Saw "Nail Busting" thread and that reminded me :What Knife for steel nail cutting

[Wowbagger]

Blade Dude,

Holly cripe dude. I feel bad. I’ve destroyed your knife. (well YOU destroyed your knife) but I’m not a good influence . . . I’m evil . . . I need to be controlled before things get out of hand . . .

Basically you want a cold chisel but as a knife?

Yes.

Is that too much to ask ?
I think NOT.

HA . . . HA . . . HA !
I must have this !

Shorttime,

S5 (as already mentioned) or S7. 5160 with the proper edge geometry. D2 and 52100 if the heat treat is done right and a bevel angle above 25 degrees (better make it 30, just to be sure).

This is one of those cases where heat treat and edge geometry really do make the difference.

Oh for sure ! Thanks for the education.
There are actually cases where I could use this in my work. I may be carving steel with it more than always hitting it with a hammer but still.
As it is I have a rat tail file that I ground the crap out of the broken off end into a fat knife edge and I go to town with that but I have to be too careful with it or I will break it again.
I am getting stoked about a pocket knife I can get really western with when I need it.
That video at Monkey Edge that I watched was enlightening.
Yah . . . a railroad spike, with a folding handle, with the characteristics of a concrete nail, with a ground edge on it !
What’s not to like ? ? ? ?

DPC,

Well thanks for the kind suggestion.
It is not so much I need to cut nails or wire as I need something that is able to carve or cut through steel and be ho hum about it.

UPDATE:
Please, for the love of God !
Stop this madness before some one is injured or killed.
WHAT WAS I THINKING !
Apparently this is the impossible dream

UNLESS one uses a Buck knife and then probably it only works on Thursdays. I could never get the hang of Thursdays . . .

See bellow :
Granted I didn’t sharpen the chisels special for this test. They looked perfectly usable; sharp enough; no dings in the edges. I can’t say that for the way they tend to be when brand new out of the factory packaging but that is a rant for another time.

I put the block of aluminum on a stump that I have sitting on the floor in the shop. I set up the nail across it and with the larger of the two chisels (shown in the photo) in place; I whompped it pretty good with the mini sledge. After two or three licks it shot across the floor and I thought I had cut it.
Nope.
just got off center and pinched out from under the edge.
I did that a few times in different places as you can see along the nail.

I was sure with the medium blows this would cut it but it didn’t.
I got the smaller, shallower edged, slightly sharper chisel and went again a couple of times.
Same exact result but the smaller chisel was kind of vibrating and flexing and feeling not quite up to the task.

Then I put the nail right on a square of steel that is welded to the end of a vertical leg of steam pipe that I mount vises on and had another go.
Same result; after two or three pretty heavy blows it cut part way; shot out from under; not cut through.

In the photo you can see some of the other tools I use to “carve” steel and other metal. The broken files and the triangular deburing tool and the swivel deburing tool. The rat tail file that I sharpened is at work along with duplicates of these others.

So . . . I am going to aim for a knife for carving (deburing) mild steel and give up the nail cutting.
Tough as nails they say. Guess that has some basis in fact.

JR88FAN,
you were RIGHT : stick to diagonal cutters.
Roger THAT !

 

[Wowbagger]

NJBillK,

Take a look here at Nathan the Machinist

Well that cinches it; the bevel needs to be at least 20° 40°inclusive. but not too much more.
The vid is cool stuff by the way. Thank You !

[I need to get a bigger hammer]

 

[NJBillK]

I do want people to understand I'm not making thick prybars, the knives I make are reasonably thin and designed to cut. The knives in that video are sharpened 18 degrees per side, which is more acute than many people sharpen their kitchen knives, so that's far from being a cold chisel.

The test blade in that video was Scandi and didn't have a primary grind, which can skew results, so I duplicated the test with a normal knife blade with a conventional flat grind, also 18 DPS

The picture on top is the one made for the video, the picture on the bottom was duplicated on a regular thin flat ground blade:

Understand, I'm not taking on Infi, I'm optimizing 3V. And, in those pictures you can see the difference it makes. Both 3V blades are 18 DPS and tested HRC 60-61, my modified 3V is more durable in thin sections than the industry standard. The nail is a 16D framing nail, with is .150" work hardened wire. That's not the only test, but it is the most dramatic.

That fact that the edge durability is comparable to Infi is a nice accomplishment because Infi is a good performer in that sort of rough use.

Feel free to post any of this information if you like.

Thanks,
Nathan

That was Nathans reply to my PM.

 

[deltaboy]

My Glock Army Knife will.

 

[BITEME]

Hey C.Mike love your booze fighter,can you post a pic when your done-thanks,Gabe

 

[blade dude]

Blade Dude,

Holly cripe dude. I feel bad. I’ve destroyed your knife. (well YOU destroyed your knife) but I’m not a good influence . . . I’m evil . . . I need to be controlled before things get out of hand . . .


Yes.

Is that too much to ask ?
I think NOT.

HA . . . HA . . . HA !
I must have this !

Shorttime,


Oh for sure ! Thanks for the education.
There are actually cases where I could use this in my work. I may be carving steel with it more than always hitting it with a hammer but still.
As it is I have a rat tail file that I ground the crap out of the broken off end into a fat knife edge and I go to town with that but I have to be too careful with it or I will break it again.
I am getting stoked about a pocket knife I can get really western with when I need it.
That video at Monkey Edge that I watched was enlightening.
Yah . . . a railroad spike, with a folding handle, with the characteristics of a concrete nail, with a ground edge on it !
What’s not to like ? ? ? ?

DPC,

Well thanks for the kind suggestion.
It is not so much I need to cut nails or wire as I need something that is able to carve or cut through steel and be ho hum about it.

UPDATE:
Please, for the love of God !
Stop this madness before some one is injured or killed.
WHAT WAS I THINKING !
Apparently this is the impossible dream

UNLESS one uses a Buck knife and then probably it only works on Thursdays. I could never get the hang of Thursdays . . .

See bellow :
Granted I didn’t sharpen the chisels special for this test. They looked perfectly usable; sharp enough; no dings in the edges. I can’t say that for the way they tend to be when brand new out of the factory packaging but that is a rant for another time.

I put the block of aluminum on a stump that I have sitting on the floor in the shop. I set up the nail across it and with the larger of the two chisels (shown in the photo) in place; I whompped it pretty good with the mini sledge. After two or three licks it shot across the floor and I thought I had cut it.
Nope.
just got off center and pinched out from under the edge.
I did that a few times in different places as you can see along the nail.

I was sure with the medium blows this would cut it but it didn’t.
I got the smaller, shallower edged, slightly sharper chisel and went again a couple of times.
Same exact result but the smaller chisel was kind of vibrating and flexing and feeling not quite up to the task.

Then I put the nail right on a square of steel that is welded to the end of a vertical leg of steam pipe that I mount vises on and had another go.
Same result; after two or three pretty heavy blows it cut part way; shot out from under; not cut through.

In the photo you can see some of the other tools I use to “carve” steel and other metal. The broken files and the triangular deburing tool and the swivel deburing tool. The rat tail file that I sharpened is at work along with duplicates of these others.

So . . . I am going to aim for a knife for carving (deburing) mild steel and give up the nail cutting.
Tough as nails they say. Guess that has some basis in fact.

JR88FAN,
you were RIGHT : stick to diagonal cutters.
Roger THAT !

This thread destroyed the half a blade I had left. I had a broken stop pin so I glued a piece of brass rod in there and it broke too. Here's how I broke blade. I was bored and was gonna throw it away. Instead batanned through wood with it and an 8 pound sledgehammer. And on the side of a log not splitting down top. Made it through few logs fine then got stuck in one and I hit it even harder and crack

 

[Charlie Mike]

Hey C.Mike love your booze fighter,can you post a pic when your done-thanks,Gabe

Going to heat treat tomorrow.

 

[Wowbagger]

"Pretty" is probably not the generally expected term to use for a knife like that but . . .
that is one pretty grind you got on there ! ! ! !

 

[Charlie Mike]

"Pretty" is probably not the generally expected term to use for a knife like that but . . .
that is one pretty grind you got on there ! ! ! !

Thanks, looks like I'll never get to find out if it's a nail buster... Someone just purchased it this morning.

 

[Wowbagger]

Someone just purchased it this morning.

EXCELLENT !

Nail busting is over rated anyway. Look how long I have lived and never busted a single nail (with a knife).

 

[Wowbagger]

Get the thickest Cold Steel and put a new edge on it

What is the general consensus about Cold Steel's heat treat on their CPM-3V ?

Looking at carving (knocking raggedy aced steel burs off stuff) rather than slamming the knife through a nail (now that I found out I would need a full on sledge (not a mini sledge) to do it) . . . I am considering . . . as a starting point in this mad exploration . . .

I am thinking of getting a Cold Steel Mini Hunter in the new version with the 3V and modding the heck out of that. I may go as short as the Morakniv Electrician and or go a bit longer and add an edge on the cut off square end like the Morakniv "Carpentry Chisel" knife.

I realize the Pendleton Hunter is significantly thicker than the Mini but thinking the 3mm blade (as apposed to 5mm) is going to be enough.

Bonkers I know but I would use the heck out of it and I like the handle on the Hunter. I would be pushing the chisel end with my hands not banging on the end of the handle with a hammer.
(Too often )
I WOULD bang on the spine with a small hammer though. I think that is realistic.

I love that Strider. It's definitely more realistic, but out of my price range (at the moment). You should have never shown me that; now I want one.

 

[tiguy7]

The Buck knives that were originally used by salesmen to do the nail chop demonstration were made of properly heat treated 440-C.

 

[Wowbagger]

used by salesmen to do the nail chop demonstration

You mean they ACTUALLY did that on a regular basis as their "shpeel" ?

I bet they brought their own "nails".
That would still be pretty awesome though.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

You can easily cut 16D (0.164" dia) nail by a knife edge with edge geometry 0.02+ behind edge thick and 17+dps. I've done this many times using many steels, here is a just-shot-for-fun video (~2 minutes length)
[video]https://youtu.be/YyXPz3aDQVk[/video]

 

[Wowbagger]

Bluntcut,

You can easily cut 16D (0.164" dia) nail by a knife edge with edge geometry 0.02+ behind edge thick and 17+dps. I've done this many times using many steels, here is a just-shot-for-fun video

YES !
I see.
THANK YOU
Hmmmmm
Makes that other vid of Nathan the Machinist seem overly dramatic.

PS: I guess since he was only hitting a couple of hits it was demonstrating high impact toughness.

 

[Armadew]

Going to heat treat tomorrow.

Best one yet! Really nice CM.

 

[rustyrazor]

The Buck knives that were originally used by salesmen to do the nail chop demonstration were made of properly heat treated 440-C.

when I was working with some us spec ops guys they were interested in my personal carry knife that I had made and bought with me on tour. one of them was a knife "expert" and told a few of them not to buy one because it wasn't tough enough because it was "only 440c" so I grabbed a nail from the workbench and hammered through it, then proceeded to cut a .50cal ammo can in half with it... not saying 440c is the ideal steel for this application and there are way tougher steels, but what most steel snobs just can't get through their head is that the MOST important part of any knife in regards to performance comes down to geometry and heat treat. I have moved away from 440c on my "tactical" knives over the years in favor of "better" steels... however, I have ZERO problems with it and would never turn a good knife down because of it, but people just don't buy 440c anymore since it's not new and sexy.

caveat: that knife was 1/4" at the spine and left thick at the edge to take abuse... I'm 100% positive you could have an elmax blade ground way thicker and still do it and something like 3V way thinner still (all depending on the heat treat) just my 2C

 

[Twindog]

You can easily cut 16D (0.164" dia) nail by a knife edge with edge geometry 0.02+ behind edge thick and 17+dps. I've done this many times using many steels, here is a just-shot-for-fun video (~2 minutes length)
[video]https://youtu.be/YyXPz3aDQVk[/video]

That's a cool video -- chopping up a 16D nail into small pieces using a test blade of AEB-L steel.

Heat treat is really the key, but it's so difficult for the consumer to know anything about the heat treat of the knife he buys. So we have to talk about the steel or blade geometry, because that's all we know.

 

[rustyrazor]

That's a cool video -- chopping up a 16D nail into small pieces using a test blade of AEB-L steel.

Heat treat is really the key, but it's so difficult for the consumer to know anything about the heat treat of the knife he buys. So we have to talk about the steel or blade geometry, because that's all we know.

soooooo true... I'm convinced that poor heat treats over the years have been responsible for more than one blade steel being shunned. it's the one thing you can't see looking at a blade and a poorly treated super steel blade is far worse than a perfectly heat treated "low end" steel any day.

 

[Wowbagger]

rustyrazor,

the MOST important part of any knife in regards to performance comes down to geometry and heat treat.

I totally agree. No doubt about either one of those.

440c . . .it's not new and sexy.

people just don't buy 440c anymore

I am not disagreeing but I just bought my first 440C in the last month or two.
I like the "feel" of it. When using and when sharpening. Looks good; a bit more "nickel" colored than some other blades. I can't explain those better than that but that inexpensive Ti Boker feels really natural in the hand in use too.



I probably won't even try to cut any nails with it though . . . ha, ha, ha.