Sal, police,military......,firefighter?

Lone Hunter · Jul 14, 2000

Like alot of knife companies Spyderco makes and markets to the police and military, and like the others seem to over look the firefighters. I'd like to share my thoughts with you about this.Most try to lump ff's in with the e.m.s world, while we may do both we also do alot more. Knives like S+W first responce,Meyerco's blunt tip model ( forgot the name) and the rescue are to single purpose for most ff's . To much focus on seatbelts and cutting clothes.EMT shears are the way to go for this, safer plus you have to either wash or throw away things that get blood on them. I can drop my bloody shears in the plastic bio-hazard bag and buy new ones for $4. or wash them , what do I do with an open razor sharp knife? Ok what do I use a knife for ? Well around the firehouse the samethings you use a knife for at your house ,cutting rags,cardboard, food prep ect. Field use , cutting plastic and tar paper to cover windows, cutting burned carpet,( anything burned must be removed from the house),cutting open mattresses to get at hidden fire, when I have to clean out a cut I like to poke a hole in the plastic bottle of saline and squeeze out a stream instead of removing the cap and dumping it. I'm sure I could think of many more uses but this is going to be long as it is. Most ff's carry a knife now,

mostly sak's or the hunters may carry a Buck 110 what ever they already own and use. When they see my Spyderco in action they are impressed, clip one hand opening and 50/50 are what they like, high prices are what they don't(ff's are cheap) alot of guys liked my 50/50 Delica they went to a local gunshop to get some they wanted $60, the ff's did not buy them . When smkw was sellin the old style ones for $24.99 I was reselling them to the brothers as fast as I could order them, at cost of coarse. I don't want to make money I just want to sell knives

I think you would do best to make a strong, versatile knife give it a firefighting name and market it to the brothers, how many cops bought the police model because of the name and marketing? Well I got one hour left before I start my night trick got to put on my uniform kiss the kids and clip a couple of knives to my pockets.

Sal this just came to me, an ad with say the Endura Delica, remote release and the rescue, along with ff's cutting open a mattress ,cutting a rope and ok maybe a seatbelt with the caption, Spyderco knives as sharp and tough as the people who use them.

[This message has been edited by Lone Hunter (edited 07-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lone Hunter (edited 07-14-2000).]

Sal Glesser · Jul 14, 2000

Lone Hunter - Thanx for the interesting thoughts.

First of all, it's not possible to make a truly high performing knife out of marginal steel. So it really isn't possible to provide "real performance" (not just marketing words) at a "cheap" price.

Second of all is a question for those ff that visit this site. What should the IDEAL ff knife be like?

sal

bwayne · Jul 15, 2000

as a professional firefighter i agree there should be a specific model made for the firefighter. in everday use the clip point is best, with a partially serated blade . the hump and hole must be large (like the military)and the liner lock must be easily released using the very large gloves we are required to wear per NFPA stardards. the rescue model is not a good choice because of the sheepfoot blade ,as i have always used trauma shears to cut clothing on ems calls. the clip point will pierce through charred sheetrock (if u have happened to lay your axe down in smokey and dark conditions)it must also cut double cotton jacketed hose to remove old couplings, it must cut rescue rope, electrical wires and station supply boxes. as for cutting seatbelts , i have not and will never put the blade against the body and the seatbelt of an entrapped victim in an automoble . i cut at a point either above or below the victim. the handle must be highly visible(red). the steel needs to be cpm440 because firefighters are abusive to tools and want a knife that they dont want to sharpen often. the handle should be either g-10(which i prefer because it grips well when wet) or zytel without the clip that is presently on the endura , that clip rubs the zytel to pieces when you hang it . the handle must also withstand high heat AND intense cold. the price should be reasonable because firefighters are careful with their hardearned money. i presently carry the 440cpm military serrated to work and put in in my bunker gear when i go to fire/ems calls

Joel McNamara · Jul 15, 2000

From my experience with both structural and wildland firefighting, an Endura always served me well.

A couple possible areas of improvement:

Over-sized Spydie hole for opening with gloves (ala the Military).

Reinforced tip.

Although folders are not meant to be pry bars, they will be used as such. Any design improvements to factor this in would be a plus.

One kind of off-the-wall suggestion might to somehow add some steel to the butt end of the handle, for some extra mass as a field-expedient hammer.

Price point is critical as Lone Hunter said. If I'm going to lose a knife, I want a performance blade I can easily and quickly replace that isn't going to hurt my wallet too terribly bad. One of many reasons I love the Delica/Endura family.

Joel

Lone Hunter · Jul 16, 2000

Sal, thanks for the reply. In my ramblings I didn't want to imply that you could make a knife for a lot less money only that , materials such as carbon fiber and titanium which may appeal to us knife nuts may make the knife to expensive for the non knfe nut ff. bwayne brings up a good point I clip my knife to my pants pocket but when I go on calls that require me to wear my turnout gear you have to now place it in your coat pocket or you can't get at it. But if you have your scba on the straps prevent you from sticking your hand in your pocket. Maybe a small kydex sheath that you have hooked on the straps would be a way around this?

bwayne · Jul 16, 2000

taking into account what joel and lone said here is my compromise for perfect ff knife
1. military design in size and liner lock
2. red zytel with large clip with three screws
3. ats-55 partially serrated blade stamped on blade "FIREFIGHTER"
4. optional fixed blade type style shealth to clip on your SCBA straps and leave on when on duty
5. priced the same as endura cont,--

James Mattis · Jul 16, 2000

Should the knife be not only openable but also closable with heavy gloves? The Gunting's kinetic opening system would seem ideal, but the compression lock seems to want a bit of dexterity to release.

Would a fixed blade be better for the purpose?

Kydex was mentioned. Wouldn't kydex be in some danger of softening and letting go under a firefighter's working conditions?

A firefighter's knife might find itself poking through things that have recently been on fire. Should the steel be something (ATS34 or M2?) that can handle high temperatures at the edge without losing its temper?

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

bwayne · Jul 16, 2000

plan of action: advertise where we will see it FIREHOUSE MAGAZINE, NATIONAL FIRE AND RESCUE, (of which my chief is editor-in chief)
result: untapped thousands of volunteers and full-time ff wanting one
FREE evaluator of prototype by 13 year veteran of the Chapel Hill,NC fire dept.
listening.. Sal

bwayne · Jul 16, 2000

Mr Mattis structural firefighting is only a small part of what i do. we are not allowed to carry fixed blades on duty on our belts just a folder. the knife needs to be multitasked. i didnt know that kydex would melt so easliy our working temperatures range from 400 to 600 degrees maybe higher. can u suggest an alternate shealth? i also dont know about steel temps ? do you think ats -55 would be ok in high range and low range temps.

Burke · Jul 16, 2000

I think Kydex would definitely let go at 600 degrees, and I'd be surprised if zytel would hold up well either. What about an aluminum handled folder, with a steel sheath similar to that which Gerber provides with their river-type knives? Make the detent for the sheath fit into the spyderhole in the blade, and maybe you could even fix it so the blade opened as the knife was withdrawn. That would be a big help for someone in heavy gloves.

James Mattis · Jul 16, 2000

Is the deparment's rule against belt-carry of fixed blades based on some functionality considerations, or is it based on considerations of "image"? Would the public really fear being stabbed by firefighters with fixed blade knives?

Sheath materials - Kydex can softened and shaped at home, using the kitchen oven. Leather can char, but it's hard to actually set it on fire. Or a metal sheath/carrier, maybe covered with fire-resistant cloth, like other turn-out gear. David Boye makes sheaths for his fixed blades that are spring-tensiononed brass boxes, covered with cordura nylon. When closed with the velcro flap, the sheath is a plain rectangle and not knife-shaped.

Curiosity - how much heat can Zytel/FRN stand?

ATS55 is a lot like ATS34, but without the high molybdenum content that the folks who speak metalurgy around here tell me gives it its high heat tolerance.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

BRAM · Jul 16, 2000

You guys bring up a good point..
I talked with Sal about this type of design long before this thread...some of the original Gunting-Variation proto drawings: about a reinforced tip for piercing materials ( ie wall board, walls, even car hoods..LOL..)the full thickness of the CPM 440V blade runs directly to the point/tip with hollow grind or flat grind tapering off from there!...and it would allow "mimimal" prying with the tip,.. Kinetic opening with LARGE hole,,,Kinetic so that if your hands are full or slippery you can open it ON ANY neighborig object...YES a compression lock,IT NEEDS to be the strongest we can give you guys! and no it takes no dexterity to use a compression lock..A large size G10-handles- colored SAFETY ORANGE.. of course to accomodate gloves etc..and ergonomically designed so that slippage is eliminated...
hmm sounds ;like a GUNTING on steroids...
The Butt has a carbide tip in it for breaking
glass etc...and even a photon light to allow vision in desperate situations!

[This message has been edited by BRAM (edited 07-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by BRAM (edited 07-16-2000).]

Lone Hunter · Jul 16, 2000

Thats a good point the kydex may not stand up to the heat,although our helmets are some kind of plastic and our facepiece is rubber and they hold up. the Rochester fire dept. has no rule against fixed blades, but I think if you wear one they would come up with one

. We do have a rule that you cant carry weapons, guess I'll have to leave the ax on the rig.

[This message has been edited by Lone Hunter (edited 07-16-2000).]

James Mattis · Jul 16, 2000

Hmmm ... A Gunting on steroids, designed as a disaster rescue tool, for making an emergency doorway where you wish you had your axe?

Maybe this would be something that would be politically correct for a civilian to carry too, since we typically don't walk around with a firefighter's full set of equipment, but we might encounter a disaster.

And I would assume that if that reinforced point was coming toward you, you would want to get out of its way.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

Joel McNamara · Jul 16, 2000

I'm not entirely convinced a Kydex sheath would be inappropriate on the fire ground. Kydex is extremely fire resistant. It's used in buses and aircraft, and must meet all sorts of DOT and FAA standards. See www.kydex.com for full specs. When I think about the plastic and rubber components of an SCBA mask, I really wonder if Kydex would fail under normal conditions. Yes, I know forming temperature is between 325 and 390 degrees F. But you're low, moving, crawling, and hopefully have a charged line with you. It's not like you're standing up, waiting for your helmet to melt.

I'm mostly involved with wildland fire these days, but as an experiment I'll give a friend a Kydex fixed blade sheath to wear the next time they have a practice house burn.

As for Zytel/FRN, I never had a problem with the old style Enduras with the plastic clip, even during fairly hot structural fires. The clip was always exposed when worn in my bunker pants, and I never saw signs of melting or deformation.

ATS-55 is fine. I don't believe the heat is going to be an issue with temper or performance in most situations. Bottomline is if it is, you're probably toast too. (I've seen a charred and partially melted Leatherman from a wildland fire fatality incident. Exposure temperature was estimated over 1,000 degrees F. Most of the tools were still functional though.)

High visibility color would be nice. Unfortunately, the red handles will mean a dulled, Spyderco training knife (Endura/Delica) in the coming months. Sal, how do the orange Rescues sell in comparison to the black? I know color has been an issue in the past. Personally, I'd rather have yellow. Much more visible in subdued light and smoke than red.

I think an Endura-handled/priced blade targeted toward firefighters/EMS would be a winner. Decent market size, and aside from the mariginal quality (in my opinion) Smith & Wesson with the built-in center punch for popping windows, haven't seen anyone target these ELUs. (I really see the Rescue as being best used for marine and rope work.)

Joel

BRAM · Jul 17, 2000

Making a knife to use in life or death situations and QUALITY don't reside in make it affordable to the average firefighter-EMS guy statement...
For the fire guys..well get the depts to buy it ...as for EMS guys..well I still bought good equipment..sort of like being a mechanic,,no one buys your tools for you so one buys good tools.
If SPYDIE makes a super firefighter EMS type knife that can do all that has been stated and asked for it will be worth EVERY PENNY that it costs..
Price is not my guiding factor with steel. firearms., tools, cars..it shouldn't be yours either.especially if your life or someone elses may depend on it...
Harsh?? not IMHO...
Actually SPYDERCO seems to me to supply the best bang for the buck PERIOD!

Joel McNamara · Jul 18, 2000

Bram:

I totally agree with you. When it comes to gear you're going to stake your life on, or toys you happen to collect/enjoy, spend the most you can afford to get the best.

Unfortunately, most people don't seem to follow that philosophy. I can't even begin to count the number of POS knives I've seen carried by fire and EMS folks. Scary. There seems to be this relationship between lack of knowledge and total dollars spent. At both the department and individual level.

If Sal makes a Gunting or Military variation that meets my fire fighting mission needs, I'll buy one in a heartbeat. Because I trust his blades, know about their performance, know the competition, etc. But unfortunately, I'm not your typical firefighter ELU.

In my opinion, if Spyderco is going after the fire market, it's going to need to go Delica/Endura price point, versus higher-end. I don't believe there are enough knife-savvy people in the segment to get a decent return on $100 plus knives. I do think an Endura class knife would have much better chances for success.

Ultimately, education is the key. Show people how a POS knife can fail during a life-threatening situation compared with a quality blade that won't. Key in on the fact that an extra $20, $50, $75 or whatever is a pretty cheap life insurance policy. After that, word-of-mouth starts to work its magic.

Joel

Sal Glesser · Jul 19, 2000

Thank for the kind words and support.

Joel, the yellow rescues were getting lost in the yellow gear, so we switched to orange.

We are working on a design and the input is valuable. Any input is appreciated. I believe the "best" fire fighters "knife" would best be created right here with ff speaking to Spyderco's R & D.

sal

CK · Jul 20, 2000

Bright green.

Of course the knife might become invisible if the firetruck happens to be green too.

James Mattis · Jul 20, 2000

As I recall, the fire trucks in Glendale, CA are a lime green sort of color and stand out in traffic. Of course, that still doesn't mean that everybody moves over like they should ...

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001