Sandvik Hardening Guide

R

Razorsharp244

Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
311
Hi all,
My name is Jerker and I work with technical support for Sandvik knife steels, among other products. I have been around these forums for a while now and reading about what you guys like to discuss when it comes to steel and steel performance.

I have, together with a couple of collegues, written a guide to Sandvik knife steels, heat treatment and comparisons between different steel types (coarse grades, powder steels and fine carbide steels). We also decided to make this guide open to the public, since I know there are some interested knife people out there. The guide is here:

www.smt.sandvik.com/hardeningguide

Please challenge my statements and conclusions, I would like to hear what you really think about it.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Thanks, we appreciate your efforts!

I've looked through the new site and find it much more useful than the old one.
 
Thanks Jerker. I live in South Africa and we(custom makers) use a lot of your steel here.

We mainly use 12c27. Recently we have managed to gain access to 19c27, i have not worked with it yet but i have bought some to try.

Thanks for the guide, i have passed it on to some of my knifemaking friends here.
 
Andre V said:
Thanks Jerker. I live in South Africa and we(custom makers) use a lot of your steel here.

We mainly use 12c27. Recently we have managed to gain access to 19c27, i have not worked with it yet but i have bought some to try.

Thanks for the guide, i have passed it on to some of my knifemaking friends here.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Andre V said:
Thanks Jerker. I live in South Africa and we(custom makers) use a lot of your steel here.

We mainly use 12c27. Recently we have managed to gain access to 19c27, i have not worked with it yet but i have bought some to try.

Thanks for the guide, i have passed it on to some of my knifemaking friends here.
Click to expand...

what's 19C27 like Andre.and does it come in my sizes?:D
 
harm said:
what's 19C27 like Andre.and does it come in my sizes?:D
Click to expand...

I havn't used it yet. Johan has 3mm and i think 4MM. So its a bit on the skinny side for you.

I will send you a piece if you like. I only have 3mm though.
 
Razorsharp, it seems as if some very high quality steels are almost an afterthought in your presentation. Isn't
"Powder steel grade 1.05%C 14%Cr 4%Mo"
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RWL34, one of the better steels on the market as far as consistancy and capabilities? Similar to 154cm ( or a better comparison CPM 154cm )

IIRC, It's also a steel used in the making of Damasteel? There again I could be all wrong . Thanks, Joe
 
Thank you for putting this information together for us.

I had thought about getting a custom in 13C26 hardened near it's max hardness (Max is 65 from what I know, the maker recommended 64-63). Are there any performance issues you would expect from a general purpose knife made this way? I had a pretty favorable opinion of 13C26 as Kershaw runs it (Softer than I intend the custom to be) except the edge would burr easily when I tried to sharpen it, making it more difficult to achieve the type of very sharp edge this steel can take, and they left it with a beadblast coating which made it more prone to corrosion.

Also, is there somewhere where I can learn more about carbides and other steel structures that affect edge performance? Looking at 19C27 compared to 13C26 it seems the large carbides reduce the potential for a very sharp and stable edge. Is this correct?

My knife cutting is rarely ever abusive materials, I generally use more specialized tools like axes, wire cutters etc, so my primary interests for an EDC knife are the ability to take very thin edges, get quite sharp and hold the edge for some time. I also prefer steels that burr little when sharpening. I haven't had any steels that I haven't been able to get sharp though, so I wonder how much of a difference steel makes.
 
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Thanks for the great site. I appreciate the work you guys/gals do to bring such great products to the markets.
 
The Mastiff said:
Razorsharp, it seems as if some very high quality steels are almost an afterthought in your presentation. Isn't RWL34, one of the better steels on the market as far as consistancy and capabilities? Similar to 154cm ( or a better comparison CPM 154cm )

IIRC, It's also a steel used in the making of Damasteel? There again I could be all wrong . Thanks, Joe
Click to expand...

Hi The Mastiff,
There are two reasons why there is not much emphasis on this and other grades. First reason is the fact that it's not our grades. The second one is that this particular grade which is ATS34, 154CM or RWL34 depending on who is producing it, all have names that identifies them to a specific supplier. 154CM is Crucible Metals for example. Sandvik never points fingers directly at our competition since it can easily be seen as we try give a specific competitor a bad reputation. That is not how we do business. That is why I used the composition for identification. I also think that there are differences between these three steels when it comes to product quality, they are different producers after all. RWL34 is the one of these steels that are least talked about (in North America and Western Europe at least).

I agree that ATS34, 154CM and RWL34 are good steels. In the class of coarse carbide grades I personally believe they are at the same level as VG10and N690Co. But instead of making a deep analysis of everey single steel grade on the market we decided to focus on the four classes of steels. Course, Powder, Fine and Carbon. We are focused on the fine carbide steels (with the exception of 19C27) and we aim to be the number one in that nisch of the business.

I have only seen "conventional" RWL34, is there also a powder steel version like the CPM154?

Dont know anything about Damasteel unfortunatly.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Vivi said:
Thank you for putting this information together for us.

I had thought about getting a custom in 13C26 hardened near it's max hardness (Max is 65 from what I know, the maker recommended 64-63). Are there any performance issues you would expect from a general purpose knife made this way? I had a pretty favorable opinion of 13C26 as Kershaw runs it (Softer than I intend the custom to be) except the edge would burr easily when I tried to sharpen it, making it more difficult to achieve the type of very sharp edge this steel can take, and they left it with a beadblast coating which made it more prone to corrosion.

Also, is there somewhere where I can learn more about carbides and other steel structures that affect edge performance? Looking at 19C27 compared to 13C26 it seems the large carbides reduce the potential for a very sharp and stable edge. Is this correct?

My knife cutting is rarely ever abusive materials, I generally use more specialized tools like axes, wire cutters etc, so my primary interests for an EDC knife are the ability to take very thin edges, get quite sharp and hold the edge for some time. I also prefer steels that burr little when sharpening. I haven't had any steels that I haven't been able to get sharp though, so I wonder how much of a difference steel makes.
Click to expand...

Hi Vivi,
We recommend 13C26 up to 62 HRC. If you want to go higher you would have to go by our recommendations but add 10 degrees C (about 20 degrees F) and go cooler on the deep freeze. Like -150C. That should give you another point or a point and a half. I doubt you can get it higher than 63,5 but please try and let me know. Just dont open cans or pry with a knife that hard, even if it's 13C26 which is inherently quite tough. Please be firm on the recommendations to your heat treater. I have seen some suberb heat treatment as well as some terrible ones and everything in between from smaller heat treaters. The only performance issue is lack of toughness, you have to judge yourself if it's good enough. In theory it should be tougher than most steels at that hardness since the structure is fine grain.

When it comes to carbides I have not really seen much good study material. I would start at our hardening guide (www.smt.sandvik.com/hardeningguide). There is a book by Roman Landis that I think deals some with carbides also. Apart from that I dont know where to find it. Maybe someone here knows?

19C27 is the "odd apple" in our steel grades, since it contains large (primary) carbides. No, it will not take the same edge as 13C26 or 12C27 because the carbides will cause a micro-serration on the edge. 19C27 is similar to 440C or D2 when it comes to sharpness related issues.

Some steels are definetly easier to sharpen than others and again it comes down to the large carbides. If there are none like in carbon steels or 13C26/12C27 they will behave in a similar way. 440C and D2 will be harder to sharpen and they will not allow the same keen edges without risking edge-chipping.

As with everything else, skill is key factor for sharpening. The average forumite will be much better than the average person to re-grind knives. With enough skill a ceramic blade can be sharpened, but i would not call it easily re-sharpened. I firmly believe that there are differences between different steels when it comes to re-grindability.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Razorsharp, My fault. I was under the impression that your company also produced a version of the AST34/154cm/CPM154cm, etc. I'm not sure where I got that from actually.

I too think what youy are doing here is excllent. I wish more companies would have a presence here. Hopefully it will translate into more sales/availibility to knifebuyer of your products.

I personally would love to try a knife in 19C, the only one I don't have a few knives in presently. I've heard good things about it.

Kershaw has done a great job of putting 13C on the map here. Once again, thanks. Joe
 
Razorsharp244 said:
Hi Vivi,
We recommend 13C26 up to 62 HRC. If you want to go higher you would have to go by our recommendations but add 10 degrees C (about 20 degrees F) and go cooler on the deep freeze. Like -150C. That should give you another point or a point and a half. I doubt you can get it higher than 63,5 but please try and let me know. Just dont open cans or pry with a knife that hard, even if it's 13C26 which is inherently quite tough. Please be firm on the recommendations to your heat treater. I have seen some suberb heat treatment as well as some terrible ones and everything in between from smaller heat treaters. The only performance issue is lack of toughness, you have to judge yourself if it's good enough. In theory it should be tougher than most steels at that hardness since the structure is fine grain.

When it comes to carbides I have not really seen much good study material. I would start at our hardening guide (www.smt.sandvik.com/hardeningguide). There is a book by Roman Landis that I think deals some with carbides also. Apart from that I dont know where to find it. Maybe someone here knows?

19C27 is the "odd apple" in our steel grades, since it contains large (primary) carbides. No, it will not take the same edge as 13C26 or 12C27 because the carbides will cause a micro-serration on the edge. 19C27 is similar to 440C or D2 when it comes to sharpness related issues.

Some steels are definetly easier to sharpen than others and again it comes down to the large carbides. If there are none like in carbon steels or 13C26/12C27 they will behave in a similar way. 440C and D2 will be harder to sharpen and they will not allow the same keen edges without risking edge-chipping.

As with everything else, skill is key factor for sharpening. The average forumite will be much better than the average person to re-grind knives. With enough skill a ceramic blade can be sharpened, but i would not call it easily re-sharpened. I firmly believe that there are differences between different steels when it comes to re-grindability.

Regards
//Jerker
Click to expand...

I will let you know how it goes when I am ready to get the knife. I'm primarily curious to see how sharp it will get, how long it will stay sharp and how thin of an edge it will support. I'm going to aim for 63-64 based on the makers suggestion, since I trust his knowledge of steel more than mine.

I haven't come across a knife steel that refused to take a good edge. Yet. I have noticed certain steels taking an edge much quicker than others though. VG10, 13C26, 12C27 and the steel Victorinox uses all sharpen very quickly for me. S30V, D2, ZDP-189 and S60V take more time to get a good edge. While I can get my S30V knives sharp enough to whittle hair, they seem to lose their ultra sharp edge quickly, then hold on to a decent level of sharpness for a very long time. I'd like a steel that holds the highest degrees of sharpness exceptionally because I never let my knives go very dull.

I don't know if it's just the amount of grinding that needs to be done or if carbides etc. are also playing a role, but I've felt my Mora will take a razor sharp edge effortlessly (12C27) while S30V takes some actual work to get that way.

Thanks for your response. BF is made a better place because of people like you and other company reps who take time to directly answer our questions.
 
Mastiff,

While you have yet to have the pleasure of Sandvik's 19C27, you may have tried some steels with copycat alloy profiles. MBS-26/VG-1/Gin-3 are all very close numbers-wise, but I doubt they're as pure as 19C27 (or else the folks from Misono and Suisin wouldn't keep using it for their more expensive knives).

Thanks for the links, Jerker!
 
Thanks Thom, I do have knives using MBS 26, and VG1. I haven't tried Gin 3 as of yet. I have heard some very nice things about 19C and hope to see more of it in the future, if nothing else, in boutique runs from one of our favorite knife companies that has a good relationship with Sandvik. Joe
 
Vivi said:
I will let you know how it goes when I am ready to get the knife. I'm primarily curious to see how sharp it will get, how long it will stay sharp and how thin of an edge it will support. I'm going to aim for 63-64 based on the makers suggestion, since I trust his knowledge of steel more than mine.

I haven't come across a knife steel that refused to take a good edge. Yet. I have noticed certain steels taking an edge much quicker than others though. VG10, 13C26, 12C27 and the steel Victorinox uses all sharpen very quickly for me. S30V, D2, ZDP-189 and S60V take more time to get a good edge. While I can get my S30V knives sharp enough to whittle hair, they seem to lose their ultra sharp edge quickly, then hold on to a decent level of sharpness for a very long time. I'd like a steel that holds the highest degrees of sharpness exceptionally because I never let my knives go very dull.

I don't know if it's just the amount of grinding that needs to be done or if carbides etc. are also playing a role, but I've felt my Mora will take a razor sharp edge effortlessly (12C27) while S30V takes some actual work to get that way.

Thanks for your response. BF is made a better place because of people like you and other company reps who take time to directly answer our questions.
Click to expand...

Hi Vivi,
Your experience with grinding knife steels fits well with our theory. Powdersteels like S30V, S60V etc have a VERY high carbide density that will be more difficult to grind. For some it means just more time, for others that they will have problems sharpening their knife at all.

The 12C27 Mora and the S30V are quite far from each other when it comes to re-grindability. 12C27 will be close to pure carbon steels in terms of ease of sharpening while S30V with it's vanadium carbides will require some effort.

I cant know for sure why your S30V knives loses it's initial hair popping sharpness so quickly, but I can provide my input. Fine-grain steels like 12C27/13C26 tend to roll and S30V tend to edge chip. (all knife steels will do one or the other if pushed hard enough). Can the loss of sharpness be microscopical chipping?

If you would have said that 12C27 lost it's edge quickly I would have guessed that the knife had a rolled edge and maybe that it was heat treated rather soft.

Regards
//Jerker
 
A question for Jerker, Larrin, and our SA knifemakers:

How much of a beating can 12C27 or 12C27M take when chopping, digging, and prying as compared to such standby steels as 5160 and 1095 at hardnesses of HRC57-60? Would 7C27Mo2 be better if impact, prying, and twisting strength are valued over wear-resistance?

Many thanks!
 
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