Sandvik 13C26

[Cliff Stamp]

At that Rockwell I cannot see any knife easy to resharpen.

This has more to do with other things like suitability of the steel to the work the knife is being used for and the efficiency of the grind. I have a knife made out of 1095 at 66 HRC which is far easier to sharpen than an AUS-4A knife in the mid fifties.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

It depends on what you use to sharpen. Most all your carborundum and other type stones are much harder than even the hardest steels so they will cut it. The real trick to sharpening is the consistancy to the bevel angle. The more precisely done that part is the better and more efficient the cutting and performance of the blade will be. It also helps to know the steel and select the type edge that best suits what you will be using the knife for.

Slicing tomatos will require more of a slicing type edge based on my uses but wood carving a high polish stropped one for push cutting. If you slice a lot in softer materials like rags and such with a high polished edge many times its much more difficult and can even make the blade appear to be dull but put a good course toothy edge on it and it cuts em right up like nothing. The good thing about a very good stable edge in high hardness is the length of time between both maintainance and sharpening (read reprofiling to a new bevel)

STR

 

[pogo]

Thanks Cliff & STR..! I am still learning new things here. Great thread!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It depends on what you use to sharpen. Most all your carborundum and other type stones are much harder than even the hardest steels so they will cut it.

Yeah, the only problem is with some of the ultra high carbide steels, especially those really high in vanadium. The grindability is REALLY low and the geometry and the knife must really be well suited to the steel or the knife will be a major hassle to sharpen. Phil Wilson is one of the guys who really knows how to work with such steels. He can make a knife from something extreme like 10V and it will be so easy to sharpen that a few passes on a small pad and it is razor sharp.

-Cliff

 

[The Mastiff]

I'm looking foreward to this run of knives. I am going to do my best to get one. Kershaw and spyderco are the only production companies that really keep us steel junkies in mind. I know it's not a major source of revenue, so I'd like to thank you Thomas W. for doing things like this.

Now, I have to find someone to take my pre order. This is a much smaller sprint than the ZDP leek was.

Normally I don't buy any more Leeks due to arthritis and nerve damage in my hand/wrist. They are well made but small. I'll have to make an exception for this one.

Thomas, when possible can you give us a product number for our pre orders? Regards, Joe Lewanowicz

 

[db]

Originally Posted by gunmike1
I wouldn't expect ANY manufacturer at all to make an edge that thin...
Lots of them do already, thinner even. I drafted up a proposal for Spyderco on this subject some time ago.

I’m all for some thinner blade grinds on factory knives. However, I am unaware of any that grind them as thin or thinner as Gunmike is referring to, .005 to .008 with an edge angle of 4 degrees per side. In fact I believe that extreme of a grind is kind of silly. If you are afraid to use it for anything except for very controlled test cuts, it really isn’t even a knife anymore. I wouldn’t refer to it as a working knife and even see very limited use, if really any as a test piece.

 

[gunmike1]

Cliff, was the U2 one of the knives in the .008" or under range from the factory? I know Wilson and Krein can go thin on their knives. I'm know the U2's are thin to start with, whereas the Krein reground one is of course much thinner. These knives ground at .005-.008" work great on food, cardboard, plastic packaging, and rope, you just have to limit the twisting action on harder cuts due to the higher hollow grinds. These are with low edge stability steels, I would imagine the 13C26 knives would be much better at resisting the chipping that can be seen from these steels at those profiles if you get careless with a hard twisting cut. I can understand a manufacturer not wanting to grind a knife that thin due to warrantee issues, but like Cliff said a warning with the knife in the box would seem to be a good cover your butt move if a manufacturer chose to ground the knife that thin.

 

[HoB]

Mike, we are doing a short run (500 pieces) of a 64.5 RC 13C26 Leek in the near future.

Possibly with a Ti handle.....Pleeeeease?

Very nice!!!!

And can't you guys quit the popcorn stuff and simply enjoy the announcement of a rather exciting new version of a well established model. As far as I am concerned, my day was made. Thomas, please be sure to give us the details soon. 500 pieces are not a lot and I sure don't want to miss this one, thanks!

 

[db]

Acording to Cliff's web page the U2 was flat ground down to.006 to .008 with an edge angle greater than 20 degrees per side, witch isn't thinner or even as thin as a hollow grind down to .005 to .008 with a 4 degree per side edge.

 

[kennqc]

i agree a Ti handle like the zdp-189 model or at least a rainbow finish.

ken

 

[Thomas W]

So, I have read many different Rockwell Hardness measurements for this steel as used by Kershaw.

MaxFisher, the current 13C26 blades that are leaving the factory have a hardness of 59-60.

Thomas, I don't know how we got off on the wrong foot. I know you've found these forums to be, let's say "challenging" at times. I also remember you posting something to the effect that the forums can make you feel sort of on the defensive, and I admire a person having that kind of self-awareness (I just think you need to chill a bit, it's only an online forum of self-professed knife nuts )

DoW, from a manufacturer's standpoint it will always be challenging on a forum. I do feel posters can take advantage of the position we are in which is unfortunate. We are fully exposed on a public forum, all in the name of keeping the consumer up to date on what we do and where we are going.

On occasion the forum can turn into the cutlery industries version of Inside Editon, too bad.
As I have posted in the past, many a great have left or refused to post because of these types of "challenges". Of course BF's is not exempt of this.
There are highs and lows to working on this forum, you have your fan base, and you can win over new customers, you also can be belittled and your integrity questioned within the hour. Challenging.....yea. Heck I've even been taken behind the woodshed by a poster and all but admonished over posting my frustration with these types of challenges.

Certain threads most certainly put you on the "defensive", and this is one of them.
Our intelligence, motives, execution, sources will be questioned and torn to shreds by a few. This is not the type of dialog that accomplishes anything of true worth, but is one that creates hard feelings and dissention. Why I feel the need to go into damage control mode confuses even me. Maybe you're right, maybe I need to chill a bit (although if you knew me personally, you would know that is not who I am). I'll try to remember to chill with certain posts in the future.

I also feel it is important to challenge posters occasionally. I trust this does not come off the wrong way, but feel it is important to call folks out once in a while. It is important to be accountable after all.

DoW, I don't feel that anything has been said or done that has crossed a line with us, and I really do hope to have solid correspondence with you in the future.

Thomas W, I can understand how you wouldn't like to comment on this steel publicly again and stir up the same old stuff like in the other threads. I do still find many questions very interesting and now that there is at least one of the very hard blades in someones hands instead of just a theory is interesting to say the least.

Db, from the Kershaw perspective, we are still finding our balance with 13C26. Establishing geometry and hardness on a multitude of patterns made for an enormous variety of consumers is no easy task.
We are still testing 13C26 at higher hardness's, but we do still need to see first hand all the "real world" pro's and con's when we do this.

BTW, I have always liked your style when you post, please continue on.

I wouldn't expect ANY manufacturer at all to make an edge that thin, I know that I will be paying for regrinds to get that thin, and that the knives are limited to light duty work at that profile. To the average "Joe" user they would destroy a knife quickly if you put one of those knives I have in their hand, you have to be straight and true with your cutting and use care not to twist out of cuts. I would however love to see a volume manufacturer put out a knife in that steel at that hardness as a production item, then I could do what I needed to do with the edge thickness and angle.

Mike, IMHO I believe your perspective on the above is quite sound.

13C26 RC'd to 64+ as regular production I don't think is out of the question, but again, we do need to finish up our testing prior to taking the next step.
In this instance we need a bit more of your all's patience.

I think Thomas W. deserves kudos for trying out that steel so hard, it seems like it performs well there, and shows KAI definately listens to it's customers and potential customers.

Thanks Mike. We do listen, and push to make the finest we can.
One of our motto's here at Kai USA is to "Exceed our own limits for our customers delight".

Kershaw and spyderco are the only production companies that really keep us steel junkies in mind. I know it's not a major source of revenue, so I'd like to thank you Thomas W. for doing things like this.

Thanks Mastiff.
Didn't I see you get on Kershaw's case in another forum though?

Cliff said a warning with the knife in the box would seem to be a good cover your butt move

Never work, sounded good though.

Thanks for letting me carry on some.

 

[Thomas W]

So on to the knife itself:

One of our larger distributors asked if there was something special we could produce in a 500 piece run for them We mentioned a high hardness 13C26 steel of which they liked very much.

They came back to us with wanting to do a variation of a Leek, and submitted this as dress up.

13C26 steel (64-65RC) w/black DLC coating, OD aluminum scales, liner lock. MSRP $84.95

Delivery will be 60 days or so. There has been no item # established at this time.

 

[hardheart]

*bangs head against wall*

I hate aluminum soooo much.

I'll just have to buy a regular framelock Leek and do a swap, no biggie. The black DLC will look cool.

59 days, 23 hours, 56 minutes...

or so

 

[Dog of War]

Appreciate the reply and comments, Thomas. And I really want to compliment you and Kershaw for making this high-hardness 13C26 Leek available ... when you consider it in the context of what's currently available on the market, it's actually a pretty radical thing to do. I like companies that are willing to do that.

 

[thombrogan]

Thomas W,

Any thoughts on putting a yanagi-style grind on that special edition Leek or would the asymmetry bug folks too much? I think it'd maximize the utility while keeping up lefties at bay.

 

[thombrogan]

While looks alone don't mean they are going to be the best performers in the world I think Kershaw should get big applause from the end line user for each one based on the price point they will be at and the knives they will compare to and compete with in the industry. Side by side for example when you compare features, benefits, fit and finish, overall balance of the total system and user friendliness they have a good thing going competing and often beating out knives of much higher cost. After seeing both side by side I would opt for the JYDII over an Emerson Commander hands down. No question about it. Sorry Ernie. First the price of the JYDII is going to be around $55 plus or minus at most retailers. Second it out performs the Emerson in every cutting and slicing test I ran them in and third and fourth, it has a better fit and finish, and a stronger more reliable lock of .070 stainless steel. vs a .050 titanium one from EKI. EDIT: Oh yeah. And even at the bargain price of $55 plus or minus its made in the USA!

The STR paragraph I'm quoting is particularly pleasing. Even without the comparison to Mr. Emerson's works, it's saying Kershaw is making folders that can be tailored to handle low-finesse and low-force works without a bloated pricetag.

 

[The Mastiff]

Thanks Mastiff.
Didn't I see you get on Kershaw's case in another forum though?

Thomas, This and spyderco forum are the only ones I post on, or read. I've not EVER got on Kershaw or you. I've been very supportive to you and Kershaw. You have me confused with someone else. Go back and read my comments on Kershaw threads and see if I seem like that kind of person. If you can direct me to this thread I'd appreciate it as I'd really like to see it.

Thanks, Joe L.

 

[Padawan]

Yeah, now consider Benchmade hardens them the worse way possible for knives and they still work well. Imagine what they can do when they are hardened properly.

Cliff, can you expound upon this? Have you encountered similar issues with BM's D2, or is this primarily limited to M2? I recently encountered some edge chipping and rolling on my father's relatively new D2 Griptilian, and the knife was not subjected to usage that would normally result in such damage. My first reaction is that it is the product of a poor heat treat, and since I rarely read of others experiencing similar problems, I assume it's a fairly isolated issue.

 

[the possum]

I’m all for some thinner blade grinds on factory knives. However, I am unaware of any that grind them as thin or thinner as Gunmike is referring to, .005 to .008 with an edge angle of 4 degrees per side. In fact I believe that extreme of a grind is kind of silly.

Case has been grinding their blades on certain patterns this thin for a long time. I have a small folding razor pattern in my pocket at least that thin, though the factor edge was probably sharpened at a higher angle initially. (been a decade since I sharpened off the factory edge, so I don't really remember.) Also, the spey blades on their stockman patterns usually ground much thinner than most factories do; don't have my calipers handy. But then again you have to put up with their lousy steels and heat treatments.

For all you guys who are so interested in extremely thin edges, I'm surprised you don't play around more with old straight razors. They can be found cheap in any flea market or antique store, and are usually good hard steel.

 

[Thomas W]

I'm just being a punk with you Joe , I've always appreciated your support.:thumbup:

Since we are talking Leek's right now, how does an M4 version sound?



I did occur to me after my long winded response from above, that I may have been coming off in a way that looked like I didn't want to hear open and honest dialog from everyone. I think it is most important that we be questioned or challenged regularly here. It does push us to improve as a company and our future products will be better off because of it.
Please don't stop.