S35VN hard to find? - Reclosed

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nsm said:
Thanks for sharing the message from Chuck. It is a bald face lie to say there is a problem with Crucible's steel.

I think some people prefer a saw cut edge because if not done properly, shearing can leave a burr and/or cause the strips to go out of flat. Our strips have minimal if any burr and are flattened after shearing.

Yes, Aldo is another trusted supplier of our steel.
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Bob Shabala,

Are you calling me a liar?

Chuck
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
Bob Shabala,

Are you calling me a liar?

Chuck
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If you're saying that you're not buying Crucible steel because there is a problem with the steel, then yes, you're not being honest. I'll be the first to admit there there have been occasional defects in the steel we sell. We go above and beyond to make sure we fix the situation and make the customer happy. We have sold about 460,000 pounds of CPM Cutlery steel over the past 12 months and recorded maybe 10 claims for defects. None from you that I'm aware of so I don't know how you can claim our steel has a problem.
 
Chuck and Bob. Lets keep the problem off the forum. I suggest you take care of the problem by email.
A mud fight just gets everyone dirty.
I am going to close this yhread to keep it civil.

I suggest anyone having questions or concerns about this call/PM/email both parties and find out for themselves.
 
I think closing this thread is not the best decision. Nobody has broken rules and now we have to imagine a conversation or flood the participants with emails? That's how rumours will happen.

I really don't think Bob and Chuck will care to answer everybody's emails.

This was a premature closure that I believe made matters worse for NSM and AKS.
 
I hate to see a contentious exchange between two outfits that I admire and rely upon. It's unusual.

I earn a living making knives from CPM 3V that I buy directly from NSM and I'm grateful to be able to buy this material from these guys in the way that I do. We use about a ton of it a year, which is a hair on a gnat's ass, but we're able to order it rolled in whatever width and gauge and condition we need. There are services available such as shearing, waterjet, grinding that are all turn key. It ships quickly and with the best packaging in the industry. The one time I had an issue with an order that justified getting them involved they handled it quickly and with no BS. The ability to call and talk to a person who can actually help you if you have a question or problem is rare today. They're an honest and trustworthy vendor and it's my opinion that we're fortunate to have them as an option in our itty bitty teeny tiny industry.

That's not to say there can't be problems with the materials. Crucible is melting alloys with ingredients in quantities that don't like to all be molten and mixed together at the same time (like too much sugar in your sweet tea) spraying it out into a powder, heating and compacting it and then NSM it heating and rolling it out. That's complicated. There is a lot that can go wrong there. And it's being done in small quantities. I'm sure there are hiccups. But they're a good outfit and in my opinion it's the best material of its kind in the world, I'd hate for folks to get the wrong idea about it. There are other choices and other manufacturers who may make a material that is better for some finishes (CPM wouldn't be my first choice for a mirror finish) but if you're applying a satin or tumble finish like I do that's moot. Given the performance and reliability of the materials and the company processing them I personally have a very high opinion of them.
 
nsm said:
If you're saying that you're not buying Crucible steel because there is a problem with the steel, then yes, you're not being honest. I'll be the first to admit there there have been occasional defects in the steel we sell. We go above and beyond to make sure we fix the situation and make the customer happy. We have sold about 460,000 pounds of CPM Cutlery steel over the past 12 months and recorded maybe 10 claims for defects. None from you that I'm aware of so I don't know how you can claim our steel has a problem.
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Bob, I had no intention of publicly discussing you or Niagara Specialty Metals, but you seem to want a discussion.

1) You wrote "there have been occasional defects in the steel". Be specific when discussing the defects. What are the defects? Did you contact everyone who purchased steel from the same batch to tell them about defects?

2) You also wrote that you had "recorded maybe 10 claims for defects. None from you that I'm aware of so I don't know how you can claim our steel has a problem." If I understand what you wrote, if you're not told about a problem, it doesn't exist?

Our customers have experienced problems with Crucible steel. Some of the problems have been discussed here on BladeForums. The fact that you do not acknowledge problems doesn't mean they don't exist.

Bob, you and I have had several conversations via email and on the telephone. In this thread, you've demonstrated why communication stopped.

Chuck
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
Bob, I had no intention of publicly discussing you or Niagara Specialty Metals, but you seem to want a discussion.

1) You wrote "there have been occasional defects in the steel". Be specific when discussing the defects. What are the defects? Did you contact everyone who purchased steel from the same batch to tell them about defects?
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The most common defect we see is a surface imperfection. The defect is normally due to a larger carbide that elongates during the rolling process. It is the proverbial needle in a haystack and it is painful when you find it. As Nathan pointed out, these are normally not noticeable in a satin or tumbled finish. I understand it is awful when it shows up in a mirror finish due to the amount of work it takes to get to that point. We do not contact customers because the chance of it popping up in the same batch is as random as any other batch. Furthermore, it is my understanding that some customers don’t know what batch it is from because they never received certs from their supplier. We issue certs with every shipment as a way to isolate problems if there is a gross defect. I believe many of our authorized distributors follow this practice as a way to ensure the integrity and authenticity of their product.
Alpha Knife Supply said:
2) You also wrote that you had "recorded maybe 10 claims for defects. None from you that I'm aware of so I don't know how you can claim our steel has a problem." If I understand what you wrote, if you're not told about a problem, it doesn't exist?
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If I’m not told about a problem, how do I know there is one? We talk to customers every day, large and small, to make sure they are satisfied. We are eager to help people find solutions for their applications or to solve problems should they arise.

Alpha Knife Supply said:
Our customers have experienced problems with Crucible steel. Some of the problems have been discussed here on BladeForums. The fact that you do not acknowledge problems doesn't mean they don't exist.
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We are very proactive when we receive complaints or find them on the forum. We have privately reached out to people on the forum to make them whole if they have a problem with our steel. There are people here that can attest to that fact. Anyone who has a problem can contact me, Jeff or Frank at 1-800-424-0048 and we will do our very best to answer their questions and make sure they are satisfied.

Alpha Knife Supply said:
Bob, you and I have had several conversations via email and on the telephone. In this thread, you've demonstrated why communication stopped.
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Chuck, I reached out to you and Jessica via email this week in an attempt to find out what problems you were having with Crucible’s steel. I have not heard from either of you. It seems that you want to air this out publicly, which is fine with me. It will be good to clear up any misconceptions people may have about the quality and availability of our steel.
Bob
 
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Imperfection /defect ? " we don't sell defective steel but it may have imperfections !!!." I learned that word game early on . Please keep it civil. Document details, Order #. Date, steel type heat #, Lot # processing details ,Photos ,samples .You know the drill use the proceedures. it's gone too far when you have to have a referee to sort it out .
 
nsm said:
Chuck, I reached out to you and Jessica via email this week in an attempt to find out what problems you were having with Crucible’s steel. I have not heard from either of you. It seems that you want to air this out publicly, which is fine with me. It will be good to clear up any misconceptions people may have about the quality and availability of our steel.

Bob
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Since this thread blew up I’ve been contacted by several people. Multiple people are concerned about negative impact to the custom knife community. Others said the problem must be aired or fixes will not happen. I’ve been in this situation before with Bohler Uddeholm and the HIP can issue. I’ve decided to make the same choice I did with BU. BU solved their problem and we restocked their alloys. My intent in now publicly exposing the problem with Crucible steel is that it gets resolved.

The problems our customers reported are inclusions in the steel. I do not know if the inclusions affect the strength of the steel. They are clearly visible. The inclusions are not “surface imperfections”. They are inside the steel. The inclusions are found when grinding the primary bevels of the knife.

Years ago Crucible had a problem with inclusions in their steel. The problem was resolved and I did not read or hear about it for several years. Now the inclusions are back. I do not know what changed at Crucible to cause the inclusions. It appears there has been a material and/or process change.

In 2017, I called Crucible directly to tell them about the problem. I was sent to sales and could not get further. I told the salesman about the inclusions and he said he would pass it on. In Aug 2018 we also contacted Frank at NSM about the inclusion problem. When Frank responded, he CC’d Bob and Jeff at NSM on the e-mail.

I did not want to publicly discuss the inclusion problem. However, when Bob called me a liar, I had no choice but to respond. I have not impugned his character or him as a person. Something he has no problem publicly doing to me. I was not in the office the morning he “reached out”. He sent an email at 6:16 AM, a direct message at 8:18 AM and called me a liar at 10:22 AM. He knew about the inclusion problem from a recent post here on BladeForums and the email sent Aug 2018, yet he still called me a liar.

I hoped the inclusion problem could be resolved and we would restock Crucible steel. However, in this thread and in previous communications, Bob has made his position about me and AKS very clear. The culture of a company goes from the top down. Until there is a quality, culture and/or management change at NSM, I will not buy steel from them.

Chuck
 
I stated before that the defect is a result of larger carbides that elongate during the rolling process. They will stand out because they are typically a different hardness than the surrounding material. I have not seen any defects that are the results of inclusions. If you or any of your customers have material with inclusions or any other defects, please let me know so we can make arrangements to ship it here for evaluation. Our policy is to replace any material that is defective plus some extra to try and make up for the work that goes into making a knife. Our number is 800-424-0048 if anyone has something they want to discuss.

I agree with you that the culture of a company starts at the top. We go out of our way to ensure every interaction we have with our customers and vendors is a positive one. We tried to work with you so we could sell odd size pieces of sheets we had in the shop. You wanted pricing for everything we had and then would place an order for a few items. This is not the way distributors do business and I determined we could not continue doing this and give you distributor pricing. I believe this is the real reason you don't want to buy from us and that is fine. To hide behind a blanket statement of a quality issue is disingenuous.
 
nsm said:
I stated before that the defect is a result of larger carbides that elongate during the rolling process. They will stand out because they are typically a different hardness than the surrounding material. I have not seen any defects that are the results of inclusions. If you or any of your customers have material with inclusions or any other defects, please let me know so we can make arrangements to ship it here for evaluation. Our policy is to replace any material that is defective plus some extra to try and make up for the work that goes into making a knife. Our number is 800-424-0048 if anyone has something they want to discuss.

I agree with you that the culture of a company starts at the top. We go out of our way to ensure every interaction we have with our customers and vendors is a positive one. We tried to work with you so we could sell odd size pieces of sheets we had in the shop. You wanted pricing for everything we had and then would place an order for a few items. This is not the way distributors do business and I determined we could not continue doing this and give you distributor pricing. I believe this is the real reason you don't want to buy from us and that is fine. To hide behind a blanket statement of a quality issue is disingenuous.
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Interesting post.
 
I have been selling Crucible produced CPM materials that are converted from slab into sheet at Niagara Specialty Metals for well over 20 years now. I have sold a large percentage of this sheet product to the knife community during that 20 plus years. I am still selling CPM knife steels today and these CPM knife steels make up a large percentage of the knife steels we sell. CPM knife steels are excellent quality materials and have been for over 20 years.

I am a metallurgist and years of experience and common sense tell me that the perfect piece of steel has never been made. Occasionally defects do show up in steels.......it happens and it happens to all mills. It is how the mills handle these problems that matters! Crucible and NSM have always been quick to respond to any quality issues we have encountered and they have always taken care of the end user in these situations. I will continue to sell CPM knife steels going forward because these steels are of the highest quality and that is what our customers want and continue to use. We are a Crucible/NSM distributor and will continue to be going forward.

Thanks for listening - Scott D.
 
So what percentage of CPM steels are used for knives? Is it a significant market?
 
The cutlery business represents 15 to 30% of our sales depending on the product mix for a given year. CPM makes up about 60% of those sales. The balance are airmelt grades like 154-CM, 440-C and D-2. I don’t know how much CPM Crucible sells in a year but I think about 75% goes to rounds. The balance is rolled into plates or the slab we buy. We roll CPM slab into sheet or plate for industrial applications, food processing, medical equipment and cutlery. Crucible is in tune with the knife business and give us their full backing.
Our cutlery business has been increasing the past few years due to the support of our customers, the quality of our steel and our reputation as a company. It is significant and important.
 
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Shear cutting defintly effects the steel differently from saw cutting. Fact. You learn this pretty early as a welder fabricator and machinest.
Shear cutting screws up the structure of the metal within a distance from the cut. Fact...
I noticed the steel I get from zapp is saw cut. I know it is pressed by nsm or that is what i was told by zapp.
I love cpm3v. But I have noticed the zapp steel and BU are cleaner appearing and defiently more tight tolerances then the steel I get from nsm. Personally maybe just what I got.
Just my 2 cents.
 
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