done according to very strict guidelines to get the maximum toughness and edge holding properties. One can heat treat a knife to 60c rockwell and not have a tough knife..........or one can treat a knife to 60c rockwell that will be brittle........the cryo and temper cyles are just as important as the stress relief and max hardness ones.
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klaus
I am confused as well. The question was not if S30V was overhyped or not but HOW S30V is to be treated to have its potential maximized.
I am confused as well. The question was not if S30V was overhyped or not but HOW S30V is to be treated to have its potential maximized.
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There is no single answer to that question. What is optimum depends on a host of factors that range from user needs, to sharpenability, to the balance of toughness versus wear resistance, to blade and edge geometry, to individual maker preferences, to....
The variables are many and you simply cannot narrow it down any more than the ranges that have been discussed here. As I mentioned earlier I seriously doubt you can see any meaningful difference between blades hardened at Rc58 or Rc60. Most custom makers will push the envelope more, knowing they generally have a more demanding user and possibly having better control of the final edge geometry than do most factories. We are able to employ blade geometries that can't be ground by automated machinery, so we might have less concern for a blade snapping under heavy use. Custom blades are more purpose built, usually having a specific design purpose, whereas factory knives often have to accommodate a wider range of applications, employed by vastly more diverse audience. Etc., etc...
Your best bet is to buy a knife from someone, whether maker or factory, in whom you can place your trust. Integrity matters more than anything else.
The variables are many and you simply cannot narrow it down any more than the ranges that have been discussed here. As I mentioned earlier I seriously doubt you can see any meaningful difference between blades hardened at Rc58 or Rc60. Most custom makers will push the envelope more, knowing they generally have a more demanding user and possibly having better control of the final edge geometry than do most factories. We are able to employ blade geometries that can't be ground by automated machinery, so we might have less concern for a blade snapping under heavy use. Custom blades are more purpose built, usually having a specific design purpose, whereas factory knives often have to accommodate a wider range of applications, employed by vastly more diverse audience. Etc., etc...
Your best bet is to buy a knife from someone, whether maker or factory, in whom you can place your trust. Integrity matters more than anything else.
@rdangerer & @curiuos2003,
sorry for jumping on the thread and possibly making myself not very clear - as I had been browsing through the forums in-depth earlier this year and last year looking up whatever information about S30V was avaiable I very much wondered about some strong statements against this steel for which I found no real-world basis at all.
In this thread a lot of knowleadable people gave some very good input about their S30V experience and as expected all very positive ones. My personal believe as stated in my original post is that a difference of 1 point won´t make such a difference in real-world use but I only had one S30V blade so far so I can´t really compare different ones.
My point regarding badmouthing S30V I think can be well understood reading this thread from the beginning or some of the other S30V threads as well - but I agree that it didn´t add anything to the original question asked.
Klaus
sorry for jumping on the thread and possibly making myself not very clear - as I had been browsing through the forums in-depth earlier this year and last year looking up whatever information about S30V was avaiable I very much wondered about some strong statements against this steel for which I found no real-world basis at all.
In this thread a lot of knowleadable people gave some very good input about their S30V experience and as expected all very positive ones. My personal believe as stated in my original post is that a difference of 1 point won´t make such a difference in real-world use but I only had one S30V blade so far so I can´t really compare different ones.
My point regarding badmouthing S30V I think can be well understood reading this thread from the beginning or some of the other S30V threads as well - but I agree that it didn´t add anything to the original question asked.
Klaus
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I have a Strider Custom Folder GB model and it is in S30V I also have a SA model in ATS-34 you know what? They both are great! Each steel has its own thing though. The S30V in my Strider GB seems to hold the edge longer than the SA. When cutting wood or rope.
I would say that S30V is the hottest thing out right now, until the next wonder metal comes along.
BG-42 or S30V will get the job done.
I would say that S30V is the hottest thing out right now, until the next wonder metal comes along.
BG-42 or S30V will get the job done.