SAR4 vs SAR5 vs SAR6

[RWT]

Does anyone have photos of a SAR4 in comparision SAR 5 and a SAR6? I am considering acquiring a SAR4 LE if possible. I love the handle of my SAR5 as whomever had it before me tweaked it by sanding off the edges. The SAR6 feels a little big for my intended purposes and I think the SAR4 may fall between the 2, so I may let both go and have one perfect knife. Opinions are appreciated. :thumbup:

 

[tobotech]

iirc, the sar4 handle is same as the sar6. I may be wrong though.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

sar4, sar6 and sar8 share the same handle.

 

[kurodrago]

If you don't have xxxxx (small) hands.....SAR5 all the way, much better for me SAR 4&6&8 they have a good handle for kitchen like knive:yawn:

 

[M67]

If you don't have small hands.....SAR5 all the way, much better for me SAR 4&6&8 they have a good handle for kitchen like knive:yawn:

Fixed that for you, remember, family forum

Anyway, I like the SAR 4 (it does have a lot of handle though). I'm not impressed with the SAR 6 (I was expecting a lot more out of it), and I've never held a SAR 5, they are kind of cool though.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

It's a hard comment to not post a scathing response to. It's not just in poor taste, it's also inaccurate because you need bigger burlier hands to handle the SAR4/6/8 handles as they are notably bigger.

I agree with jerry's response to the sar5 in generally as well as in regards to it's handle:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...l-and-a-long-story!!!!!?p=5505151#post5505151

and will also say, in my own opinion, that:
-the placement of the palm swell forces your hand to be an inch away from the edge
-the lack contouring in the handle makes the back end more likely to slip out when your grip is weakened from fatigue or slippery with oil, fat or plant matter
-the lack of scales at the index position when choking up makes it uncomfortable/less controlable over long periods of use
-the size of the handle+the palm swell+the lack of scale material at the index position all combine to throw the majority of weight behind the hand when choking up on it, making it much more likely to slip out of your hand (bringing the edge across your fingers) when your hand is weakened from fatigue.

I say these things regardless of hand strength and endurance, physical design does not change because of user qualification, nor does anyone have infinite hand endurance.

 

[kdstrick]

Ergonomics is such an extremely subjective matter. Hands come in all shapes and sizes.

For me, the accidental sar5 is simply amazing, while the sar 4, 6 , 8 just dont seem to fit my hand at all. I, therefore, don't like to desparage any knife design... but choose to only keep the one's that work for me. I'm just glad that Busse is so creative with their designs. Many makers settle on a handle pattern and tend to only do different blades.

Rest assured, you can find a Busse that works with your hand... for me, it's the SAR 5. The fact that it was an 'accident' just proves everyone makes mistakes. But when Jerry makes a mistake it's still brilliant.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

[youtube]Dy98Whb5dQo[/youtube]

I can feel the muscle memory of that knife wanting to slip backwards in my hand just from watching that video. what he does with his hand at 0:49 defines the problem with that knife to me, you have to put effort into shuffling the knife back up into a normal grip as it tries to fall backwards in your hand, and there isn't a whole lot to gain purchase on as you attempt it.

I don't want to be too disparaging on the knife, because it is 5" of edge with an INFI blade and a usable handle. It's just a knife that has an uphill battle, where if the issues present aren't issues for you, then you'll probably like it.

 

[kurodrago]

[youtube]Dy98Whb5dQo[/youtube]

I can feel the muscle memory of that knife wanting to slip backwards in my hand just from watching that video. what he does with his hand at 0:49 defines the problem with that knife to me, you have to put effort into shuffling the knife back up into a normal grip as it tries to fall backwards in your hand, and there isn't a whole lot to gain purchase on as you attempt it.

I don't want to be too disparaging on the knife, because it is 5" of edge with an INFI blade and a usable handle. It's just a knife that has an uphill battle, where if the issues present aren't issues for you, then you'll probably like it.

Your opinion is a waste of time & based on few small hands, not enough hands to make a General view!
My hands are twice your size & the problem is not there in my case!!
The truth is that, the SAR5 as a bit off balance issue. The handle is heavy,,,,,,,,,,,on mine I fix that too!
Truth SAR3
Truth SAR4
Truth SAR6
Truth SAR8
All of them, don't have a proper balance too! disagree? try it? or proof it!

P/S
The pic below was your SAR5, if that is perfection for you small hands? you have to explain a bit!?

 

[Last Visible Canary]

Your opinion is a waste of time & based on few small hands, not enough hands to make a General view!

In order for your hands to span the distance in the grip where the palm is centered on the rear palm swell your hand would have to be enormous. Larger hands will make this knife feel better, but it still has problems. This persons hand is centered so the palm swell is centered on his palm (ergonomically/anatomically correct), his hand is a full inch away from the edge in this grip:

Looking solely at the index finger and the way the handle scales are formed, this is what your index finger is grabbing when you choke up. The scales don't go far enough forward for your index to grip them - instead your grabbing open metal, something that fatigues the hand more over time. I've experienced this when working with wood in a 'choked up' position on gaurded choiled knives. (again, look just at the index finger as this is a custom shop modified handle - it is no longer representative of a normal factory sar5 overall handle shape, but the front position of the s curve on the scales is, which is what I'm trying to show with this image)

If you think my opinion is a waste of your time, I'm sorry it's not up to your standards.

My hands are twice your size & the problem is not there in my case!!
The truth is that, the SAR5 as a bit off balance issue. The handle is heavy,,,,,,,,,,,on mine I fix that too!
Truth SAR3
Truth SAR4
Truth SAR6
Truth SAR8
All of them, don't have a proper balance too! disagree? try it? or proof it!

I can't say for the SAR3, 6 or 8, though I'd be curious about the sar3 given how tiny it is. I can give an opinion on the SAR4:

Yes the SAR4's pommel is HUGE and it has a ton of weight in the handle. However, it has a lot of metal and handle slab in the ricasso area forward of the index finger. When you are in the choked up grip as shown in the image, it doesn't feel nearly as off balanced as the SAR5, where, when in the choked up grip, all of the full thickness metal and all of the handle slab is to the rear of your index finger. On the sar4 when the knife feels like it's going to slip backwards in your hand it is immediately bolstered by the gaurd. It feels safe. The sar5 doesn't in my hand.

P/S
The pic below was your SAR5, if that is perfection for you small hands? you have to explain a bit!?

The knife pictured has been heavily modified by the custom shop, and I have taken 1/2" off the pommel from that initial modification. It is in no way a representation of the sar5's original handle.

Though this is not the particular SAR5 I started out with before sending it to the custom shop, this is what all factory SAR5's look like:

This is what it looked like after the custom shop flattened the back of the pommel (reducing size and rearward weight) and contoured the finger swell (reducing size and rearward weight).

This is where I cut off 1/2" from the pommel, reducing rearward weight even more.

This is the final shape and scales seen in the pictures you posted. It feels nothing like the original knife, the balance point is at the index finger rather then at the ring finger when choked up. It's palm swell is located at the center of my palm when choked up, instead of at my pinky's metacarpel.

If you grip the unmodified sar5 so that your palm is centered on the palm swell and squeeze it for strength, you get a grip roughly like this (same grip as shown in the very first picture)

where for control you want your grip to be closer to your work, something akin to this

When I choke up on a knife for control, I want a full set of scales instead of a squared off peice of metal. I'd still prefer scales over even the nuclear meltdown treatment because it gives more hand more material to grip on, reducing the amount of fatigue over a long period of use.

This is all 'in my opinion', and based on how handle shape interacts with the anatomy of the hand. Not everyone has the same criteria for what feels safe and what doesn't, or what feels poorly balanced and what feels 'just right'. There are several people on the forums who love the sar5 from tip to pommel so 'my opinion' is in no way representative of all peoples.

The negative opinions I have of the sar5 are based on the unmodified factory set up. I love the sar5 as a platform for modification. It has enough handle and enough blade that you've got a lot to work with, and a price (sometimes as low as or lower then 250$) that can make it worth it.

 

[Skrapmetal]

Your opinion is a waste of time & based on few small hands, not enough hands to make a General view!

Settle down, tough guy. He's not making fun of your mother, he's offering his opinion on a knife. Just because you disagree doesn't make his opinion a waste of time. Infact, I'd rather read his thoughts on the matter than someone who just dismisses the problems of the SAR5 as an issue of the manliness of peoples' hand size.

 

[kurodrago]

This is all 'in my opinion', and based on how handle shape interacts with the anatomy of the hand.

Wrong again!

Correct sentence
This is all 'in my opinion', and based on how handle shape interacts with the anatomy of mine hand.

The outcome is based 100% on your opinion not fact!....based on your hands not my.
You can achieve the balance on that knife in many different ways.

Ho yeah baby... B.Jerry, knows that ya know & I know.....that if what you bouth doesn't feel right, you can send to the custom shop & if you don't like it still, you can sell anyway!
I wish that "the custom shop, was a bit more economical, cheap too. "Oh, and I hate Mora's.

 

[kdstrick]

Wrong again!

Correct sentence
This is all 'in my opinion', and based on how handle shape interacts with the anatomy of mine hand.

The outcome is based 100% on your opinion not fact!....based on your hands not my.
You can achieve the balance on that knife in many different ways.

Ho yeah baby... B.Jerry, knows that ya know & I know.....that if what you bouth doesn't feel right, you can send to the custom shop & if you don't like it still, you can sell anyway!
I wish that "the custom shop, was a bit more economical, cheap too. "Oh, and I hate Mora's.

But don't you realize that your posts are also only your opinion?

A wide variety of opinion is what makes bladeforums a cool place to come, chat, learn and laugh a bit. There is no such thing as right or wrong in matters of personal preference. Sit back, have a beverage and relax.

If all of us had the exact same preferences, we'd all be fighting over the same woman.

 

[BigLebowski65]

A lot of well thought out points LVC, as usual.
I just don’t like the looks of that customized SAR5. To me it looks like an unfinished prototype of some sorts, perhaps an intermediate step in the evolution of CABS line. I think you’ve turned this knife in to something that was already there among offerings from Busse.
To me the attraction of SAR5 is in the simplicity of its lines, and that it looks so different from the majority of Busses. Not to mention relatively low asking prices.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

This is a difficult thing to word clearly. I'm not saying that all hands are identical in size, I am however saying that all hands (that are normally formed) regardless of size work in a very specific way. The human form offsets the center of the arch formed by the fingers and the center of the arch formed by the palm by about 1/2". While this will change slightly with handsize, it will be by less then 1/8" of change. I don't know how large your hands are, lets say you wear size XXXL gloves. Get some clay or plato, and mold it into a 2" thick cylinder. Now gab that cyllinder and make a fist, squeezing slightly. Note where the center of the curve made by your palm is, and then note the where the center of the curve made by your fingers is (in between your middle and ring fingers). They will be about 1/2" apart.

This is anatomy. It only changes if there are injuries, genetic changes, or altered patterns of grown during the fetal stages. It is a sliding scale for hand size, but even when you take into account extreme sexual dimorphism in hand size the distance between the palms arch and the fingers arch will not drastically change as it relates to handles. The severity of the curve of the palm and finger swells is more likely to become a problem then the spacing of the two swells. The difference between 1/2" spacing and 3/8" spacing is not so much that I would expect them to have an issue.

This is the drawing (minus the text/lines I just added) I sent to garth to have my sar5 modified as seen in the pictures I posted. The second line drawing shows a correct anatomical spacing of finger arch and palm arch when in a chocked up grip, about 1/2" apart. The first lined drawing shows the too-far-apart spacing, in order to center you palms arch around the palm swell you have to use a choked back hand position like the one shown in my last post, putting an inch between your index finger and the edge. The bottom image is a photoshopped version of the top image, it does not exist in real life..

This is an example of a good placement between finger swell and palm swell. You can see that when I make a closed fist, the finger swell matches the center of my finger arch, and the palm swell matches the center of my palm arch. But if I choke down, now both swells are putting pressure solely on my index finger and index metacarpel, the curves no longer match up. When you offset the fingerswell and the palm swell to much like on the SAR5, the palm swell is sitting right on top of you pinky metacarpel in a choked up position.:

While spacing of the two swells can create problems of grip position and comfort when choked up (one of the reasons I never liked the active duty handles), the radius of the swell can also cause problems where it is putting too much pressure on the finger bones or the metacarpels/tendons/artery system of the palm.

These swells were too severe for my hand, I found that they hurt my finger bones and metacarpels when gripping it hard:

Where this handle has a longer radius for the finger swell, and a very long radius for the palm swell. When I grip this, it is a much more natural match up for the radius of the arch of my fingers and palm.

This can be a problem because of the bloodflow system to the hand. Note the curvature in the drawing of the fingers and where the center of it lines up with the center of the superficial palmar arch. They are about 1/2" or less apart.

Things I'm not saying:
-All handles have to be exactly like my sar5 in order to feel right in the hand
-Any handle that strays from the 1/2" seperation of finger and palm swell will feel terrible in every single hand that tries it
-All hands are identical in size
-All people experience a given item in an identical manner


Yes some people have larger hands, and yes some people will love handles that I hate. As far as swells that are too-severe, having a higher degree of hand musculature and thickening of palm skin helps to reduce the feeling of the swell pressing into your bones. The less muscle/calousing you have the more your going to feel a severe palm swell. This is what I'd call a variable design problem, your trying to fit as many hands as possible, some people will have an anatomy that does well with it and some won't.

But with finger to palm spacing, I would consider that a static problem that is there regardless of the persons musculature or thickness of skin. It is hand geometry that simply doesn't change for normal human hands. Some people won't find it an issue, but the problem will still be there. The sar5 wants you to grip it farther back just like the image above of the pumpkin orange and green sar5 because the palm curve sits properly in the palm in that position.

Sure, if you have hands the size of Bigfoot Silva your hand might cover the distance and have your finger press right up against the edge when your palm is centered on the palm swell of the SAR5 - but that would put you in a very, very small minority of humanity.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

A lot of well thought out points LVC, as usual.
I just don’t like the looks of that customized SAR5. To me it looks like an unfinished prototype of some sorts, perhaps an intermediate step in the evolution of CABS line. I think you’ve turned this knife in to something that was already there among offerings from Busse.
To me the attraction of SAR5 is in the simplicity of its lines, and that it looks so different from the majority of Busses. Not to mention relatively low asking prices.

I agree that it's a very blah design. I wasn't looking to make something that looked nice or flashy, just something that had a very particular set of features that (when put together) aren't commen in the busse lineup, specifically:
-gaurd
-choiless
-roughly 5" in length

Even though it does fit in with a lot of other knives of it's size like the urban grudge (which is SUCH a better looking design) - none of them are choiless with a guard. Only now with the introduction of the CABS and Boss Jack's has a standard model had all of those features.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

I just realized that in all of this, the op's request was never filled: here is a SAR5 handle next to a sar4. The SAR4 has the same handle as the 6 and 8.

from this thread:
http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/s...cs-BM-Spyderco-Busse-Family-Fallkniven-CS-etc
A shot that shows the SAR3, 4, 6 and 8 in line with each other to show that the handle size is identical on 4,6 and 8.

 

[RWT]

Is the model between the SAR 3 & 4 a CABS? If so I am leaning in that direction. I am looking for 1 knife to last forever. I have already broken at the handle a Kershaw fixed blade(unknown metal), the tip off my KA caper and have sharpened my Schrade sharpfiner to the point I am waiting for it to go. The sharpfinger has cleaned well over 100 deer, countless hogs, a nilgai and performed as a screwdriver when called upon. The benefits of friends with a high fenced ranch and a doe management program. If the model I referenced above will do 75% of the hard work a SAR 4, 5, or 6 will do but with a smaller blade I will chase it down. The CABS has been on my want list for a few months now and from what I see I may want to send it in for larger slabs. I really want to move towards one perfect knife for the rest of my life and and INFI appears to meet that need concerning the metal. Does anyone know of a member in or near Austin TX with a CABS that would be interested in a free enchillada plate in exchange for fondling his CABS? (man that sounds weird) I want to handle my next purchase before I pull the trigger as I am spending to much time buying a model that does not fit.

 

[high desert]

LVC, I have started in previous posts that I have medium to large hands. The Sar 5 was my first Busse. I could hold the factory grip ok but the taper drew my hand toward the blade. I did grind the handle to try to match my spyderco bushcraft and fun how close it looks to your mod. After my mod it was even better to hold and use but still drew my hand right up to the cutting edge. Having a handle that is comfortable in many gripping positions is more important to me than blade shape. Getting both is awesome. Your past advice/comparisons have been dead on in my opinion. Keep up the good work and thanks for taking the time to post related pics.

 

[kdstrick]

^^^^^ It is a CABS... and it is genius. I haven't used mine yet, but it will make a fine hunting blade. Over the past several years, I've used lots of infi on deer. I reprofile my edges a bit thinner than factory or convex them. After that, I can easily do more than five deer with no noticeable degradation in edge. Wish I could remember how many deer I did last year, but bourbon killed that brain cell. I haven't done pigs yet, but they are much harder on an edge due to the thick hair (covered in dry mud/sand) and thick hide. I'm eager to try some infi on one just to see how the edge holds up. I suspect it will do just fine...