SAK: Life after Alox?

You guys are going to snub your nose at the toothpick because it's gross?? What exactly are you doing with it that it's so revolting to pick your teeth with? I mean, I'd understand not putting in your mouth what you use to clean your gun, but honestly if it's so gross you can't even bear the thought of using it without becoming nauseated I'd suspect you're either a) one filthy human being or b) some kind of hypochondriac/sissy baby girl. Clean your stuff every once in a while, or hawk the $5 to purchase SIX REPLACEMENT PICKS (each of which, properly taken care of, will last easily a hundred times longer than a bag of disposable ones, AND has the added benefit of not being a freaking BAG) seems like a much better economy to me, both in ease of carry and money spent.
 
InSpectre Gadget said:
You guys are going to snub your nose at the toothpick because it's gross?? What exactly are you doing with it that it's so revolting to pick your teeth with? I mean, I'd understand not putting in your mouth what you use to clean your gun, but honestly if it's so gross you can't even bear the thought of using it without becoming nauseated I'd suspect you're either a) one filthy human being or b) some kind of hypochondriac/sissy baby girl. Clean your stuff every once in a while, or hawk the $5 to purchase SIX REPLACEMENT PICKS (each of which, properly taken care of, will last easily a hundred times longer than a bag of disposable ones, AND has the added benefit of not being a freaking BAG) seems like a much better economy to me, both in ease of carry and money spent.
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Thank you! I knew i wasnt the only one not completely revolted by a toothpick! If you just use it to occasionaly pick at your teeth, and wash it between uses, i dont see the issue.
Then again, there are tons of things that can be used in its place... a folded up peice of paper or the back of your knife blade is fine for most "field tooth picking" IMO
 
InSpectre Gadget said:
You guys are going to snub your nose at the toothpick because it's gross?? What exactly are you doing with it that it's so revolting to pick your teeth with? I mean, I'd understand not putting in your mouth what you use to clean your gun, but honestly if it's so gross you can't even bear the thought of using it without becoming nauseated I'd suspect you're either a) one filthy human being or b) some kind of hypochondriac/sissy baby girl. Clean your stuff every once in a while, or hawk the $5 to purchase SIX REPLACEMENT PICKS (each of which, properly taken care of, will last easily a hundred times longer than a bag of disposable ones, AND has the added benefit of not being a freaking BAG) seems like a much better economy to me, both in ease of carry and money spent.
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+1 +1 +1
 
pinnah said:
Yes, but in a reverse direction.

IMO, the history of the camper pattern knife is all about how many can be made for how little. And this leads to compromise. And the question becomes, what compromise are you will to live with?

This is what I grew up with. Got my first when I was 8. Still have several laying around. Made by Ulster, which got gobbled up by Imperial Schrade. They use the infamous (for good reason) Swinden Key construction, which lowered production cost but leads to lateral blade wobble eventually. The don't fail, but they wobble and you can't tighten them up easily.

Modified Ulster Camper by Pinnah, on Flickr

Of course, if you didn't like Ulster and wanted a cheap camper, back in the day you could get an Imperial Kamp King, which had hollow stamped metal scales, which eventually would dent and crack.
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My first was a Kamp King, purchased at age 12 and kept 15 years as my only EDC pocket knife. It looked exactly like your Ulster except for a bail on the KK. Toward the end I lost the bale, but the metal scales on mine remained intact, despite periods of inhumane abuse (played a lot of "stretch" with it.) Some blade wobble did develop, not enough too care about. Over time I had became quite attached to the KK, but eventually gave it to a girl friend who promptly lost it.
A few years ago, a friend who knew my KK story, gave me an excellent condition Kamp King he had come across at yard sale for $1. If only it had a small screwdriver tip, like on the SAK can opener, I'd put it into my rotation. Instead, I keep it in my knife drawer to fondle once in a while.

pinnah said:
It's in this context that I understand the Victorinox (and Wegner) SAK's. They're made to be inexpensive knives and that means certain compromises. The flimsy plastic scales are one of those compromises and IME, they are incredibly flimsy. Of the 10 or so Vic Classics that I've owned over the years (almost all received as gifts) the scales all crack and then fall off. Also, the tweezers (which don't work well) and toothpick (which is disgusting) self eject, the blades wobble, the blade steel is too soft to hold an edge and the scissor spring bust. Other than that, they're cute little knives. On the larger ones, many that I handle have nail breaker tools on them. Enough already.

If I were to carry a camper style knife again, it be would an Ulster Camper. Even with the blade wobble, they're very durable and the quality of the carbon steel blade has ruined me against Victorinox's way too soft Inox. IMO, the single best thing Victorinox could do would be to increase the hardness of their blades to at least 56Rc. Would really prefer 58Rc, like Opinel's Inox (Sandvic 12C27).
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Well, I've had pretty good luck with Vics, although I must admit most of your objections were valid of the one Wenger I had once owned. However, none of my several SAks get really hard use.
For years, my only SAK was a Swisschamp, during which time I used every implement on it (except the small back spring mounted screwdriver) at one time or another. There are plenty of scratches and dings on those, but nothing broke and I only had to replace the scissors spring once, an easy job. Whatever steel they are made of, it's good enough for me.

pinnah said:
Speaking of Opinel, this is what I've been carrying for several years now.

EDC Pair by Pinnah, on Flickr

Both the Opinel and Leatherman Micra are cheap knives/tools and so they too have compromises. With the Opinel, it is how crude they are out of the box. The lock, joint and handle all need attention usually. Some TLC turns them into fantastic knives but you need to invest some elbow grease. What you get though is a knife that will out perform any SAK in terms of cutting. It's all about the blade and the Opinel's is way, way, way better imo.
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Only a few weeks ago I finally got around to getting acquainted with an Opinel 8 that I had bought some time earlier for its good reputation and cheap price. Lately I've used it for kitchen, yard work and miscellaneous chores or fun. What a swell knife! I can see why so many people think so highly of it. It's in my pocket right now.

pinnah said:
And the Micra.... The Micra's problem is that it has all of the charm and warmth of a Vulcan art gallery. They're stamped out with soulless precision. But man o man, they work. There's not a single aspect of the tool selection that they don't win out over any of the Vic SAKs on. The scissors are infinitely better. The screwdrivers, work. The nail file is awesome. And the tweezers actually work and work incredibly better than the SAKs if you know how to tune them up on a sharpening stone (takes seconds).

So yes... once I experienced other knives and once I tried plastic scaled SAKs, it's a no brainer for me.
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+1 on the Micra, and a good description, but the same size Vic (Classic, Rambler etc.) does have an advantage. Unlike the Micra, it is hand and pocket friendly. I like to carry keychain sized multi-tools in my fifth pocket, and the Micra keeps trying to chew its way out. Most jeans I own wind up with little holes on the pocket bottom. Lately when I carry the Micra it is in the leather slip Leatherman used to offer for them. Much easier on the clothes. My wife, who usually carries a SAK, literally hates the Micra, refuses to touch one. Once, when we were out and she hadn't brought her Climber, she need to trim something. When I offered her my Micra, she turned it down and went without, instead. But she's not a tool person. I can overlook the industrial nature of the design because I appreciate the utility that the small SAK can't really match.
 
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InSpectre Gadget said:
You guys are going to snub your nose at the toothpick because it's gross?? What exactly are you doing with it that it's so revolting to pick your teeth with? I mean, I'd understand not putting in your mouth what you use to clean your gun, but honestly if it's so gross you can't even bear the thought of using it without becoming nauseated I'd suspect you're either a) one filthy human being or b) some kind of hypochondriac/sissy baby girl. Clean your stuff every once in a while, or hawk the $5 to purchase SIX REPLACEMENT PICKS (each of which, properly taken care of, will last easily a hundred times longer than a bag of disposable ones, AND has the added benefit of not being a freaking BAG) seems like a much better economy to me, both in ease of carry and money spent.
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Like I said, I use the little plastic pick to clean my knives, scrape gunk out of my watch band, and other assorted tasks that make it a no-go for oral hygene duty. How ever anyone else chooses to use their SAK picks is fine with me.

Happy Holidays to all!

-Brett
 
timberweasel said:
Like I said, I use the little plastic pick to clean my knives, scrape gunk out of my watch band, and other assorted tasks that make it a no-go for oral hygene duty. How ever anyone else chooses to use their SAK picks is fine with me.

Happy Holidays to all!

-Brett
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:confused:
For clarity: no one wants anybody to clean their teeth with their gun cleaning tools.
 
znapschatz said:
Only a few weeks ago I finally got around to getting acquainted with an Opinel 8 that I had bought some time earlier for its good reputation and cheap price. Lately I've used it for kitchen, yard work and miscellaneous chores or fun. What a swell knife! I can see why so many people think so highly of it. It's in my pocket right now.
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No knife has more sentimental meaning to me than my old Ulster Campers. Well... maybe my grandfathers bowie, but still, I got my first stitches with my Ulster and that creates a bond. But really, after getting used to the Opinel (the N 9 fits my big hands better), find any slip joint frustrating. Even my beloved Ulster (and by extension, SAKs).

But, more to the point, I think the combination of EDC knife and small key chain tool, regardless of which ones, is a great combination.

+1 on the Micra, and a good description, but the same size Vic (Classic, Rambler etc.) does have an advantage. Unlike the Micra, it is hand and pocket friendly. I like to carry keychain sized multi-tools in my fifth pocket, and the Micra keeps trying to chew its way out. Most jeans I own wind up with little holes on the pocket bottom. Lately when I carry the Micra it is in the leather slip Leatherman used to offer for them. Much easier on the clothes. My wife, who usually carries a SAK, literally hates the Micra, refuses to touch one. Once, when we were out and she hadn't brought her Climber, she need to trim something. When I offered her my Micra, she turned it down and went without, instead. But she's not a tool person. I can overlook the industrial nature of the design because I appreciate the utility that the small SAK can't really match.
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Pocket carry is so personal. I've not had any problem with my Micras but I carry them in my LFP (with my money clip). I get annoyed with stuff in my change pocket, but again, highly personal. I find the flat profile of the closed Micra works well in the deep pocket. Too well. They pocket eject on me unless I put a lanyard on them.


Here's something that I don't think I could do with a small SAK.

Micra whittling by Pinnah, on Flickr

I grind the Micra's blade into a pen (almost wharncliff) profile and when fully opened, it's not horrible for whittling. Obviously, there are better whittlers out there. But, it is possible and not horrible. The wood in this picture is pretty rough going. The back of the Micra is nice and flat for the thumb and the longer open position gives me an OK (not Opinel great, but OK) 4 finger hold.

In terms of looks, only an engineer could say the Micra is nice looking. I don't blame your wife.

Wrapping this back to the OP's question, I would say that the "alox" (ok, stark stainless) utility and durability of the Micra definitely made impossible for me to go back to the plastic Vic Classics.
 
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pinnah said:
No knife has more sentimental meaning to me than my old Ulster Campers. Well... maybe my grandfathers bowie, but still, I got my first stitches with my Ulster and that creates a bond. But really, after getting used to the Opinel (the N 9 fits my big hands better), find any slip joint frustrating. Even my beloved Ulster (and by extension, SAKs).

But, more to the point, I think the combination of EDC knife and small key chain tool, regardless of which ones, is a great combination.



Pocket carry is so personal. I've not had any problem with my Micras but I carry them in my LFP (with my money clip). I get annoyed with stuff in my change pocket, but again, highly personal. I find the flat profile of the closed Micra works well in the deep pocket. Too well. They pocket eject on me unless I put a lanyard on them.


Here's something that I don't think I could do with a small SAK.

Micra whittling by Pinnah, on Flickr

I grind the Micra's blade into a pen (almost wharncliff) profile and when fully opened, it's not horrible for whittling. Obviously, there are better whittlers out there. But, it is possible and not horrible. The wood in this picture is pretty rough going. The back of the Micra is nice and flat for the thumb and the longer open position gives me an OK (not Opinel great, but OK) 4 finger hold.

In terms of looks, only an engineer could say the Micra is nice looking. I don't blame your wife.

Wrapping this back to the OP's question, I would say that the "alox" (ok, stark stainless) utility and durability of the Micra definitely made impossible for me to go back to the plastic Vic Classics.
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Oh, cool! That's the way I often use my Micra blade and implements with the handle extended. Can't do that with any of the Squirts (except for the ph driver) or Vics. Single bevel can be good for woodworking, but I reprofiled mine to a double, which I think works better for utility.
 
InSpectre Gadget said:
You guys are going to snub your nose at the toothpick because it's gross?? What exactly are you doing with it that it's so revolting to pick your teeth with? I mean, I'd understand not putting in your mouth what you use to clean your gun, but honestly if it's so gross you can't even bear the thought of using it without becoming nauseated I'd suspect you're either a) one filthy human being or b) some kind of hypochondriac/sissy baby girl. Clean your stuff every once in a while, or hawk the $5 to purchase SIX REPLACEMENT PICKS (each of which, properly taken care of, will last easily a hundred times longer than a bag of disposable ones, AND has the added benefit of not being a freaking BAG) seems like a much better economy to me, both in ease of carry and money spent.
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Agree. My toothpick's not so bad — it's as clean as fresh spit can make it!
 
timberweasel said:
I hear ya! I use the pick a lot (never as a toothpick, though) and find the tweezers very handy. I should have mentioned that I carry a Rambler on my keys...

core01.jpg
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Nearly identical setup here, I even added an E01, (same color) since the photo. Hard combination to beat. Great minds and all that.
SDC11583.jpg
 
I love both, but I have to admit, the Cadet has been finding its way into my pocket a lot lately. I just love how slender and classy it is. The Pioneer is on my short list, but admittedly, the Tinker with the "Don't Tread on Me" scales is also. Like I said, I love both.
 
timberweasel said:
I use the plastic pick mostly for cleaning the lint out of my folders. Never touches my mouth... yuck, indeed! :D

-Brett
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Yup. Plus I have a knife. You have toothpicks anywhere you have a bit of wood.:D The tweezers suck on them as well. I tried the whole classic on my keychain and it wasn't for me. The toothpick is gross, the tweezers don't work all that well, the knife blade, nail file, and scissors all went unused. It amazes me how many people absolutely HAVE to have scissors on them and yet I've never needed them. Even hiking. Everyone's different.

The day that Vic stops making alox is the day I stop buying that brand.
 
I'll never go back to plastic after trying an alox. I carry a pioneer rancher every day and despite borderline abuse it has held up great. I like the added heft and stronger backsprings over the red plastic. Don't miss the tweezers at all as I found them too weak usually and I carry a set of silver grippers on my keychain.
 
Shotgun, moleskin and thread/repairs are when I use scissors hiking.

Getting back to the Alox question... I would become more interested in the Alox if they would push the heat treat on the blades higher.

Alternatively, I think it would be interesting if Leatherman would take the stainless look of the super tool or the Micra and make a modern version of the old Camillus demo knife.
 
pinnah said:
Shotgun, moleskin and thread/repairs are when I use scissors hiking.
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I never warmed up to moleskin. Duct tape has always worked for me. I keep the second blade(modified sheepsfoot) on my SAK hair popping sharp and it works well for all kinds of things even minor surgery.:D For me scissors are a convenience rather than a necessity. I get why some people need them though.
 
Oh! Another thread today reminded me of something the plastic scales offer that the alox cant- holding a pin behind the phillips or corkscrew!

I wonder if someday they will make a "best of both worlds" option... one can wish
 
I carry different SAKs every day, some Wenger, some Vic. But I always have a midnight manager on one key ring, and a signature lite on the other. Good stuff!
James Y said:
If the lack of tweezers/toothpick are all that's keeping someone from an Alox SAK, why not also carry a Cellidor-handled Classic, Rambler, Executive, etc.? Any one of those takes up so little space. Problem solved. I actually prefer the small SAKs with the Cellidor scales over, say, the Alox Classic.

Even though I love Alox, as far as standard-sized SAKs go, I still use my Tinker a lot around the house. I'm also planning to try out a Bantam at some point.

Jim
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