S35VN or S30V or ELMAX?

Phil's shop is about 2 hours from me. I should give him a ring next time I head over to Amador County for wine tasting. I better make sure my checking account is ramped up. Specing a knife in his actual shop might be expensive! :D

Ankerson said:
I can expand a little on what Phil Wilson said about ELMAX. :)

I tested one of his knives in ELMAX at 62 RC and it is indeed very tough, holds an edge very well and will get extremely sharp. :thumbup:

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I did a full review on it here with photos:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792687&highlight=phil+wilson
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Reeek said:
Phil's shop is about 2 hours from me. I should give him a ring next time I head over to Amador County for wine tasting. I better make sure my checking account is ramped up. Specing a knife in his actual shop might be expensive! :D
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That could get very expensive in a hurry indeed. :D
 
Reeek, more like 3-31/2 hrs, even if you come over H88. No direct way to get here. Ironstone Winery is just 45 min from me and makes a nice destination if you have not been there yet. Just need a day or two notice to make sure I am here. Phil
 
Phil Wilson said:
ojfindon, All the steels you listed would make nice knives. you are already aware that the heat treating and geometry play a critical role so given that it is right on for each, I can offer some insight on some of the subtle differences in each grade. All you mentioned are in the stainless category so corrosion resistance would not be an issue given reasonable care.

CPM S30V, you will have a wider choicf makers with this one. It has been around long enough for most guys to work out the pros and cons. Most heat treaters will know what to do with it. I have made probably 100 or so fillet knives with it and that is a good test of all around balance of hardness and ductility. Be sure to ask for a sub zero quench since it makes a big difference on this grade. The 3% vanadium gives it some long range edge holding. I would specify RC 60 for the hardness for a hunter and 58,59 for a fillet or kitchen knife. All the high alloy stainless like this one do not take prying or chopping loads very well. This is especially true if you specify a thin grind and shallow angle edge.

CPM S35VN, I have not used this one myself but the addition of niobium should allow it to be pushed a little higher in hardness and the other tweaks to help improve the ductility. If you find a maker with experience then I think it would be an improvement over S30V. Could you tell the difference in edge holding or ductility? Probably not but the changes will most likely make it a little easier to work with for the maker.

CPM 154. This is the PM version of the old standby grade 154 CM. I still like the older grade better for some applications but the CPM did add some ductility and as a result for a utility hunter the hardness can be pushed up to RC 62/63. Even though there is no vanadium in this one it has 4% moly which contributes to a complex carbide that is almost as hard as vanadium. This combined with the higher hardness would give a little better performance over the 30V or 35V grades.

ELMAX I have only been using this one for a little over a year and 5 knives so far but it has demonstrated to be nice to work with. I have some test knives at RC 62 that do not chip with agressive whittling on seasoned fir. This is with a very thin edge behind the sharpened bevel (.010). Bohler claims a very fine PM structure and I think that contributes to the ductility and ease of working. Edge holding is very good due to the increased hardness and fine grain. You can get this steel very, very sharp. I think it would be a great candidate for your custom. This one also benefits from a subzero right after the quench and I would specify RC 61 as a good hardness target. Be sure your maker has a heat treater that has experience with the grade..

There are a lot of other steels, some mentioned here that make a fine custom. All have pros and cons, life is like that, but I wanted to speak to your original question. Hope this helps .. Phil
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Thanks, nice overview of the steels.

foxx said:
Bark River made a knife out of CPM S35VN, two actually, but they were just test runs. Mike wanted them to be used hard, and comments have been posted over at Knife Forums.
I got the Custom Highland Special in that steel, but I have not processed an animal with it, yet. One reviewer has processed 20 deer, with his, before a sharpening. He did have to use 1500 grit sandpaper and strop it. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/886279/tp/5/
BR has their Bravo 1 now in CPM154, I have not read the reviews.
IMHO, for a custom folder that will be "cared" for, I would not think the differences would be too noticable, could I tell the difference, I don't know. I would need the same knife, with each of those steels, and time to test them, to really know.
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I hear you on that one, I doubt I'll notice much of a difference, it's just knowing I got the "best" steel from my choices :)
 
Phil,

Thanks. I am definitely going to give you a call before I come over the hill next. Asn yes, I do always go 88 :) I look forward to our discussion. Amy and I make it over 3-4 times a year so probably in the March/April timeframe next ;) I'll warn you!

Rick

Phil Wilson said:
Reeek, more like 3-31/2 hrs, even if you come over H88. No direct way to get here. Ironstone Winery is just 45 min from me and makes a nice destination if you have not been there yet. Just need a day or two notice to make sure I am here. Phil
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Well, given the responses here, I'm leaning toward ELMAX. I just need to find out about heat treatment and something about the design of the knife, I haven't gotten a reply since I sent the questions on the 18th.
 
jfindion, good choice. If your maker needs a source for ELMAX Chuck at Alpha Knife supply has it on hand. I can give some hints on heat treating it if he needs it. Phil
 
ELMAX heat treat- ramp up to 2100F, 15 minute soak, fast quench-4 bar if in vacuum furnace or a good plate quench or forced air.

Deep freeze as soon as the steel has cooled to room temperature, -120 or -300, both work, the lower temp will give a small hardness increase.

Two tempers x 2 hours each. 480F 61 Rc
390F 62 Rc

If your furnace will only heat to 1985F then soak for 30 minutes and expect about a point drop in hardness. You can still get 61 Rc with 390F tempers if you deep freeze.

Or for maximum toughness heat to 2010F, 30 minutes, fast quench and 480F tempers for 2 hours twice. Expect 59 Rc.

In lab tests ELMAX at 59 Rc was more than twice as tough as 440C at 59 Rc. ELMAX at 61 Rc was 50% tougher than 440C at 59 Rc. This was one test under lab conditions, but it suggests the following:

Slicing knife that will not be abused- 62 Rc
Everyday use 61 Rc
Maximum toughness 59 Rc
 
Based on your "light use" answer I would say 154. Great steel, not overly expensive and it sharpens up well.
 
My uncle works for Kershaw knives. There is NO El Max. It is just their new nickname for S30V stonewashed blades so they can gouge people by re-selling higher-end Kershaw knives like the Blur but with a slightly different newer design. Knife companies like Kershaw use these fancy names and fake names to trick new buyers into spending more money for the same old crap re-packaged.

If you don't believe me go Ebay right now and buy a kershaw Blur with S30V steel. You'll pay around 70 bucks. There is NOTHING you can't do with that knife that you can with a Zero Tolerance dupulicate that costs double the price but that uses trendy terms like "El Max" and other fancy terms.
 
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