Sad knifeincident.

Troll or not, not a bad topic to discuss.

One case I think of was the recent "Postal" type attack of the Day Trader who'd lost his family's money in the Day Trading Market. You remember, the fellow who took a couple of pistols into the brokerage firm and shot a few people. He killed his family prior to that at his home with a ball peen hammer. But the first thing the media jumped on was the guns. For goodness sake the man killed his own family, the ones he assumedly loved, with a HAMMER! But the evil gun was the cause of that crime, in the eyes of the media.

McVeigh did his damage with fertilizer.

It is definitely not the weapon.

And as far as hate crimes go, that is the saddest statement towards humankind I can imagine, save maybe some crimes towards children. Freedom is one thing, freedom to openly hate is quite different. I do not believe in the freedom to hate. I am ashamed to be classified as "white". I am human. Hate-mongers are not human. THEY are the animals that they make others out to be.

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Brandon
 
I don't think that the idea of hate crimes is silly. In fact, they can serve a very conservative purpose in that they can make more murderers eligible for execution. As you all surely know, simple murder does not qualify one for execution; the crime has to be "aggravated". For instance, if the murder was committed as part of another crime like a robbery, rape, or ongoing domestic abuse, the perpetrator can be sentenced to death. Simply killing somebody does not qualify for execution. That is why the criminals who drug the black man in Texas had to found guilty of kidnapping in order to be sentenced to death. If "hate" is allowed as an aggravating factor in the sense that such a person is guilty essentially conspiring to act out his beliefs, then this means that more trouble makers can be more effectively punished.
 
Snowman had posted a sad incident that happened in his country. It is a shame that such evil still happens in this world.
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum64/HTML/002042.html

In USA we just had a disturbing crime happen also. Springfield, MA.

A few days ago two 11 year old boys (fifth graders) had an argument at a movie theater. They saw some slasher movie called Valentine http://valentinemovie.warnerbros.com/#

So, a little school yard type fight occurred. One kid pulled a knife and stabbed the boy in the chest killing him. What is wrong with this picture? When I was that age we beat each other up and were friends again the next week.

 
Sorry Anthony, I don't see murder as simple. I am not a lawyer, but in my mind, the word murder implies pre-meditation, and the word manslaughter implies passion/spur-of-the-moment/stupidity, etc.

If "simple" murder isn't grounds for execution, then those laws need to be changed. If someone acts out beliefs (i.e., premeditation), then in my opinion, the death penalty is a viable option. I don't see where the victim's personal circumstances have anything to do with it. Dead is dead.

This is way off topic, but what the heck. We have 3 branches of govt. in the US, Executive, Legislative, and Judicial. It's pretty much common knowledge that the Judicial branch is seriously overworked. So let's fix it! It can't be fixed by passing more laws through the Legislative branch, that just clogs the system up even more.

If my car doesn't start, I don't check the air in my tires.

Sorry for the diatribe.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">A legitimate question was posed by this post, one that I was interested in hearing an answer to, and no one has posted a response.</font>
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I disagree. While the topic has expanded a bit and even developed a few subthreads, there has been considerable on-topic response


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">if a knife maker pours his heart and soul into a blade and it is used in a wrongful death, how do they feel? Not how
*should* they feel, or how do *you* think they should feel, but how do they themselves feel?</font>
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I'm not a knife maker, but as an engineer, I have, in the past, designed products that were used to commit murders. The aforementioned hand-held computer was just one example.

It's an example I like to use because of we got sued over it. This first demonstrates the degree to which people in this country misplace responsibility for actions. And, second, it makes the case a very good example because the case did go to court. The court quickly decided that the computer did not cause the death and that the computer's manufacturer is not responsible for the death.

So, how do I feel when something I designed gets misused in such a criminal way? Well, I'm sorry that a man was killed. I know what it is like to loose someone you love and so I feel great sympathy for the family.

But, do I feel responsible? No. Do I regret being involved in the design of that computer? No.

And I don't think the maker of the knife used in the incident in question should either.


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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
I often feel saddened and outraged at the evil that mankind heaps upon each other.
I will never feel guilty about it though. MY
knives, guns, and other assorted tools will never be used by ME to harm an inocent person. I even insure that my items of this nature are locked up in a gun safe when I am not home to insure that no one else uses them this way either.
You are right, this a sad incident, but not one that we as knife owners should feel guilty about.. We did not cause this to happen. I would feel guilt, if I saw something like this happen and did nothing to try to stop it!
 
First I would like to say that I love knives. I have been a collector for about 15 years. I agree with a lot of the arguments being made in this post. I have actually used these arguments myself a lot of times. Still I get very angry and sad when I hear about knives being used as weapons to hurt or kill other people. I get sad because these "accidents" are tragic. I get angry because these accidents makes my hobby look bad
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So, why did I ask my question?

First I wanted to see if you realy cared. Yes you did.
Second I wanted you to think about the dilema: Knives can be used to hurt other people.

The next question I want to ask you is:

WHAT CAN WE DO TO PREVENT KNIVES FROM BEING USED AS LETHAL WEAPONS? HOW CAN WE SHOW PEOPLE THAT KNIVES ARE TOOLS AND NOT WEAPONS?

These questions are important because if knives continues to be used in violent situations we will one day be in a community where knives are banned! In Norway we are allready looking at that situation. We are not allowed to carry knives in public anymore. This is not right
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Bad things happen to good people. Bad people do exist. It`s a fact of life. There is no way that government, police, citizens or my mom can protect everyone and insure that bad things or injustice never happen. There ARE laws in place to protect the public. They need to be ENFORCED. Norway ought to catch and hang the hooligan as an example to the rest of the thugs who`d trample on the rights of others.
 
Just about any item can be used as a weapon.

It is foolish and wrongheaded to blame an inanimate object for the misdeeds of a person.
 
Snowman said:

"Have all of you knifenuts, knifemakers and "blademen" ever tought about the fact that one of your knives actually could be used to hurt inocent people. How does this affect you??"

It does not bother me, even though I am sure that some of the knives I own have been used to kill people in the past, since many of my knives are retired military knives that have been in circulation for 150-200 years.

I can choose to be disgusted with this, but I rather accepted knives as artifacts of their time. The instrument itself is neither good nor bad, but if it serves of evidence of what some of us have done, or are capable of doing, then it continues to serve a useful purpose.

The converse of your arguement can be perhaps a little more enlightening. Technology has never been successful at keeping us from killing each other. There was once a time when people generally felt that inventions such as the longbow, gunpowder, machinegun, and ultimately the H-bomb would make the consequences of conflict so horrible that war would end. It never turned out that way. People remain people irrespective of the technology. Those prone to violence will continue to attack the weak; and, whether they use bombs, guns, knives, or rocks, the outcome will be the same.



 
My last post sounded a little more pessimistic than I felt. Good behavior can be encouraged, but you have to focus on controlling the people instead of the gaget.

There are many good people here and sometimes our community does react... well like Tom did a couple of years ago...
(Tom Maringer was one of our foremost sword makers... he is a relevant thread on why he gave it up)

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum59/HTML/000137.html



[This message has been edited by not2sharp (edited 02-06-2001).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Jedi Knife, besides the fact that the suspect is black, what evidence
do you have that the crime was motivated by hate? Did the suspect
say something, is he known to be active in extremist groups?</font>
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I'm quite sure there was little investigation into the political groups the killer belonged to. I'd be willing to bet, however, that if the roles were reversed, with the killer being white and victim black, there would be a thorough investigation to determine if this was a hate crime. This was indeed a hate crime, regardless.

Here's a quote from The Washington Post 10-5-00:
Although prosecutors do not have to prove a motive, police have not been able to answer one of the most vexing questions in a case that has gripped the Washington region: Why would a stranger slash and stab a child at play?
In a note found in his hotel room two nights before the stabbing, Murphy, in
misspelled language, referred to killing "them racist white kids,"...


This does seem to mimic the rhetoric of a lot of extremist groups, such as Nation of Islam and NAACP, with their generalizations of most white people being "racist", and "institutional racism". I can only reiterate what I said previously, and that is if this crime had been given the same national attention as the murder of the Texas hitch-hiker, then perhaps there could have been a more thorough investigation of this hateful crime.

JK

 
If you had evidence from the news report that indicated that the killing was racially inspired, you should have provided it when you first made your post and I would not have asked you the question. I will say, however, the NAACP is an integrated organization and has always been one. In fact, in its early days, it presidents were white. The entire history of the NAACP has also been non-violent. In fact, it's original strategy to combat segregation was solely based on legal arguments in the courts. In the 1950's and 1960's, many NAACP leaders even considered the demonstrations of Dr. King (SCLC) too aggressive all they were explicitly non-violent. I'm not trying to change your politics Jedi knife, I just want you to be accurate when you make statements about organizations.
 
Guys, we have got to teach our kids to handle, use, and care for knives PROPERLY.

I work with Boy Scouts and we have a knife, axe and saw training program called "Totin' Chip". Each boy must be taught, and then explain and demonstrate the proper handling, use, and care of knives, axes and saws. When they complete the program, they are awarded a Totin' Chip card attesting to the fact that they passed the training and promise to handle, use, and care for knives, axes, and saws properly and they are then given the PRIVILEDGE of carrying and using knives at Scouting activities. That priviledge can be revoked. Some Scouting units cut a corner off the card when a violation is seen. When all four corners are cut off, the Scout must re-take the training again. Personally, I don't cut corners on cards - I take the card on the first offense, tear it up right in front of the Scout and tell him to put his knife away and go be re-retrained. I also teach knife handling, use, and care to Girl Scouts.

We have got to teach kids better. I have given knives to kids - after I taught then how to handle, use and care for them. And I told each one of them that if I ever saw or heard that they violated those rules they had to give the knife back.

One of my most prized possessions is my first knife. It is just a cheap Sabre brand utility Scout style pocketknife, but to me it is priceless. I got it after I earned my Totin' Chip rights.

In my opinion, all men should have a knife and know how to handle, use and care for it and all boys should be taught how.

I saw a saying somewhere - on here I think:
"Draw it not without reason; sheath it not without honor" good words.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Snowman:
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I am from Norway. Last week a very sad knifeincident happened in Oslo in the south of Norway. A black boy was stabbed to death by a nazi hooligan. The newspaper wrote that the hooligan sat on the boy's chest while sabbing him several times. This incident made me very sad.

Have all of you knifenuts, knifemakers and "blademen" ever tought about the fact that one of your knives actually could be used to hurt inocent people. How does this affect you??

I Norway we are not allowed to carry guns.

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</font>
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Though I am considered a "kid" at 16. I find it sad to see other teens use knives irresponsibly, who give the rest of us a bad rep. I own and carry balisongs all the time aside from school and Church. I may like knives but I don't like violence. My dad taught me that it is never cool or funny to go out of your way to hurt anything. And for those neo-nazi's, I can't understand why anyone would harm a total stranger over race, religion, or ethnic background.

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Things may never get better, but they can always get worse.
 
Posts like this sometimes make me feel sad. I feel sad that the knife was blamed for the harm. In the UK a small boy is stabbed to death. Two things make this a big story, one is that a knife is involved.Two is that he was black and an imagrant. Firstly they say now it was a bit of broken glass or a kitchen paring knife. Secondly it was black on black racism by children.

What is the world comming to? Why cannot the powers that be leave honest law abiding people alone and let us protect ourselfs? Give me a gun and I will protect my family or property. Make the Police protect public buildings and the roads etc. A persons home aught to be a BG free zone!

It was not the knife that killed it was the Nazi scum that did it. If not a knife, a stone, if not a stone a bone if not a...

Where do we draw the line? Ban thugs and killers NOT knives. A gun is NOT a tool for day to day use. A knife IS!

Have a good one!

W.A.

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"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 02-06-2001).]
 
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