Have all of you knifenuts, knifemakers and "blademen" ever tought about the fact that one of your knives actually could be used to hurt inocent people. How does this affect you??
I Norway we are not allowed to carry guns.
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Sad knifeincident.
- Thread starter Snowman
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Have all of you knifenuts, knifemakers and "blademen" ever tought about the fact that one of your knives actually could be used to hurt inocent people. How does this affect you??
I Norway we are not allowed to carry guns.
This all goes back to how you want to look at the situation. In my eyes, the "nazi hooligan" caused the death of the child. The knife in question was an innocent bystander. I know that if I really wanted to inflict damage to someone, a gun, a knife, a chair, a pencil, and my car keys can all be used in a lethal manner if I choose to use them in such a way.
I think the problem is that "nazi hooligans" can run the streets, not that they have knives.
A knife is merely a tool. Any tool could have been used and they would have just classed the "nazi hooligan" a sick **** and left it at that. But because a knife was used, the knife is brought up as an issue. If he had used a hammer would you post on a construction board and ask if they intend to rethink their use of hammers because they could be used to hurt someone. I highly doubt it. They would have probably not even mentoined the hammer except in passing.
I look at a knife or a gun the same as a hammer or saw. If this hooligan decided to run over the other boy, should we ban cars?
If the hooligan were to be QUICKLY executed, that would do more for justice and society than all the other oppressive laws combined.
If the hooligan were to be QUICKLY executed, that would do more for justice and society than all the other oppressive laws combined.
Gollnick
Musical Director
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I used to work for a company that made hand-held computers for warehouse, factory, and retail automation. Being made for industrial environments, they were very well-built.
Like most American companies, we faced our share of law suits. One of the most creative ones came in the matter of the death of a worker at an automobile plant.
What happened? Did our product explode in his hand and cause his death? No.
Did the radio transmitter interfer with is pacemaker? No.
Did the paint on our computer poison him? No.
What then? Well, it seems that an argument between two workers got out of hand and the one beat the other to death using our computer as his weapon.
The family of the dead worker was suing us over the death. The court threw the case out immediately. The computer did not cause the death nor did the company that made the computer.
My point is that anything can be used in a way that it wasn't intended. The maker or seller of a product really can't be responsible if it is misused in a terrible way.
Some knives are obviously made as weapons. Their design and their marketing makes it hard to argue otherwise. But, even those manufacturers and makers will tell you that their products are intended as defensive weapons. There is a huge, indeed 180 degree, difference between offense and defense.
Here in America, in many cases, defense is legal and is generally considered morally/ethically acceptible.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
[This message has been edited by Gollnick (edited 02-05-2001).]
Like most American companies, we faced our share of law suits. One of the most creative ones came in the matter of the death of a worker at an automobile plant.
What happened? Did our product explode in his hand and cause his death? No.
Did the radio transmitter interfer with is pacemaker? No.
Did the paint on our computer poison him? No.
What then? Well, it seems that an argument between two workers got out of hand and the one beat the other to death using our computer as his weapon.
The family of the dead worker was suing us over the death. The court threw the case out immediately. The computer did not cause the death nor did the company that made the computer.
My point is that anything can be used in a way that it wasn't intended. The maker or seller of a product really can't be responsible if it is misused in a terrible way.
Some knives are obviously made as weapons. Their design and their marketing makes it hard to argue otherwise. But, even those manufacturers and makers will tell you that their products are intended as defensive weapons. There is a huge, indeed 180 degree, difference between offense and defense.
Here in America, in many cases, defense is legal and is generally considered morally/ethically acceptible.
------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
[This message has been edited by Gollnick (edited 02-05-2001).]
Westflorida
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I am currently majoring in Criminal justice in college, this is one of the issues we talk about in my classes. I personally believe it is not the weapon at fault, it is the individual who uses it to cause unlawful harm to another. I also believe there are to many criminals with weapons they should not have, unfortunately this is why I feel I also need to be armed.
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Have all of you knifenuts, knifemakers and "blademen" ever tought about the fact that one of your knives actually could be used to hurt inocent people.
IMHO this is too old, but anyways, given a desire to kill or hurt, one would/could use
practically anything. Last year when on knives.rec was this very same topic being discussed one brough an example, one drug junkee killed 5 others using a hammer, plaijn and simple. To get the money for his next dose. Now what, write another message to hammer manufacturers to make their hammers softer so it's impossible to do any harm with them? Prohibit hammers at all?
What about VCR's used as a murder weapon? Ask Philips, Sony, Panasonic etc... how do they feel about their VCR used that way, then disallow VCRs or have them bolted to the floor?
Or another thing, that all of the non-knife folks totally ignore, that more than 95% of knife crimes are committed with the kitchen knives, not with few hunderd dollar price handmades or even high end productoin knives. Simply because kitchen knives are the most available.
And finally since you addressed all knifenuts in general, have you ever thought that someone may steal your car or your knife or your spade after all and kill or hurt someone? Possible right? What in that case? Or you think the victim will be "not that dead" because the weapon used was something else than the knife?
Why knives?
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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator
[This message has been edited by Gator97 (edited 02-05-2001).]
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As has been mentioned it is not the knife that killed the boy, it is the person that used the knife. Anything can be used by a person that filled with hate, to kill someone.
I do not think that a maker of knives can concern himself with the fact that his, or her knives can be used to hurt or kill someone. Some may consider this a callous attitude, but it is something I believe in totally. Some people are determined that they will harm someone. If they do not use a gun, they will use a knife, if not a knife then a bat or anything else that can be used to kill. This is not the fault of the person who made the gun, knife or bat. It is the fault of the person who wields the weapon.
This is a subject that I feel very strongly about. What happened here is terrible, but it not the fault of the man who made the knife.
Keith Montgomery.
[This message has been edited by Keith Montgomery (edited 02-05-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Keith Montgomery (edited 02-05-2001).]
I do not think that a maker of knives can concern himself with the fact that his, or her knives can be used to hurt or kill someone. Some may consider this a callous attitude, but it is something I believe in totally. Some people are determined that they will harm someone. If they do not use a gun, they will use a knife, if not a knife then a bat or anything else that can be used to kill. This is not the fault of the person who made the gun, knife or bat. It is the fault of the person who wields the weapon.
This is a subject that I feel very strongly about. What happened here is terrible, but it not the fault of the man who made the knife.
Keith Montgomery.
[This message has been edited by Keith Montgomery (edited 02-05-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Keith Montgomery (edited 02-05-2001).]
Esav Benyamin
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Wow, Chuck, for a while I was arguing with people that my laptop would make a weapon as dangerous as my knives...
It is hard to understand how people can believe that crooks will stop hurting others when we take all the guns and knives away.
And another example of a good weapon. I've heard of a guy that smashed somebody with a toilet seat crushing poor victim's skull (that's for real, I knew the father of the guy that did it - his son turned out to be a really bad apple).
So how does it make me feel when a nazi kills somebody with a knife? It makes me feel that the nazi should get a chair ... and I don't care what he used to kill.
Kris
Esav Benyamin
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In defense of the Norwegians, whom this troll does not represent well, they held a massive rally deploring what was done, and dedicating their efforts to marginalizing the racists and supporting the people endangered by them. By the way, the victim had a Norwegian parent, and a Norwegian name. He wasn't a particularly alien person there. I get the impression that the creep who killed him would have gone after anyone if a slightly more obvious victim weren't available.
Of course, if that victim were a trained and armed knifefighter himself ...
Of course, if that victim were a trained and armed knifefighter himself ...
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As a black person, I am very sensitive to the issue of hate crimes, and I find the case of this young boys murder very tragic. Like others here I say that the criminal who committed the act would have used anything that he could get his hand on whether it was legal to possess or not. The problem is a not a knife that could be used just as easily for cutting fruit or whittling, the problem is a racist criminal. Yesterday I heard on the news that a suspected terrorist in New York stabbed a prison gaurd in the eye with a sharpened comb so hard that the comb pierced the guard's brain. I don't think anyone will feel guilty about carrying a comb or a brush. By the way, the court reacted intelligently by requiring the suspect to attend his trial in shackles since he is cleasrly violent. Restraining crooks makes a lot more sense than banning knives.
your all right. i live in seattle and last year some nut wigged out on the freeway and ran over a motorcyclist severing his leg. then he jumped out of the car and ran into my neighborhood where he found two old ladies gardening and beat them to death with a shovel. then he broke into a house and holed up there with the homeowners firearms for two hours before one of the sheriffs snipers got him. tally it up and you have 0 for guns (goodguys) 1 for cars and 2 for gardening tools, does this mean we start picketing the home depot?
Maybe if you could have Guns in norway the guily party would be the dead one...
by the way and I may be wrong... I think this was posted before... I am not sure if it was here but I would agree on the "troll alert"
well... off to GM's site to say how sad I feel that one of there cars was used to run someone over.... Makes me want to walk....but then again I am big and might trip and fall on someone and hurt them... I better just sit here...
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If You Abide in Him then,"All His Promises are YES and AMEN"
well... off to GM's site to say how sad I feel that one of there cars was used to run someone over.... Makes me want to walk....but then again I am big and might trip and fall on someone and hurt them... I better just sit here...
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If You Abide in Him then,"All His Promises are YES and AMEN"
Jedi Knife
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Snowman,
Here in the USA we've experienced several sad knife incidents as well. This is one where a black man attacked and killed a young white child in a contemptible display of hatred:
UNKNOWN KEVIN SHIFFLET KILLER
Murder
Age:
20 - 30 (D.O.B. Unknown)
Sex:
Male
Race:
Black
Height:
5'7" - 5'10"
Weight:
150 - 170 lbs
Eye Color:
Brown
Hair Color:
Black
Scars:
Unknown
Tattoos:
Unknown
Alexandria Police department is looking for a suspect that was involved in a
homicide that occurred on April 19, 2000. Police say, Kevin Shifflett was stabbed to
death, while playing with his siblings in his relatives front yard. The suspect walked
up to Shifflett and stabbed him repeatedly. Police say, the 82-year-old relative and a
51-year-old neighbor tried to stop the suspect, but he turned the knife on them then
fled calmly on foot. Investigators pronounced Shifflett dead at the scene. Cops say
that the suspect may have taken a yellow cab from the crime scene
As a white person, I find hate crimes committed against white people to be very tragic, especially when these incidents don't receive national attention.
Unfortunately, the contolled media here in the United States doesn't feel that the death of a white child at the hands of a black killer is worthy of national coverage. There is still only a small amount of information available regarding this hateful incident.
JK
[This message has been edited by Jedi Knife (edited 02-06-2001).]
Here in the USA we've experienced several sad knife incidents as well. This is one where a black man attacked and killed a young white child in a contemptible display of hatred:
UNKNOWN KEVIN SHIFFLET KILLER
Murder
Age:
20 - 30 (D.O.B. Unknown)
Sex:
Male
Race:
Black
Height:
5'7" - 5'10"
Weight:
150 - 170 lbs
Eye Color:
Brown
Hair Color:
Black
Scars:
Unknown
Tattoos:
Unknown
Alexandria Police department is looking for a suspect that was involved in a
homicide that occurred on April 19, 2000. Police say, Kevin Shifflett was stabbed to
death, while playing with his siblings in his relatives front yard. The suspect walked
up to Shifflett and stabbed him repeatedly. Police say, the 82-year-old relative and a
51-year-old neighbor tried to stop the suspect, but he turned the knife on them then
fled calmly on foot. Investigators pronounced Shifflett dead at the scene. Cops say
that the suspect may have taken a yellow cab from the crime scene
As a white person, I find hate crimes committed against white people to be very tragic, especially when these incidents don't receive national attention.
Unfortunately, the contolled media here in the United States doesn't feel that the death of a white child at the hands of a black killer is worthy of national coverage. There is still only a small amount of information available regarding this hateful incident.
JK
[This message has been edited by Jedi Knife (edited 02-06-2001).]
Hello,
I find it interesting that this post has been labelled a troll. Most posts on this forum can be labelled as such (ie - which steel is best, what folder should I buy, etc.). While someone experienced with knives will know the answers, this stuff is all new to a novice and may indeed be a legitimate inquiry (although they should have used the search function or even a search engine to do some research themselves).
A legitimate question was posed by this post, one that I was interested in hearing an answer to, and no one has posted a response. Regardless of right or wrong, or who or what is responsible for the incident, if a knife maker pours his heart and soul into a blade and it is used in a wrongful death, how do they feel? Not how *should* they feel, or how do *you* think they should feel, but how do they themselves feel?
Knives are ambiguous since thay can be a tool, a defensive weapon, or an offensive weaopn. Being sharp and pointy they are also inherently dangerous regardless of how they are deployed so care must always be exercised. As a desk jockey the things I produce on the job do not have any of these characteristics so I really can't put myself in the position of a maker to conjecture how they would feel in the situation in question.
Later,
MBS
I find it interesting that this post has been labelled a troll. Most posts on this forum can be labelled as such (ie - which steel is best, what folder should I buy, etc.). While someone experienced with knives will know the answers, this stuff is all new to a novice and may indeed be a legitimate inquiry (although they should have used the search function or even a search engine to do some research themselves).
A legitimate question was posed by this post, one that I was interested in hearing an answer to, and no one has posted a response. Regardless of right or wrong, or who or what is responsible for the incident, if a knife maker pours his heart and soul into a blade and it is used in a wrongful death, how do they feel? Not how *should* they feel, or how do *you* think they should feel, but how do they themselves feel?
Knives are ambiguous since thay can be a tool, a defensive weapon, or an offensive weaopn. Being sharp and pointy they are also inherently dangerous regardless of how they are deployed so care must always be exercised. As a desk jockey the things I produce on the job do not have any of these characteristics so I really can't put myself in the position of a maker to conjecture how they would feel in the situation in question.
Later,
MBS
- Joined
- Aug 8, 1999
- Messages
- 5,094
Jedi Knife, besides the fact that the suspect is black, what evidence do you have that the crime was motivated by hate? Did the suspect say something, is he known to be active in extremist groups? The person might simply be deranged. I have heard the argument before that black on white murders are under reported. I think there is a simple reason for this: most black on white crimes have an economic component, i.e. they are connected to a robbery, burglary, drug deal etc. I think one will find relatively few black on white homicides where the perpetrator simply decided to kill a white person solely based on skin color. In those cases where it does happen, I like any other decent human being condemn that sort of evil behavior , and I hope that person is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Sorry for getting off of the topic.
I think the idea of "hate crimes" are as ludicrous as "road rage" - popularized by the media here in the US. Think about it - how many murders are committed out of love for their fellow man? By definition, murder is an extension of hate. That should be obvious.
I still think that swift and sure punishment is the best prevention. If it doesn't happen, then the society involved has bigger problems then one murder - it becomes an indicator of other things.
To answer the question, no, not only do I NOT feel badly, I am going to purchase more knives. I am not responsible for what others do, only myself. I believe that all good people should stand up for what is right, no question about it, but that does NOT imply responsibility.
I find it interesting that snowman hasn't posted any more. I thought that liberal places such as Norway were supposed to be "tolerant". Or is Norway like the US, where tolerance only has to go in one direction, according to the media?
I still think that swift and sure punishment is the best prevention. If it doesn't happen, then the society involved has bigger problems then one murder - it becomes an indicator of other things.
To answer the question, no, not only do I NOT feel badly, I am going to purchase more knives. I am not responsible for what others do, only myself. I believe that all good people should stand up for what is right, no question about it, but that does NOT imply responsibility.
I find it interesting that snowman hasn't posted any more. I thought that liberal places such as Norway were supposed to be "tolerant". Or is Norway like the US, where tolerance only has to go in one direction, according to the media?