S35vn vs 1095

[EngrSorenson]

1095 is tougher and easier to sharpen, S35VN has the advantage at everything else.

Depends on the heat treat. If both were hardened to around 60-61rc then S35VN would be slightly tougher according to the toughness chart at KnifeSteelNerds.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen 1095 hardened to 60-61 rc, and I’m guessing the reason is it gets too brittle. I know the “hammer test” GEC refers to in their packaging is an old school evaluation of the heat treat, where a poor heat treat results in a blade that snaps as opposed to yielding.

I am no expert- but again I’ll guess there’s probably an optimal range for every steel based on its properties, and it seems like S35VN can put up with the higher hardness.

I wonder what the RC of a martensite 1095 is?

 

[DeadboxHero]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen 1095 hardened to 60-61 rc, and I’m guessing the reason is it gets too brittle. I know the “hammer test” GEC refers to in their packaging is an old school evaluation of the heat treat, where a poor heat treat results in a blade that snaps as opposed to yielding.

I am no expert- but again I’ll guess there’s probably an optimal range for every steel based on its properties, and it seems like S35VN can put up with the higher hardness.

I wonder what the RC of a martensite 1095 is?

Cementite (iron carbide) (Fe³C) ~70HRC

 

[EngrSorenson]

Thanks @DeadboxHero, that at least gives the ceiling. I wish I’d paid better attention in my materials engineering course, but then again it was taught by a 95 year old Greek-American who insisted stainless steel cutlery was “crap” at holding an edge.

Personal experience indicates 1095 is better than solid (not laminated) Sandvik. I’d put an appropriately heat treated 440C in at least the same ballpark as 1095 (+/-). I’m excited to see what kind of edge retention I get with S35VN, because to date I’ve never really felt 1095 to be lacking for my use, which is usually excessive whittling on a host of various hardwoods.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Wood doesn't wear the edge abrasively.
Blade grind, edge geometry and how the knife was sharpened are stronger factors and have to be ruled out first as to why something is doing better than something else. Afterwards, one can look at steel and HT.


Here is how these steels stack in a more abrasive cutting task cutting silica abrasive impregnated card stock in a controlled setting.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/

(Higher value on Y-axis = More edge retention)

Here is what the Carbides in the microstructure look like. Steels will have different volumes of Carbides that help with wear resistance and some carbide types are harder than others.

~3% volume Iron Carbide in the matrix (~70hrc)

~12% Chromium Carbide (K1,K2 ~73-79hrc)

Powdered Metallurgy
~10.5% Chromium Carbide (~79hrc), ~3.5% Vanadium Carbide ( ~84hrc)

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/26/new-micrographs-of-42-knife-steels/

I recommend giving Knifesteelnerds.com a good read to satiate the need for details on nerdy knife steel knowledge.

Here is another important feature to read more about

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/08/27/what-is-edge-stability/


@Larrin has done a tremendous amount of work on steel testing for knives.

Makes it more fun to geek out when you can see and learn what is going on in the steel.

Regardless of geeky stuff, Enjoy your new knife in S35VN

Thanks @DeadboxHero, that at least gives the ceiling. I wish I’d paid better attention in my materials engineering course, but then again it was taught by a 95 year old Greek-American who insisted stainless steel cutlery was “crap” at holding an edge.

Personal experience indicates 1095 is better than solid (not laminated) Sandvik. I’d put an appropriately heat treated 440C in at least the same ballpark as 1095 (+/-). I’m excited to see what kind of edge retention I get with S35VN, because to date I’ve never really felt 1095 to be lacking for my use, which is usually excessive whittling on a host of various hardwoods.

 

[EngrSorenson]

@DeadboxHero thats phenomenal. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. One interesting detail I picked up on was the Author was surprised by O1 being so much lower scoring than the (relatively) similar 1095. The author reasonably attributes this to be a result within the variability of the test. To my eye it’s about 50 mm out of 320 mm, which is roughly a 15.6% variation. Significant variation considering the similarity of results for so many steels, but probably reasonable for the test.

assuming these two points strike the 2 sigma boundary (unlikely but possible), we can safely say that any steel within 50 mm of another can be regarded an indistinguishable result. D2, CPM-154 and S35VN are within approximately 30 mm, which I think is very fascinating. We might conclude the edge retention of those 3 is essentially the same.

what I would love to see is a variability study!! That would tell use even more about the conclusions we can draw.

also, I’m surprised that wood isn’t abrasive. I would be hard pressed to think of another mode in which the knife losses it’s edge, barring blunting from impact.

 

[AntDog]

Cardboard.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Cardboard.

Hm? When I say mode, I mean the method of edge loss. Cutting cardboard is an abrasive wear. Beating the edge into an anvil is deformation (we can lump chipping in there, too). These represent the two modes I can think of. Cutting slivers of wood should be abrasive wear, because we know the edges of knives go dull during the task. Undoubtedly it’s impossible to prevent some deformation on the microscopic level, but if we were to consider the primary source of dulling while whittling (properly), I would be inclined to think it’s abrasive.

 

[EngrSorenson]

@DeadboxHero just realized you must be Shawn Houston... I tip my hat to your for your involvement in this great experiment you’ve referenced. Kudos!!

 

[Zeunerite]

Other types of wear would be metal fatigue just from the pressure on the apex cutting against anything, and galling or adhesive wear from the friction as you're carving through.
I recall watching some videos by Cliff Stamp showing how edge retention can be improved from sharpening by grinding off a bit more than usual to remove any fatigued material and also how excessive pressure on the stones could cause fatigue on the final edge.

 

[me2]

Most blunting is from edge deformation when carving/cutting wood. Some specific wood species are very abrasive though.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Other types of wear would be metal fatigue just from the pressure on the apex cutting against anything, and galling or adhesive wear from the friction as you're carving through.
...edge retention can be improved from sharpening by grinding off a bit more than usual to remove any fatigued material...

Well I learned another thing today. Galling is from actual adhesion of two materials and is not the same as abrasion. Is this actually a problem for knives in typical use? This is perhaps off topic, but I can’t resist.
... and as for fatigue, that makes sense to me, though I wish I didn’t know about it, because now I’ll obsess over that in my edge care . I typically strop to sharpen and only sharpen on “stones“ if the task is too big for the strop.

Most blunting is from edge deformation when carving/cutting wood. Some specific wood species are very abrasive though.

that jives with what I‘ve heard about teak and a few other varieties what contain minerals actually imbedded in the wood. So I guess I stand corrected in my theory!

Thanks everyone for the information- my new theory is that the primary mode of blunting changes depending on use, which could be impacted by the properties of the steel (as well as blade geometry, etc, etc).

I appreciated the linear regression in @Larrin ‘s article, which seemed to indicate that edge angle and hardness were the 4th and 5th (Respectively) highest contributors behind presence of some (presumably) carbides (honestly I don’t know what “M” means, yet). Edge retention has 68% of the influence per reduction in degree when compared to the highest influencing carbide.

 

[Larrin]

Edge angle had the biggest influence.

 

[tueller]

I am no steel expert but for my large camp or woods fixed blades, I prefer 1095 or similar carbon steel. Strong, easy to sharpen and I don’t mind putting on mineral oil occasionally. For my daily folder or small thin fixed blade, I prefer s35vn or a similar stainless super steel. Since I wear them daily they get more random work and less timely maintenance.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Part one of my review for S35VN. I received my ESEE 3 today and the factory sharpening job wasn’t bad. There was a slight wire edge in spots, so I decided to sharpen it by hand to roughly the factory angle.

I rounded off the shoulders of the V edge a little and was able to get a highly polished edge (minus a few stubborn factory scratches) in no time. I used DMT x-course and course stones, a two-sided DMT continuous stone in fine and x-fine, and finally a strop with Flexcut gold compound.

The sharpening was significantly easier than the Queen D2; this might have been largely due to a reprofiling of wandering, inconsistencies in the factory grinds. The ESEE edge was much more consistent, so I didn’t find myself making corrections to the bevel. I don’t think anyone should shy away from S35VN because of concerns regarding sharpening.

I’ll let you know how it works as I put it through the rounds. So far very happy and not experiencing regret in departing from my trusty 1095 (though I always think a knife in good ol’ 1095 has a coolness factor in its rugged utility).

 

[EngrSorenson]

Review part 2- I did a weekend long camping trip and used that ESEE 3 almost exclusively for all my fire building. I’ve battoned with it just to prove I could. I’ve used it in food prep and cutting the tops off of 10 pumpkins. All I’ve done is some light stropping. By now all my 1095 would have needed some attention, but in general I ignore the S35VN and it still performs. Even right now it’s sharp.

Part of the durability is in the edge geometry, for sure, but I can say that I believe S35VN to be an overall significantly better steel than 1095. My daily carry is still 1095. if I had to pick one knife for the rest of my life, given the choice of the two, it would probably have to be S35VN.

 

[Thomas Linton]

At least you are approaching the issue from a factual standpoint. Thank you.

Most of these debates might as well be over the best color for socks.

 

[brownshoe]

Review part 2- I did a weekend long camping trip and used that ESEE 3 almost exclusively for all my fire building. I’ve battoned with it just to prove I could. I’ve used it in food prep and cutting the tops off of 10 pumpkins. All I’ve done is some light stropping. By now all my 1095 would have needed some attention, but in general I ignore the S35VN and it still performs. Even right now it’s sharp.

Part of the durability is in the edge geometry, for sure, but I can say that I believe S35VN to be an overall significantly better steel than 1095. My daily carry is still 1095. if I had to pick one knife for the rest of my life, given the choice of the two, it would probably have to be S35VN.

Why EDC 1095 if you believe 35VN to be superior?

 

[EngrSorenson]

Why EDC 1095 if you believe 35VN to be superior?

For a lot of reasons, but the biggest reason is that my favorite GEC slip joints come in 1095.

I also believe that for average folks doing average everyday cutting tasks, 1095 is more than sufficient. 1095 makes good knives; with a little care and stropping all of my carbon steel blades are great. I’m astounded how much of a difference I perceive between the S35VN and 1095, but it’s like icing on a cake.

I do like how the 1095 develops a patina, but I don’t know if that’s worthy of discussion when only considering perceived performance.

 

[brownshoe]

For a lot of reasons, but the biggest reason is that my favorite GEC slip joints come in 1095.

I also believe that for average folks doing average everyday cutting tasks, 1095 is more than sufficient. 1095 makes good knives; with a little care and stropping all of my carbon steel blades are great. I’m astounded how much of a difference I perceive between the S35VN and 1095, but it’s like icing on a cake.

I do like how the 1095 develops a patina, but I don’t know if that’s worthy of discussion when only considering perceived performance.

For me 1095 is a poor choice for EDC 'cause I like shiny things and use my pocket knives in the kitchen. 1095 means a Flitz session after use. If one forgets to rinse after lemons and pickles it could be a pit OMG thus my carbon steel knives tend to inexpensive.