Safety First: Moped, Scooter, or Motorcycle?

[Noctis3880]

ATGATT is about wearing everything whenever you ride. Not about wearing it when you get off the bike.

True, but what's to stop me from hanging that jacket off my chair like I do with my raincoat? The pants more or less look like regular pants with a slightly different looking material.

The specifics of what gear or how the crash went down i never found out. He was wearing his kit for what it is worth and I assume he had spine protection. Low speed, not really his fault. Just no extra bubble to protect him like with a car.

Unless it's a good brand like Aerostich or Joe Rocket, comprehensive back protection(right down to the tailbone) wouldn't be guaranteed. Also, unless he's dead serious about his gear, the "standard" kit is just a leather jacket, riding gloves, and jeans, typically without armor of any sort.

There are also stories on both sides of this. One shared with me would be how habits differ between vehicles in which one guy was killed in his car from a collision with a large semi on the interstate. Had he been on his bike(which he sold off at the insistence of his wife), he would have stayed the hell off the interstate. It's also hard to talk/text on the phone on a motorcycle(unless you really go out of your way to put a bluetooth device into your helmet).

Not really trying to be confrontational, but every time I hear one of these "I know a guy who got messed up riding on his bike" stories, I typically find the most critical details to be very lacking.

It's also strange that a low-speed spill(I'm thinking 20-25) not involving another vehicle could damage you to that extent unless you just happened to land on a sharp rock directly on your spine. Faultless does not necessarily equate to "I had no control over it".

Certainly, my current literature(Proficient Motorcycling) states that motorcyclists can get involved in accidents where they genuinely think it was not their fault, but they had control over and could have avoided with the right habits(including proper throttle/brake techniques during a turn that could prevent a slide out).

 

[sideways]

The reason the details are lacking is because this is an old incident and I didn't interrogate him about his gear choices and mistakes leading up to the crash. People are fragile.

Don't forget either that it is human nature to think everyone else is dumb and careless. It is just part of our egocentric programming. There are plenty of careful smart people out there getting into accidents. Maybe because of the careless dumb people they share the roads with.

 

[Noctis3880]

The reason the details are lacking is because this is an old incident and I didn't interrogate him about his gear choices and mistakes leading up to the crash. People are fragile.

And neither should you rub salt on his wounds(particularly one that will haunt him for life). But as I said, there are always annoying little details that complicate the argument. People are both fragile and ridiculously tenacious at the same time(saw a video of a Dutch women getting stabbed for a full minute by her husband with a long Chef knife, she walked away from that one, literally).

Don't forget either that it is human nature to think everyone else is dumb and careless. It is just part of our egocentric programming. There are plenty of careful smart people out there getting into accidents. Maybe because of the careless dumb people they share the roads with.

Yes, and it is impossible to prevent every possible catastrophe in life, and even in a Hummer there will be a bigger vehicle that can crash into it and crush it like a tin can.

But as I said, it's all about mitigating the risks to the point where it's acceptable.


In light of all this, I'm curious again about my earlier question(an open question):
If you had a child(boy or girl), and they wanted to ride a motorcycle, would you stop them and how long would it go on for(18? 21? 26?)?

The reason I ask this is because of the fundamental impossibility of protecting someone from themselves. What if they move out? What if they're 50, you died of old age(or some other natural cause), and they decided that now is the time to ride(actually happened to some people)?

I frankly would like to ask my own mother about this. Does she plan on cutting off my limbs and imprisoning me inside the house? Will she kill me before she expires? Will she entrust my brother with the task of following me around for life and making sure I'm protected for my own good because apparently I'm a dumb animal that doesn't know what's good for me?

Does anyone seriously think it would be morally right to do that?

 

[Bob6794]

Disclaimer:
I don't ride motorcycles, moped, scooters, closest I have coming to doing that is looking into it extensively a few years ago and deciding a car was an all around better choice. Been driving a car solely and nothing else.

From driving a car for awhile I can tell you from my perspective a lot of times I won't hear or notice a motorcycle lane splitting and trying to pass me on the freeway till it's pretty much 50ft away unless it has a light on or loud exhaust in traffic unless I look for a small vehicle creeping up specifically instead of just checking to make sure it's clear. To be blunt motorcycles are practically invisible in mirrors with how narrow they are at a distance or blend into other cars and traffic.

I may look for motorcycles specifically when changing lanes as their hard to spot and require more than a passing glance sometimes but a lot of people don't. Motorcycles can creep up on you very fast and very quietly, though what I have found is if you have your light on and a decently loud exhaust other vehicles have more advance warning but not by much. The best way I heard someone phrase what riding a motorcycle is like is this, imagine your predator with your invisible cloak on and they can't see you but they are all still trying to kill you somehow. And as a car driver I think that's spot on as I have to look dang hard for a motorcycle when changing lanes to make sure I don't crash into one with how sneaky they are, because even a smart car can be spotted by a quick glance but a guy on a motorcycle is barely noticeable at a distance. That presents a huge problem if their riding faster than traffic as it may appear to be clear to change lanes but if their speeding they may wind up in the cars backseat if they don't hit the breaks in time, I've seen that almost happen in front of me a few times on the freeway.

Keep that in mind when your riding. And also keep in mind that your riding your motorcycle or whatever your going to get to college where most of the students are quite young and don't have a lot of driving experience so they probably won't be looking for you. Expect them to do stupid stuff, drive recklessly, etc. I've seen plenty of near misses of people on motorcycles whether it being the motorcycle, driver, or both their faults. If your new to driving/riding may I suggest a car, that protective bubble your in will save your butt if you make a mistake or don't catch someone else making a mistake and crashing into you. There is a LOT of experience you gain in the first few years your driving and you learn how to spot bad situations before they happen sometimes if your paying attention not to mention how to avoid bad situation and drive safely.

If this is your sole mode of transportation as a fellow college student may I recommend a car instead. Motorcycles are nice I will admit but they lack a lot of versatility. I can pretty much guarantee you it's going to be a PITA on some days when you need to bring more stuff to class or whatever your destination is that your little motorcycle can fit. Even if you think a briefcase or backpack can get the job done now with what you mention you will be carrying I can tell you that is under ideal conditions and I've had to pretty much carry triple that some semesters in terms of just books and I am not including equipment and lunch I had to bring too. When the weather is bad it's going to suck for you. In terms of dating unless she has riding gear too, your probably taking her car. Hanging out with friends, no one is car pooling with you and you have to take your motorcycle or catch a ride with them. If you decide to drink with your friends and that wasn't planned in advance your either crashing on their couch or something along those lines as your bikes not leaving, it's not like you can toss a designated driver your keys to drive you back home or a friends place to sleep it off. Even if they have riding gear and a motorcycle license being drunk on the back of a motorcycle isn't a very good idea.

Now as someone who is trying to get into the medical field as a career please get the best riding gear you can and don't get cheap. Medical bills are expensive, crashing can be stupidly painful and more so if you decide to save a few bucks. Not all injuries heal, rehab sucks, and if something does happen and you wind up being in the hospital keep in mind nurses are people too. So even if your in pain and agitated try not to take it out on them, try to be nice and if you want joke around with them.They will provide care to you either way (as long as your not a danger to them), but if you get on their good side and become one of their favorite patients they be happier to check in on you and see how you are doing.

Beyond that enjoy your motorcycle, or whatever other vehicle you decide to get.

EDITED IN:
Had the editior open for over an hour so there were some posts I didn't see.

If I had a kid and they still lived in my house they wouldn't be allowed to ride a motorcycle till they have been driving a car for awhile and got some good driving experience and now how to spot danger and avoid it. Not everything can be taught in that regard and some of it has to be learned by experience. And after they got pass the stupid wild & reckless phase everyone goes through. So realistically 20+ years old.

And yes a low speed crash can easily result in serious injury, back protection and all the riding gear only helps to prevent it and doesn't stop it. There is a lot of factors besides what you fall on, it's how you fall, how your body twists and moves, what you hit, how much momentum you have, etc. As someone who studies martial arts and has some medical training I can tell you the human body is very frail, it takes far less force to break a bone than you think. And far less if you manipulate it just right. Even in car crashes you body moves a significant amount and bounces all over the place, take a look at crash test dummies in slow mo in car crashes it's quite insane how much they move if you've never seen it before. A motorcycle is 1000x worse as you have nothing restraining you, no seatbelt, no airbags, no crumble zones, etc. You pretty much have glorified hockey pads on you on a good day to help protect you.

I've had teachers tell me when they first started their job they came up to a motorcycle accident and they were told "go grab me his food" as they already had the guy in the ambulance and he returned with the boot with the foot still in it, it took awhile for it to click in his head what he was holding. Accidents can happen and they can be quite bad on a motorcycle, you are a lot more exposed and have less protection over a car. Just because it's low speed doesn't mean it can't be serious or life threatening.

Oh and whether or not it's morally right to break someones legs to keep them from riding a motorcycle or something stupid isn't the question you need to be asking yourself. It's "Do I know anyone who will do this to me to prevent me from riding a motorcycle?" that you should be asking.

 

[Noctis3880]

Disclaimer:
I don't ride motorcycles, moped, scooters, closest I have coming to doing that is looking into it extensively a few years ago and deciding a car was an all around better choice. Been driving a car solely and nothing else.

From driving a car for awhile I can tell you from my perspective a lot of times I won't hear or notice a motorcycle lane splitting and trying to pass me on the freeway till it's pretty much 50ft away unless it has a light on or loud exhaust in traffic unless I look for a small vehicle creeping up specifically instead of just checking to make sure it's clear. To be blunt motorcycles are practically invisible in mirrors with how narrow they are at a distance or blend into other cars and traffic.

There are actually specific blind spots for cars where you can't see a motorcycle compared to a car, again because they're smaller. You also misjudge how close or far away they are because of that as well. Thus, it's recommended to move your motorcycle out of such blind spots whenever possible.

I think Hawaii drivers are a bit more attentive given that:
1) Mopeds/Scooters ARE the preferred way to get around the small island. They're also more notorious for creeping up on drivers, having a more quiet engine.
2) 1/10 moped/scooter riders actually wear a helmet(speaking as a driver, I've noticed this particularly often).

I may look for motorcycles specifically when changing lanes as their hard to spot and require more than a passing glance sometimes but a lot of people don't. Motorcycles can creep up on you very fast and very quietly, though what I have found is if you have your light on and a decently loud exhaust other vehicles have more advance warning but not by much. The best way I heard someone phrase what riding a motorcycle is like is this, imagine your predator with your invisible cloak on and they can't see you but they are all still trying to kill you somehow. And as a car driver I think that's spot on as I have to look dang hard for a motorcycle when changing lanes to make sure I don't crash into one with how sneaky they are, because even a smart car can be spotted by a quick glance but a guy on a motorcycle is barely noticeable at a distance. That presents a huge problem if their riding faster than traffic as it may appear to be clear to change lanes but if their speeding they may wind up in the cars backseat if they don't hit the breaks in time, I've seen that almost happen in front of me a few times on the freeway.

Particularly why I would prefer to stay off the freeway. But again, I'd be driving with the flow of traffic, maybe keeping more "reaction distance" than I would in a car.

Keep that in mind when your riding. And also keep in mind that your riding your motorcycle or whatever your going to get to college where most of the students are quite young and don't have a lot of driving experience so they probably won't be looking for you. Expect them to do stupid stuff, drive recklessly, etc. I've seen plenty of near misses of people on motorcycles whether it being the motorcycle, driver, or both their faults. If your new to driving/riding may I suggest a car, that protective bubble your in will save your butt if you make a mistake or don't catch someone else making a mistake and crashing into you. There is a LOT of experience you gain in the first few years your driving and you learn how to spot bad situations before they happen sometimes if your paying attention not to mention how to avoid bad situation and drive safely.

It's not the first time I've driven, but it HAS been a few years(about 3), since I did.

If this is your sole mode of transportation as a fellow college student may I recommend a car instead. Motorcycles are nice I will admit but they lack a lot of versatility. I can pretty much guarantee you it's going to be a PITA on some days when you need to bring more stuff to class or whatever your destination is that your little motorcycle can fit. Even if you think a briefcase or backpack can get the job done now with what you mention you will be carrying I can tell you that is under ideal conditions and I've had to pretty much carry triple that some semesters in terms of just books and I am not including equipment and lunch I had to bring too. When the weather is bad it's going to suck for you. In terms of dating unless she has riding gear too, your probably taking her car. Hanging out with friends, no one is car pooling with you and you have to take your motorcycle or catch a ride with them. If you decide to drink with your friends and that wasn't planned in advance your either crashing on their couch or something along those lines as your bikes not leaving, it's not like you can toss a designated driver your keys to drive you back home or a friends place to sleep it off. Even if they have riding gear and a motorcycle license being drunk on the back of a motorcycle isn't a very good idea.

Even when I was taking Welding classes, there wasn't all that much I couldn't separate out into 2 trips. The only exception I could possibly think of is if a presentation board is required for a major project, in which case, catching the bus for one or two days won't break my wallet.

I also don't drink, period. I evidently developed a taste aversion for alcohol during my 21st birthday when my brother decided I needed to celebrate at a club. It doesn't make me excessively drunk, but I typically make it through half a can of beer before I end up staring at my dinner.

Now as someone who is trying to get into the medical field as a career please get the best riding gear you can and don't get cheap. Medical bills are expensive, crashing can be stupidly painful and more so if you decide to save a few bucks. Not all injuries heal, rehab sucks, and if something does happen and you wind up being in the hospital keep in mind nurses are people too. So even if your in pain and agitated try not to take it out on them, try to be nice and if you want joke around with them.They will provide care to you either way (as long as your not a danger to them), but if you get on their good side and become one of their favorite patients they be happier to check in on you and see how you are doing.

I would hope $2,500 isn't considered cheap.

If I had a kid and they still lived in my house they wouldn't be allowed to ride a motorcycle till they have been driving a car for awhile and got some good driving experience and now how to spot danger and avoid it. Not everything can be taught in that regard and some of it has to be learned by experience. And after they got pass the stupid wild & reckless phase everyone goes through. So realistically 20+ years old.

Well technically, the brain is said to mature at age 25. Unless they're still freeloading off of you at that age, I'd be curious if you'd stop them even if you had no legal(or even moral) authority to do so.

And yes a low speed crash can easily result in serious injury, back protection and all the riding gear only helps to prevent it and doesn't stop it. There is a lot of factors besides what you fall on, it's how you fall, how your body twists and moves, what you hit, how much momentum you have, etc. As someone who studies martial arts and has some medical training I can tell you the human body is very frail, it takes far less force to break a bone than you think. And far less if you manipulate it just right. Even in car crashes you body moves a significant amount and bounces all over the place, take a look at crash test dummies in slow mo in car crashes it's quite insane how much they move if you've never seen it before. A motorcycle is 1000x worse as you have nothing restraining you, no seatbelt, no airbags, no crumble zones, etc. You pretty much have glorified hockey pads on you on a good day to help protect you.

I think it mostly depends on how and where you get hit. A dummy in a car will slam against the seatbelt at whatever speed you were going and be brought to a very abrupt halt with enough force to break your shoulder bone. A motorcyclist more often than not will be launched into the air in one fashion or another, and VERY rarely will it result in a direct vertical impact. Those "hockey pads" are meant to protect you from multiple impacts at an angle, typically on different parts of the body(you likely won't hit your right shoulder twice). I also think it depends on whether it's hard plastic armor(does not absorb impact) or shock absorbing soft armor.

I've had teachers tell me when they first started their job they came up to a motorcycle accident and they were told "go grab me his food" as they already had the guy in the ambulance and he returned with the boot with the foot still in it, it took awhile for it to click in his head what he was holding. Accidents can happen and they can be quite bad on a motorcycle, you are a lot more exposed and have less protection over a car. Just because it's low speed doesn't mean it can't be serious or life threatening.

Agreed. But as I said, even in a car you're not free from risks. What you can do is to manage the risks to a point where it's acceptable. And as I said before, if I told my family I was going to ride to the campus, on the road, on a bicycle, they would have no issues with it despite the fact that I'd be going 30-35 mph easily on the mile or so of downhill, with zero protection against road rash or impacts.

Oh and whether or not it's morally right to break someones legs to keep them from riding a motorcycle or something stupid isn't the question you need to be asking yourself. It's "Do I know anyone who will do this to me to prevent me from riding a motorcycle?" that you should be asking.

Even better question would be:
"Is my CRKT Hisshou/ESEE Junglas/Spyderco Schempp Rock/Ronin Ko-Katana longer than the Chinese Cleaver my mother likes to use to threaten to cut my hand off at the wrist as a child?":thumbup:

and

"Will I be in ATGATT full kevlar when that 'discussion' occurs?"

 

[Bob6794]

You have a pretty good understanding of everything from the looks of it with all the counters of my post . Sounds like your going to be one of the better motorcycle riders out there if you decide to pick on up which is sadly all too rare these days. Enjoy whatever vehicle you get, have fun and be safe :thumbup:.

Just a little side note I used the hockey pads and that sport as a reference since the impacts aren't as extreme and when I stopped playing most of us had hard plastic on the outside of the pads, spinal protection, etc. I am well away motorcycle pads are significantly better, but so are the impacts your encountering.

 

[Noctis3880]

Thanks.

Some did recommend a Yamaha V-Star 250 as an alternative(comfort was the stated reason, as well as being better overall). Anyone have any knowledge of that? The seat itself does look more comfortable and well rounded. But other than that, it seems almost identical to a Honda Rebel.

I did note in the specifications that it has more engine cc's, more front suspension travel, and slightly less gas economy and gas tank size(almost negligible). Though I'm not sure what the difference is between a V-twin and a twin parallel, outside of appearances.

Dealer selection makes it hard to go much further beyond that. I don't see a massive compelling reason to pick that over the Rebel. But then again, there isn't a compelling reason to pick the Rebel over the V-Star that I can see.

 

[Sid Post]

Some did recommend a Yamaha V-Star 250 as an alternative(comfort was the stated reason, as well as being better overall). Anyone have any knowledge of that? The seat itself does look more comfortable and well rounded. But other than that, it seems almost identical to a Honda Rebel.

The little V-Star is a V-Twin, not a parallel twin. This will generally make the motorcycle narrower between your legs which is better IMHO. The V-Star is also a more modern motorcycle versus the old school Honda Rebel. Your foot position is also a little more forward on the V-Star which a lot of people prefer. I wouldn't say the differences are significant but, they do favor the Yamaha.

I did note in the specifications that it has more engine cc's, more front suspension travel, and slightly less gas economy and gas tank size(almost negligible). Though I'm not sure what the difference is between a V-twin and a twin parallel, outside of appearances.

First of all, generally ignore the EPA spec'ed motorcycle MPG results. Real world MPG will be different based on rider style and the environment you ride in. Static EPA motorcycle figures really don't match real world results in most cases. They are good for a general reference but don't take into account how you really ride a motorcycle where you live. In my case, I beat EPA estimates by ~50% regularly on my dual-sport.

More than just the few extra “cc's”, the Yamaha is a more modern engine. This will generally result in better fuel economy, lower emissions, and lower engine weight and CG.

In the specifications, it is more than just suspension travel and brake size. Rake, trail, wheelbase, etc. all contribute to differences in how the motorcycle handles and feels as you roll down the road. A long wheelbase will be more stable than a shorter one, a steeper rake will generally turn in faster, etc.

Dealer selection makes it hard to go much further beyond that. I don't see a massive compelling reason to pick that over the Rebel. But then again, there isn't a compelling reason to pick the Rebel over the V-Star that I can see.

Does one brand have a better dealer or factory network where you live? Or, do you see significantly more of one over the other where you live?

While I am a long time Honda fan for their long service lives and highly regarded reputation, I should note I currently own one Kawasaki, one KTM, and my next will likely be a Yamaha 950 Tourer. Today's marketplace is much more competitive and the companies that are investing in R&D are bringing better products to the marketplace. Honda has a really good 500cc parallel twin but, it's old school 250cc Rebel is a very old motorcycle that needs to be freshened up.

In summary, you will be well served with the little Yamaha V-Star. In it's market segment it is a top competitor with modern features relative to its competition.

 

[Noctis3880]

The little V-Star is a V-Twin, not a parallel twin. This will generally make the motorcycle narrower between your legs which is better IMHO. The V-Star is also a more modern motorcycle versus the old school Honda Rebel. Your foot position is also a little more forward on the V-Star which a lot of people prefer. I wouldn't say the differences are significant but, they do favor the Yamaha.

Hmm, though old school doesn't necessarily mean not updated correct? The 2014 Rebel has improved mileage of 84 mpg. I do like the idea of a slimmer leg area(more comfortable).

First of all, generally ignore the EPA spec'ed motorcycle MPG results. Real world MPG will be different based on rider style and the environment you ride in. Static EPA motorcycle figures really don't match real world results in most cases. They are good for a general reference but don't take into account how you really ride a motorcycle where you live. In my case, I beat EPA estimates by ~50% regularly on my dual-sport.

True, but that EPA emissions test is standard across the board right? I'm mostly using it as a relative comparison.

More than just the few extra “cc's”, the Yamaha is a more modern engine. This will generally result in better fuel economy, lower emissions, and lower engine weight and CG.

Doubtful on the fuel economy if the EPA testing is standardized, but given that they're VERY close in mileage, it's not that big a difference or me. Not sure if less weight is good or bad with regards to ease of theft, as I've been told that only weights of 800+ lbs would pose any significant difficulty in simply tossing the whole bike into a truck and driving off with it.

In the specifications, it is more than just suspension travel and brake size. Rake, trail, wheelbase, etc. all contribute to differences in how the motorcycle handles and feels as you roll down the road. A long wheelbase will be more stable than a shorter one, a steeper rake will generally turn in faster, etc.

Still new, so I'm not sure what the differing numbers would do to either. I assume the difference isn't huge, given that they're both considered starter bikes.

Does one brand have a better dealer or factory network where you live? Or, do you see significantly more of one over the other where you live?

Honestly, most of the other reputable dealers are on the other side of the island. The one I found is relatively close at the airport about 5+ miles away. Given that my coworkers recommended I buy it myself without informing the family, I'll have to catch a bus there.

While I am a long time Honda fan for their long service lives and highly regarded reputation, I should note I currently own one Kawasaki, one KTM, and my next will likely be a Yamaha 950 Tourer. Today's marketplace is much more competitive and the companies that are investing in R&D are bringing better products to the marketplace. Honda has a really good 500cc parallel twin but, it's old school 250cc Rebel is a very old motorcycle that needs to be freshened up.

I like the classic styling, certainly seems less "aggressive" than say, a Kawasaki Ninja. Also going for a bright red color as a contrast to my high-vis yellow gear.

In summary, you will be well served with the little Yamaha V-Star. In it's market segment it is a top competitor with modern features relative to its competition.

Hmm, only a white one in stock at the dealer. Guess I'll call them about special ordering a red one(probably charge me for it too).

While used has been recommended to me, I've seen several accounts of used vehicles coming with a laundry list of issues(my brother's used Infiniti he got off craigslist ended up in the shop for 2 weeks before he drove it for even a week). Would also like the protection of a warranty from any manufacturer defects.

 

[Noctis3880]

Was a little curious about potential workarounds regarding parking.

It's an open lot(so anybody can walk in), ground floor, and I live on the 6th floor. Elevator is also small, and so is the walkway, so no bringing the bike upstairs.

While I've seen some people lock up their motorcycles/mopeds around the stone pillars(with a 20 feet chain), management was very careful about giving me a straight answer on one spot, mostly because it's right next to a board member's car, and I'd have to talk to him about it(no phone number, so I have to wait til his car is there and leave a note on it, assuming he reads it), or wait until the next board meeting in September. Still looking for an alternative spot a bit away and believe I found two candidates.

Spots have a little bit of view blockage(more the 2nd than the first, which can be seen from the street, albeit a distance away and with some shrubbery to block the view slightly). Catch is, there's nothing to anchor it to(pillar in 2nd pic is an elevator shaft, and having a chain around makes it easy to trip over), and I can't drill or modify the concrete or walls.

 

[Noctis3880]

My idea of an idea(maybe not the best my monkey brain can come up with) is to buy maybe 300-500 lbs of barbell weights(the disk ones) and loop a chain through the middle, and simply use those as an anchor. Thoughts? First spot might allow a truck through, but the second can obstruct direct access(but only if the cars are parked there). I figure with the weights + the weight of the bike(331 lbs for a Rebel), it might take a bit more than 4 guys to carry it away. While the weights would be pretty resistant to sawing and bolt cutters(I hope), I'm not sure if a sledgehammer would crack one in half(Edit: Further Googling suggests I should purchase bumper plates for this). I figure they have to be tough in case you drop them on a solid floor, and I don't see any practical reason to heat treat it hard enough to be brittle. If they're compact enough, I could add another 500 lbs and make it 1000 lbs total.

Good enough, or overkill? My brother insists 2 buff men could left the Rebel into a truck, bragging that he can bench-press 350 lbs by himself, which I think is slightly different from lifting a bike.

 

[Sid Post]

Hmm, though old school doesn't necessarily mean not updated correct? The 2014 Rebel has improved mileage of 84 mpg. I do like the idea of a slimmer leg area(more comfortable).

Updated in superficial ways, sure. The frame, engine, transmission, etc. are all very old legacy designs. Anyone can play with carburation and gear ratios to optimize the mileage cycle for any predefined test loop. Car makers do it all the time for 0-60 and quarter mile times and the EPA test loops.

True, but that EPA emissions test is standard across the board right? I'm mostly using it as a relative comparison.

Regarding EPA, where I live the first thing people do is remove the EPA stuff. Doing so to the Kawasaki like I have adds a little under a 50% increase in horsepower. It also added about 20MPG to my commute. In any case, the tests done for government compliance really don't match real world riding in my experience.

Doubtful on the fuel economy if the EPA testing is standardized, but given that they're VERY close in mileage, it's not that big a difference or me. Not sure if less weight is good or bad with regards to ease of theft, as I've been told that only weights of 800+ lbs would pose any significant difficulty in simply tossing the whole bike into a truck and driving off with it.

50 pounds is irrelevant in terms of theft. Again on fuel economy, what is best in an EPA test loop may not match real world results in your riding. Do you accelerate and brake the same? Run steady state for the same distance? Do you have the same hill climbs and descents? Are you heavier or lighter than the test rider? Are you taller or tucked in?

Still new, so I'm not sure what the differing numbers would do to either. I assume the difference isn't huge, given that they're both considered starter bikes.

New engines will generate more power for the same displacement in most cases. Generally not a significant difference but, noticeable on small displacement motorcycles.

Honestly, most of the other reputable dealers are on the other side of the island. The one I found is relatively close at the airport about 5+ miles away. Given that my coworkers recommended I buy it myself without informing the family, I'll have to catch a bus there.

Is that dealer a Yamaha or Honda dealer? Do you have any friends that drive towards the other dealers? Heck I drove with a friend almost a 120 miles to pick up his new car which is what, twice around the big island?

Or, pay for a friend to rent a small car, pay for his gas and some lunch and, get the motorcycle you really want, after all this is a big purchase for you so why settle for such a small reason if what you really want is at the other dealer?

I like the classic styling, certainly seems less "aggressive" than say, a Kawasaki Ninja. Also going for a bright red color as a contrast to my high-vis yellow gear.

The V-Star comes in good colors. Personally, I don't like black motorcycles, they are a real @#$@#$ to mount after they have been in the sun a while. A cream white Yamaha or candy red would be better. Besides, what will get you noticed most is the color of your jacket and vest, not the color of your gas tank in terms of visibility to “cagers”.

Hmm, only a white one in stock at the dealer. Guess I'll call them about special ordering a red one(probably charge me for it too).

I can't speak for the Islands but, stateside getting your color of choice for no "up charge" is easy. In fact, most sell below MSRP but, in your market I would expect MSRP with no surcharges. Be sure to ask about helmet and farkle discounts at the time of purchase which is a common bonus with a dealer purchase (as much as 50% off in some cases).

While used has been recommended to me, I've seen several accounts of used vehicles coming with a laundry list of issues(my brother's used Infiniti he got off craigslist ended up in the shop for 2 weeks before he drove it for even a week). Would also like the protection of a warranty from any manufacturer defects.

With experience I personally would not be concerned with buying a gently used V-Star 250. It is pretty easy to spot the ones taken care of and the ones that were abused. In your case, I agree you are probably better off with dealer after sale support. Simple things like the 600 mile service and having the dealer look it over with an oil change occasionally will go a long way to giving you many years/miles of happy ownership.

For where you are, either 250cc twin should easily do 45MPH in an urban commute and both should be able to run 60~70MPH when you aren't facing a bad headwind. All in all, a very enjoyable size of motorcycle for pleasure riding.

 

[Noctis3880]

Updated in superficial ways, sure. The frame, engine, transmission, etc. are all very old legacy designs. Anyone can play with carburation and gear ratios to optimize the mileage cycle for any predefined test loop. Car makers do it all the time for 0-60 and quarter mile times and the EPA test loops.

Ah yes, I did hear about practices in which the maker tweaks their product to pass a specific test, typically for marketing purposes.

Regarding EPA, where I live the first thing people do is remove the EPA stuff. Doing so to the Kawasaki like I have adds a little under a 50% increase in horsepower. It also added about 20MPG to my commute. In any case, the tests done for government compliance really don't match real world riding in my experience.

We talking disregarding the figures, or physically removing an actual part?

50 pounds is irrelevant in terms of theft. Again on fuel economy, what is best in an EPA test loop may not match real world results in your riding. Do you accelerate and brake the same? Run steady state for the same distance? Do you have the same hill climbs and descents? Are you heavier or lighter than the test rider? Are you taller or tucked in?

I'm probably heavier and shorter.

New engines will generate more power for the same displacement in most cases. Generally not a significant difference but, noticeable on small displacement motorcycles.

So twice the goodness on a higher displacement engine that's also more modern?

Is that dealer a Yamaha or Honda dealer? Do you have any friends that drive towards the other dealers? Heck I drove with a friend almost a 120 miles to pick up his new car which is what, twice around the big island?

Both I think. Their two largest selections seem to be from both.

I don't have friends

If your family wants to be friendly with you one day, then beat you until you're on your knees begging for your life the next, and kids at school make you the target of practical jokes constantly because you easily lose your cool, you develop human trust issues.

Or, pay for a friend to rent a small car, pay for his gas and some lunch and, get the motorcycle you really want, after all this is a big purchase for you so why settle for such a small reason if what you really want is at the other dealer?

Compelling argument, but I feel I'm quite satisfied between the two potential choices. It is however, much more complicated with craigslist where picking out a particular model you might like(Rebel, Nighthawk, V-Star) tends to be a small and sketchy market where every seller seems to be on the opposite side of the island. It's also a lot of trouble to go through to even check out the bike. Add that to the fact that, as a new potential biker, I can't see or detect any potential problems.

The V-Star comes in good colors. Personally, I don't like black motorcycles, they are a real @#$@#$ to mount after they have been in the sun a while. A cream white Yamaha or candy red would be better. Besides, what will get you noticed most is the color of your jacket and vest, not the color of your gas tank in terms of visibility to “cagers”.

Ah, but I feel proper color break/contrast makes it easier to spot that high visibility yellow(as opposed to just yellow, yellow/white, or yellow/grey). I feel like yellow and red, and maybe some black makes for the best contrast. Helmet is both high vis yellow and black, jacket should be high vis yellow, pants should be black, and the bike should be red.

Works for Clark Kent right?

I can't speak for the Islands but, stateside getting your color of choice for no "up charge" is easy. In fact, most sell below MSRP but, in your market I would expect MSRP with no surcharges. Be sure to ask about helmet and farkle discounts at the time of purchase which is a common bonus with a dealer purchase (as much as 50% off in some cases).

I don't believe the V-Star 250 comes with any compatible farkle. It's typically all aftermarket parts, and I doubt they'll sell any outside of a motorcycle shop(a shop shop, not a dealer).

With experience I personally would not be concerned with buying a gently used V-Star 250. It is pretty easy to spot the ones taken care of and the ones that were abused. In your case, I agree you are probably better off with dealer after sale support. Simple things like the 600 mile service and having the dealer look it over with an oil change occasionally will go a long way to giving you many years/miles of happy ownership.

Easy for a vet, pretty hard for someone who never rode anything.

For where you are, either 250cc twin should easily do 45MPH in an urban commute and both should be able to run 60~70MPH when you aren't facing a bad headwind. All in all, a very enjoyable size of motorcycle for pleasure riding.

Well, I'm going for a comfortable ride. Traffic really isn't that hectic since it's a small island and it's relatively simple to go around the business districts like Downtown/Chinatown and Waikiki.

 

[Sid Post]

My idea of an idea(maybe not the best my monkey brain can come up with) is to buy maybe 300-500 lbs of barbell weights(the disk ones) and loop a chain through the middle, and simply use those as an anchor. Thoughts? First spot might allow a truck through, but the second can obstruct direct access(but only if the cars are parked there). I figure with the weights + the weight of the bike(331 lbs for a Rebel), it might take a bit more than 4 guys to carry it away. While the weights would be pretty resistant to sawing and bolt cutters(I hope), I'm not sure if a sledgehammer would crack one in half(Edit: Further Googling suggests I should purchase bumper plates for this). I figure they have to be tough in case you drop them on a solid floor, and I don't see any practical reason to heat treat it hard enough to be brittle. If they're compact enough, I could add another 500 lbs and make it 1000 lbs total.

Good enough, or overkill? My brother insists 2 buff men could left the Rebel into a truck, bragging that he can bench-press 350 lbs by himself, which I think is slightly different from lifting a bike.

You are over thinking the theft options. Seriously. If someone wants your motorcycle bad enough, they can take a cutting torch to any chain you use or hacksaw/sawz-all through whatever piece of the frame you looped the chain around. Remember, it's not theirs so they don't care if it looks "pretty" or not.

Any yes, a 300~400# motorcycle is pretty easy to steal. Two good boards and a come-along will put a Harley in the back of a pickup by yourself in a few minutes. A tow truck is even faster.

 

[Sid Post]

We talking disregarding the figures, or physically removing an actual part?

In most cases, it means removing the catalytic converter and the crankcase hose that puts exhaust gases from the engine into the carburetor. For my little Kawasaki, I installed a KLX-300 exhaust pipe (no catalytic converter and bigger pipe diameter) which allow the engine to "breath out or exhale" better. On the air intake, I opened up the air intake inlet to the air filter to put more oxygen in. Finally, the crankcase breather hose was blocked off. This got rid of the crankcase exhaust into the carb, allowed increased air flow into the engine, and improved the exhaust flow. Total cost was negligible and in real terms turned my little 250cc in a ~375cc in terms of power.

So twice the goodness on a higher displacement engine that's also more modern?

50% more power in a small displacement motorcycle or quad runner is lot more noticeable than a 50% increase on a big bore where tires and traction are the limiting factors. You also have a lot less weight in a small motorcycle so that make each extra "cc" more noticeable.

Their two largest selections seem to be from both.

It sounds like you have a good local dealer. :thumbup: It should be easy to compare the Honda versus the Yamaha there. Be aware however, that a static test on the showroom floor won't tell you much about on road performance or comfort.

Take any motorcycle you are considering for a long "sit down" test. Put the kickstand up, and with only your right foot on the floor, put your left foot on the peg and toe up and down like your were shifting with both hands on the controls. Shift the handlebars left and right in a pretend turn. Do this once or twice every minute or two for ~15 minutes. Are your shoulders tired (i.e. too much of reach)? Is your lower back tired from leaning too far forward? Do you buns hurt (i.e. does the seat support your weight and body size)?

Seat comfort is an easy fix in most cases. As crazy as it sounds, a sheep skin seat cover is pretty popular. If you are really big and heavy, send your seat off to one of the better shops and they will rebuild it for your weight and bottom size. If the handle bar reach isn't right, have the dealer tweak it for you on the showroom floor as soon as you notice some fatigue, again an easy fix in most cases.

For myself, after about 10K miles I found I needed taller bars because I was riding more aggressively over time where I was standing on the pegs and the factory bars were too low for prolonged standing. Now, I am at the point I need to rebuild the seat since the foam has had all the life crushed out of it and the seat cover itself is starting to fray and tear away at the seams. I consider this part of the consumables just like tires and brakes. Be sure to save $10~$20 a month for your maintenance fund so when it's time to replace/rework a seat or buy a tire you have the funds ready to go.

Something to also keep in mind is chain maintenance. In your humid salt air environment, be sure to spray good chain lube on every week or two. Otherwise, plan on ~$100 for new chain and another ~$100 or so for sprockets every six months or so. When it comes time for a new chain, buy the GOOD STUFF. Good chain is lot easier to take care of.

I don't have friends

That's sad. If you ever come CONUS in the Midwest, look me up.

I don't believe the V-Star 250 comes with any compatible farkle. It's typically all aftermarket parts, and I doubt they'll sell any outside of a motorcycle shop(a shop shop, not a dealer).

"Farkles" are motorcycle geek talk for aftermarket accessories. Think of a chromed out Harley or a Honda GoldWing with lots of lights, cup holders, stickers, and the obligatory small dog or, a dual-sport "around the world" adventure bike with hard bags, crash bars, etc. Farkles are what make the bike unique to each owner not, what the factory offers to make every one of them the same.

Also, "cager" is a common motorcycle term for someone in a car that is oblivious to the motorcycles on the road.

Well, I'm going for a comfortable ride. Traffic really isn't that hectic since it's a small island and it's relatively simple to go around the business districts like Downtown/Chinatown and Waikiki.

For a comfy pleasurable ride, that V-Star has my attention.

With a few hundred extra dollars for an aftermarket seat and some side bags, I could see myself being very happy on it for several years. Small nimble motorcycles are a joy to ride until you get on the interstate out West where the Interstate speed limit is 70 to 80MPH and the semi-trucks are doing 90MPH or more. That's the only time I wish I had a real large displacement motorcycle - hence thoughts of the V-Star 950 Tourer. Great for long highway stretches at speed but, not so nice in town or on rural two lanes.

 

[Noctis3880]

You are over thinking the theft options. Seriously. If someone wants your motorcycle bad enough, they can take a cutting torch to any chain you use or hacksaw/sawz-all through whatever piece of the frame you looped the chain around. Remember, it's not theirs so they don't care if it looks "pretty" or not.

Any yes, a 300~400# motorcycle is pretty easy to steal. Two good boards and a come-along will put a Harley in the back of a pickup by yourself in a few minutes. A tow truck is even faster.

I think the thieves might care given that parts on a starter bike isn't exactly worth the effort. A cutting torch typically requires an oxygen and acetylene tanks, and I'm not entirely sure how small they make those, also quite stupid if the chain is wrapped anywhere near the gas tank.

Though admittedly, I plan to have a tarp locked over it whenever it's parked, so it would be pretty hard for anyone to tell what kind of bike it is(other than the fact that it's a bike).

 

[Noctis3880]

Further discussion with my nosey b*tch mother produced nothing of substance, other than the realization that sooner or later, she'll realize what I'm doing before I get my license and purchase the bike. Obviously not saying anything, but a motorcycle helmet and armored boots are rather difficult to hide in a tiny 2-bedroom apartment. I can say it's just being prepared, but she'll notice once she sees the kevlar gear. Again, hard to intercept mail since we both have the same address, and I have no friends I can send the stuff to hold onto. She told me "she simply doesn't like" motorcycles, as if I needed her f***ing approval.

Really not sure if dissolving the mortgage is an option that can go forward without permanently damaging my credit(which may mean no credit cards, ever). But frankly, the idea of going broke and starving to death on my bike has considerable appeal when compared to living under the roof(or 50% of one) of a goddamn Communist.

 

[Codger_64]

I have experienced being a human projectile in a MC crash and the six months afterward learning to walk again. I like my "cages" as you two-wheelers like to call them.

 

[Noctis3880]

I have experienced being a human projectile in a MC crash and the six months afterward learning to walk again. I like my "cages" as you two-wheelers like to call them.

What gear were you wearing, what speed, what riding conditions, where did you have your accident, and did you slide or slam into an SUV? What were the circumstances leading up to and surrounding the incident? Left turn? Rear end? Lane change?

I've heard so many "I know so and so who did this and that", but the precious details are always painfully lacking.

I'm not saying motorcycles are safer than cars, f*** no. But can someone explain to me why a moped with only a bicycle helmet(mom commented my full face helmet is too much for a moped, so she already f***ing decided what I'm going to be riding) is okay while a starter 250-cc class motorcycle in full gear roughly $2,500 in cost intended for racing(aside from the boots, which only have a shin plate and heel counter) is so much worse?

And for the record, exactly how long would it take for a 50cc moped to ascend over 230 ft in elevation over the course of a mile? What does that do to the engine? How many cars will blow by past me during that trip uphill? If the downhill trip has me going 40-50 mph without ever touching the throttle, how is that safer than a motorcycle going down at the same speeds? Do mopeds use different roads than motorcycles and are thus invincible against traffic accidents?

I also heard another head-up-the-ass comment about not wanting me on the highway when I pointed out that, no one in their right mind would go on one when they first start out. And as immutable proof of that, the only time I ended up on the highway while driving a car was when I made a wrong turn and had to turn myself around at the airport 5 miles away. How the hell do I get out of that mess if I make the wrong turn into a highway on a 50cc moped? Ask the cops for a lift while they're handing me a ticket?

 

[Sid Post]

Really not sure if dissolving the mortgage is an option that can go forward without permanently damaging my credit(which may mean no credit cards, ever). But frankly, the idea of going broke and starving to death on my bike has considerable appeal when compared to living under the roof(or 50% of one) of a goddamn Communist.

Bankruptcy is only 7 years, not a lifetime.

Is your quality of life really worth the stress you are under? Honestly, it sounds like you would be better off somewhere else. Sure, starting over is hard but, do you really want a lifetime spent in your current situation?