Sandvik Hardening Guide

Larger carbide grades lose initial sharpness quickly because the finely sharpened edge is smaller than the carbides, there is carbide pullout during sharpening, it is possible to get a very fine edge, but you have to get rid of the carbides first. The edge is unsupported by carbides so it wears quickly down to where the edge is properly supported by carbides. Fine carbide grades hold their initial edges better than coarser grades and coarser grades have the advantage in the long run. But who wants a knife that is semi-sharp for a long time?

On my experience carbides got sharpened as well as surrounded steel. I can sharpen any steel to hair whittling sharpness without problem including D2 which has huge carbides. And they stays on place as well.

Bulat which has even bigger carbides forming internal network as well can be sharpened to same extent without any problem.

Even vanadium carbides can be sharpened same way in CPM S90V etc.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Jerker, many thanks for posting that outstanding guide, and for opening up the discussion here. :cool: :thumbup:
 
On my experience carbides got sharpened as well as surrounded steel. I can sharpen any steel to hair whittling sharpness without problem including D2 which has huge carbides. And they stays on place as well.

Bulat which has even bigger carbides forming internal network as well can be sharpened to same extent without any problem.

Even vanadium carbides can be sharpened same way in CPM S90V etc.

Thanks, Vassili.
According to what evidence? Carbides are too brittle to be sharpened, you sharpen them out when you get those sharp edges.
 
Well I do not have microscope, but I was not able to sharpen CPM S90V with ceramic - ceramic is softer then vanadium carbides. I did not see improvement after Ultra Fine Ceramic. Once I switch to diamond powder - it gets sharper right away.

Carbides get to be sharpened. Especially D2 proves it , because sive of carbides there like 50-80 microns and still I able to sharpen it to hair whittling sharpness. And in case of bulat where you can see by naked eye thise carbides sustructures it is even more clear.

I am talkin only about practical evidence - with or without big carbides any steel can be sharpened to hair whittling sharpness and stay this way for quite a long time. So to me this is prove that carbides get sharpened by proper sharpening. But even if not - result is same for all steel so this theory of too brittle carbides has no practical effect.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Every D2 knife I've seen showed signs of carbide tearout during sharpening. Just because you get it to hair-whittling sharpness doesn't necessarily mean anything.
 
Every D2 knife I've seen showed signs of carbide tearout during sharpening. Just because you get it to hair-whittling sharpness doesn't necessarily mean anything.
LOL you may want to ajust your sharpening of D2 then. I as well as many others have been able to sharpen D2 with out the carbides falling out. In fact I believe the carbide tearout theory is just that a theory and not a real life factor.
 
Once again I have BM Elishevits Ares D2 whitteling hair all over edge length. As well as BM 710 M2 as well as any other steel including bulat:

knife-83-015.jpg


Where you can see those carbides, all sharpened just fine and performs well.

How do you sharpen you knives?
Do you able to make them hair whittling?

Thanks, Vassili.

And this one:

knife-82-20.jpg


and this one:

knife73-04.jpg
 
Jerker, could you please provide the composition of Sandvik 14C28N steel, and how it compares to 12C27 and 13C26? Thanks, John.
I believe 14C28N was designed to have the edge properties of 13C26 (wear resistance, potential hardness, etc.) while having the corrosion resistance of 12C27.
 
I believe 14C28N was designed to have the edge properties of 13C26 (wear resistance, potential hardness, etc.) while having the corrosion resistance of 12C27.

Yes, that is true.

Composition of 14C28N:
Carbon: 0.62%
Chome: 14%
Nitrogen: 0.08%

Regards
//Jerker
 
Few questions.

1. How do you test you steel to verify quality needed for knives.
2. What purification process do you use for your steel - ESR, VAR?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Few questions.

1. How do you test you steel to verify quality needed for knives.
2. What purification process do you use for your steel - ESR, VAR?

Thanks, Vassili.

Hi Vassili,
We use an electric arc furnace to melt sorted recycled steel (high quality scrap), and then an AOD-converter (Argon Oxygen Decarburization) to control composition and reduce impurities.

Some impurities are removed in the electric arc furnace but most of it is reduced in the AOD-converter. The AOD works with a magnetic stirring system that forces the impurities to the surface where they are easily removed. After that there is a continous casting with several steps of magnetic stirring that homogenizes the steel into a the fine-grain structure we want. After that there is hot-rolling, annealing/pickling, cold-rolling with intermidate annealing steps, inspection and finally slitting, packing and shipping.

The composition is controled during melting in the electric arc furnace, during the melt and the extra "ingredients" are added. The composition is again checked in the AOD-converter.

The microstructure is controled after annealing/pickling of the hot rolled coil and then checked again before shipping.

Other aspects like flatness, surface roughness, straightness etc are checked at the inspection just before packing. Samples are also sent for testing of tensile strength (hardness), elongation, microstructure etc at the testing room. This info will follow the certificate we ship with our product. We use the same purifing process for all our steels and they make the demands for medical, aerospace, nuclear and food industri quite easily.

If the customer has special demands (like for medical applications like scalpels) the purity, microstructure etc must again be checked and certified just before packing/shipping.

I hope that answered your questions.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Thank you - very interesting - is AOD unique process for Sandvic only, which gives you advantage over competitors? And high purity and microstructure control makes you steel better then everybody else.

Or what do you think make you special?

About testing - I meant blade testing, how do you test that blade stays sharp long. Is it manila rope cutting or something else.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Thank you - very interesting - is AOD unique process for Sandvic only, which gives you advantage over competitors? And high purity and microstructure control makes you steel better then everybody else.

Or what do you think make you special?

About testing - I meant blade testing, how do you test that blade stays sharp long. Is it manila rope cutting or something else.

Thanks, Vassili.


Hi again,
"better than everybody else".
We have strong competitors as well, of course. Apart from the product we compete on soft issues like tech support, flexibility own local sales force etc. We believe that all of this put together makes us a strong supplier. The days when a good product was enough are over. Good product is only a qualifier these days.

I cant imagine us being the only ones with an AOD converter. But our combination of AOD, stirring system and continous casting would probably not be seen in many other places.

We believe, and we have never asked anyone to agree with our opinion, that fine-carbide steels are superior to coarse ones for edge applications. And we do make fine carbide steels in a good way compared to the competition we have. After all, powder-mets exists because it allows coarse grades to become finer with the same chemical composition. Why else would people pay ALOT extra for CPM154 than for 154CM, if not for the added benefits of the finer carbides (with constant carbide density)?

When it comes to purity it's kind difficult to measure but we know from some customers who makes tests for the nuclear industry for instance that we are very good at this.


And product quality, that also includes things like surface finish, straightness, flatness, composition tolerances, tensile strength tolerances, thickness tolerances and so forth. We are a "Precision strip mill" which means that our maximum width on our steels are around 400 mm, many 420/440 suppliers out there makes 3 times that width. Precision mills are generally more specialized and into "small volume business" like razorblades instead of bulk produced 440 for instance. We mainly act where the wide width mills cant fulfill the demands required.

About testing: Blade testing is done by our customers. We cant make blades or grind them. We do some standardized wear tests if necessary but for knives I think customers/field testers are a better reference. We have toughness tests made but these are somewhat difficult to present in a general way since the toughness for varies with hardness and retained austenite levels. One test was an impact energy test, where a piece of steel is broken by a swinging arm (this is a common test and it surely has an english name but I dont know it). The toughness is measured on the amout of energy required to break the piece. High energy=high toughness. With this method a D2 blade of 55 HRC had one third of the toughness of 12C27 at 58 HRC. We did this tests since many people seem to regards D2 as tough and that does not make sense with the theoretical knowledge we have of steel. We tested and falsified this myth.

But in general we do no blade tests. i have heard of an old home made CATRAish machine somewhere in our R&D building but I never bothered with it.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Thank you very much. So in summary it seems like you effort to make fine carbides make your steel able to compete with PM steels in this parameter. I am wondering if you steel will be better then PM steel with same composition - just because it cooks longer and "normal" way not explosion like melting.

But as I understand PM most point is to make almost any composition which impossible to mix otherwise. Can you compete with PM in this area as well?

I heard many times in Russian forum that with (Zr) or other lantanoids in 0.0??% in composition high carbon steel - iron cast can be much tougher. Did you try add lantanoids as a alternative to PM to produce high carbon steels? Can you comment on this Zr idea in general?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Hi Vassili,
We dont really compete much with PM steels actually. It's really a different product. In some areas we compete, like knife steel and some other specialized niches. Not in a major way.

PM steels are in a different price and it's a plate or bar material, not a coiled strip material.

Our steels are "balanced" in composition (19C27 is the exception), that means that we can make fine carbide steels with conventional (not powder) technology.

PM-steels really come to their right when the steels are "over-alloyed" meaning that the steel WILL HAVE TO form large primary carbides. Steels like 440C, 154CM, D2 etc. Powdered versions of these are huge improvements in my opinion. Within the "over-alloy steels" like tool steels and high speed steels you are right, conventional versions of these performs much worse (in most applications).

Making 12C27 in a powdered version would not benefit the steel at all. Our structure is already fine and balanced so a well-made powdered version would be very similar, only much more expensive.

In terms of wear resistance (Catra-style) PM steels and over-alloyed steels are superior to ours (except 19C27 which should be similar). When it comes to toughness our steels are better. Sharpness, well I read your discussion with Larrin. I believe that 12C27 gets sharper easier than for instance D2, also it has a smaller risk of edge chipping. The sheer volume of carbides (which are brittle) will decrease the resistance against edge-chipping.

These differences makes us competitve against PM-steels in some niches.

I think of it like this. In terms of price and world potential of steels it looks something like this. Starting with High price/low potential and the delivery condition in brackets, I also added what I believe is a suitable application:
- PM steels (plate) - Tools and components
- Tool steels (plate) - Tools
- Precision strip (Coil <400 mm wide) - razorblade, electronic components
- Narrow strip Coil (<900 mm wide) - heat exchangers
- Wide strip (1000-3000 mm wide) - Car bodies

There are different market depending on the of demands of the application. Ship plating and electronic components have very different demands. Whats fun with the knife industry is that at least 4 of these above are active here.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Jerker,

If it doesn't violate any non-disclosure clauses, could you please provide a list of manufacturers who use 12C27 or 12C27M in folding pocketknives? I know of EKA and Thiers-Issard, but whom else?

Many thanks,

Thom

P.S. Is there any way to 'sell' 13C26 to manufacturers of kitchen knives whom currently use 19C27? Only Aoki Hamono uses a grade similar to 13C26, but from a different corporation. :(
 
LaGuiole knives as well as many French manufacturers use Sandvic.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S.
French - Manu Laplace, Guy Vialis, J Mongin, Goyon Chazeau, Coutellier Chambriard, Thiers Issard, Rossignol Coutellerie, Le Monde du Couteau, Bastide Knives, Farol Seafaring Knives, Arbalete G David, Laguiole Le Fidele, Maurice Dubost, Le Guyane
Italian - Falcon, Viper Knives
 
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