Scandi grind but *Edit* Shoulder getting scratched

Once you have flattened the bevel, you can use sand paper to help fix the polish. Starting at the grit where the deepest scratch occurred and moving up in small increments until you have a polish that you are content with.

If the bevel was properly flat, and your technique is good, you would not have as much scratching on the shoulder. Practice makes perfect when using bench stones. Keep in mind as you move up in grit, you'll also have a finer edge that'll shave and carve better. Coarser grits make a toothier edge which are nicer for cutting things like animal hide, cordage, cardboard etc.
 
Agith said:
Once you have flattened the bevel, you can use sand paper to help fix the polish. Starting at the grit where the deepest scratch occurred and moving up in small increments until you have a polish that you are content with.

If the bevel was properly flat, and your technique is good, you would not have as much scratching on the shoulder. Practice makes perfect when using bench stones. Keep in mind as you move up in grit, you'll also have a finer edge that'll shave and carve better. Coarser grits make a toothier edge which are nicer for cutting things like animal hide, cordage, cardboard etc.
Click to expand...

Thanks Agith, that makes a lot of sense.

Thank you.
 
Here's an image to help you better visualize the issue:

ezZVQPy.jpg


As has been mentioned, based on your scratch pattern the blade is not currently a true scandi grind.

In the diagram, if you put the hollow grind on a flat stone, you'd see the scratch pattern that you're getting on your blade. If it was a true scandi right now, the entire area between the bevel and shoulder would be scratched at the same rate. Your stone isn't touching anything besides the bevel and shoulder, thus hollow grind.

If you want a scandi for some reason, then you'd have to keep grinding away metal until the hollow is removed. If you don't care about a scandi, just sharpen it as if it were a hollow or flat grind, and put a bevel/micro bevel on it.

What I would do is sand down the entire blade to a consistent scratch pattern, then acid stonewash.

*edit for grammar*
 
BJ587 said:
Hi Robert,

I bolded the part of your message-thats exactly the bit which concerns me. But as this bit is in contact on a scandi when sharpening by the guides, by hand (which is what I will be doing) I don't see a way around it unless I increase the angle which I seemingly shouldnt be doing because it's easy to find on a scandi
Click to expand...

There is no way around it. Unless you have a holding jig for the blade, you won't get it perfect. And as noted, it looks like the grind is slightly hollow... it only takes a couple of thousandths to make enough dip to give you the results you have. Seriously, if this is a working knife, you are in good shape! Get that bad boy sharp and get it out in the field.

By sharpening the bevel the way you are now, you are making a complex edge, one I enjoyed on my better kitchen knives years ago. You have a combination of a hollow grind with a secondary bevel that gets a little metal behind the cutting edge. To make sure you understand the nomenclature and the names of the edge sharpening styles, roll down this page:

http://www.imadeaknife.com/articles/the-only-article-about-knife-grinds-youll-ever-need/

You will even see a profile of a "scandi" or "sabre" that has the secondary bevel on it. (About 40 years ago, we were all obsessed with the "secondary bevel", and I still do it.) To see more examples of knife edge profiles, just search "knife bevels" then click on "images" when the results come up.

You will see that the difference between a "sabre" grind and a "scandi" is in the eye of he beholder, both being working knife edges. I have had several of each, and without exception I wind up with the same scratch pattern you have since I want to match the high factory grind as much as possible. The reason Scandi ground knives are good slicers are because the grind is usually on a thin blade. The reason the same grind aka a sabre is not a good slicer on a work knife is because usually the blade is much thicker so the edge is ground more obtuse. In either case, unless you use a guided system and grind away to match the original grind exactly, you will not match the edge profile from the factory.

I can easily sharpen on a whetstone because when I was a nipper, that's all we had. But it is a skill to sharpen on them, one that can take a lot of practice to master. I have put several of my friends on to the Lansky system and they can get pretty good edges fast with the system. Their are plenty of good guided systems out there now, and no doubt someone will come along and recommend a $400 - $500 system as their favorite. Good systems, but not needed. If you are just starting the trip of exploring fine edges on knives, you might try several techniques and pieces of equipment before you decide on your final system. I find the simpler, the better.

I have four that I use depending on the knife. For my heavy work knives (I am in construction), I use the Lansky to bevel the edge where I want it. I touch up as needed with a 1200gr diamond rod. If the knife edge is damaged (happens on work knives), then I set up the Lansky with coarse stones as needed to work out the damage. It if it a tiny chip or distortion on the very edge itself, I ignore it as I might do the same thing the next day on the job site.

My long blades go to the powered Work Sharp system, which is easy and quick to use. So setting an edge, repairing an edge, and even sharpening is a breeze on this system. I also use it to sharpen knives for a professional kitchen as well as a food distributor to pick up some extra money. Both wreck their knives religiously, and the powered system fixes them easily.

I carry a traditional knife of some sort along with my work knives. They get the Lansky treatment up front, but never see it again. I bevel to my satisfaction, then either strop or touch up with my 1200gr rod as needed.

Sharpening isn't brain surgery, but it does take some practice. Personally, I don't need the super fine edges that so many here need. If I hit a hidden staple or nail on the job with a foil thin edge, it truly damages that knife blade and takes too long to repair it. 1200 grit is my stop point (except on my folding traditionals) when sharpening as I find that it serves my cutting and maintenance expectations well. Some of the steels serve better than others at this grit, but after years of experimenting on rainy days this works for me. I think you will find (if you are using your knives constantly) that certain steels work better when sharpened to different grits, but once you get the hang of it, you will be able to sharpen just about any knife and any steel.

Robert
 
From your image, I'd say you started with a much too coarse grit. You don't need to remove metal, you just want to maintain the original edge (yes, I know, the original edge is crap most of the time, but start there). Use a fine stone (and not a small one... use a stone that lets you hold down flat at least half the length of the blade). Don't weigh down (just lightly)... push forward while maintaining the contact of the whole bevel, ease when pulling backward. Work slowly... it's a job of patience. 3 to 4 draws on each side at a time. Now look at your blade : you should see where your stone has worked the blade and you will be able to correct accordingly, or keep on just the same. You can color the bevel with a Sharpie and this will show evidently where you are actually hitting the steel. And by the way, the bevel being slightly hollow is a non issue : the result at the cutting edge is important (and there will be an erosion mark at the shoulder, of course. But it's a knife and you want it to cut, you don't want to carry it as a jewel).
 
Kbrasmodeler said:
B BJ587
It looks to me like your scandi grind is slightly hollow. It was possibly ground in with a wheel, leaving it concave. So, what happens is you are grinding the edge, and the shoulder, and not in between, because your stones are flat. This will continue until the whole bevel is flat. It shouldn't be a problem, but if you don't like the way it looks, keep grinding until the whole bevel looks the same.
Click to expand...

Ding. Nailed it.
 
Pendexter said:
Here's an image to help you better visualize the issue:

ezZVQPy.jpg


As has been mentioned, based on your scratch pattern the blade is not currently a true scandi grind.

In the diagram, if you put the hollow grind on a flat stone, you'd see the scratch pattern that you're getting on your blade. If it was a true scandi right now, the entire area between the bevel and shoulder would be scratched at the same rate. Your stone isn't touching anything besides the bevel and shoulder, thus hollow grind.

If you want a scandi for some reason, then you'd have to keep grinding away metal until the hollow is removed. If you don't care about a scandi, just sharpen it as if it were a hollow or flat grind, and put a bevel/micro bevel on it.

What I would do is sand down the entire blade to a consistent scratch pattern, then acid stonewash.

*edit for grammar*
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for this-definately makes it easier to see how it could have happened. It's definately a scandi grind, but like people have mentioned I think it was slightly hollow. Makes a lot more sense. Thank you Pendexter.

midnight flyer said:
There is no way around it. Unless you have a holding jig for the blade, you won't get it perfect. And as noted, it looks like the grind is slightly hollow... it only takes a couple of thousandths to make enough dip to give you the results you have. Seriously, if this is a working knife, you are in good shape! Get that bad boy sharp and get it out in the field.

By sharpening the bevel the way you are now, you are making a complex edge, one I enjoyed on my better kitchen knives years ago. You have a combination of a hollow grind with a secondary bevel that gets a little metal behind the cutting edge. To make sure you understand the nomenclature and the names of the edge sharpening styles, roll down this page:

http://www.imadeaknife.com/articles/the-only-article-about-knife-grinds-youll-ever-need/

You will even see a profile of a "scandi" or "sabre" that has the secondary bevel on it. (About 40 years ago, we were all obsessed with the "secondary bevel", and I still do it.) To see more examples of knife edge profiles, just search "knife bevels" then click on "images" when the results come up.

You will see that the difference between a "sabre" grind and a "scandi" is in the eye of he beholder, both being working knife edges. I have had several of each, and without exception I wind up with the same scratch pattern you have since I want to match the high factory grind as much as possible. The reason Scandi ground knives are good slicers are because the grind is usually on a thin blade. The reason the same grind aka a sabre is not a good slicer on a work knife is because usually the blade is much thicker so the edge is ground more obtuse. In either case, unless you use a guided system and grind away to match the original grind exactly, you will not match the edge profile from the factory.

I can easily sharpen on a whetstone because when I was a nipper, that's all we had. But it is a skill to sharpen on them, one that can take a lot of practice to master. I have put several of my friends on to the Lansky system and they can get pretty good edges fast with the system. Their are plenty of good guided systems out there now, and no doubt someone will come along and recommend a $400 - $500 system as their favorite. Good systems, but not needed. If you are just starting the trip of exploring fine edges on knives, you might try several techniques and pieces of equipment before you decide on your final system. I find the simpler, the better.

I have four that I use depending on the knife. For my heavy work knives (I am in construction), I use the Lansky to bevel the edge where I want it. I touch up as needed with a 1200gr diamond rod. If the knife edge is damaged (happens on work knives), then I set up the Lansky with coarse stones as needed to work out the damage. It if it a tiny chip or distortion on the very edge itself, I ignore it as I might do the same thing the next day on the job site.

My long blades go to the powered Work Sharp system, which is easy and quick to use. So setting an edge, repairing an edge, and even sharpening is a breeze on this system. I also use it to sharpen knives for a professional kitchen as well as a food distributor to pick up some extra money. Both wreck their knives religiously, and the powered system fixes them easily.

I carry a traditional knife of some sort along with my work knives. They get the Lansky treatment up front, but never see it again. I bevel to my satisfaction, then either strop or touch up with my 1200gr rod as needed.

Sharpening isn't brain surgery, but it does take some practice. Personally, I don't need the super fine edges that so many here need. If I hit a hidden staple or nail on the job with a foil thin edge, it truly damages that knife blade and takes too long to repair it. 1200 grit is my stop point (except on my folding traditionals) when sharpening as I find that it serves my cutting and maintenance expectations well. Some of the steels serve better than others at this grit, but after years of experimenting on rainy days this works for me. I think you will find (if you are using your knives constantly) that certain steels work better when sharpened to different grits, but once you get the hang of it, you will be able to sharpen just about any knife and any steel.

Robert
Click to expand...

Thanks Robert for all of this, a really interesting read. I want to learn to use whetstones etc and traditional techniques, it's just a preference even if it takes practice, most things in life worthwhile do. You almost make it sound as if I know what I was doing ha, making a complex edge and all. It's Interesting that on your scandis (?) you have the shoulder pattern same as me, do you think then it's inevitable to some degree even without a concave, that you will get this the shoulder on a true scandi just due to the way it is sharpened and how the bevel is?

herisson said:
From your image, I'd say you started with a much too coarse grit. You don't need to remove metal, you just want to maintain the original edge (yes, I know, the original edge is crap most of the time, but start there). Use a fine stone (and not a small one... use a stone that lets you hold down flat at least half the length of the blade). Don't weigh down (just lightly)... push forward while maintaining the contact of the whole bevel, ease when pulling backward. Work slowly... it's a job of patience. 3 to 4 draws on each side at a time. Now look at your blade : you should see where your stone has worked the blade and you will be able to correct accordingly, or keep on just the same. You can color the bevel with a Sharpie and this will show evidently where you are actually hitting the steel. And by the way, the bevel being slightly hollow is a non issue : the result at the cutting edge is important (and there will be an erosion mark at the shoulder, of course. But it's a knife and you want it to cut, you don't want to carry it as a jewel).
Click to expand...

Yes that may be true. I followed instructions but there isn't substitute for knowledge and experience. And the knife cuts just fine, will be a working knife anyway. I used a diamond field kind of sharpener, no more than 2cm wide so probably not the best or easiest to use, though I did not rush at all.
 
My advice is to just keep sharpening as needed and let the hollow bevel flatten out over time instead of trying to take it to flat. That would remove a lot of material for no really good reason. Use it, sharpen it and enjoy it, though the suggestion of getting and using a finer stone is a very good one. The one you're using looks to be in the grit range that I mostly use for fully reprofiling an edge before I move to finer stones to refine the edge.
 
hexenjager said:
My advice is to just keep sharpening as needed and let the hollow bevel flatten out over time instead of trying to take it to flat. That would remove a lot of material for no really good reason. Use it, sharpen it and enjoy it, though the suggestion of getting and using a finer stone is a very good one. The one you're using looks to be in the grit range that I mostly use for fully reprofiling an edge before I move to finer stones to refine the edge.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the plan. Thanks for the information about the grit, that makes sense.
 
A question for everyone if okay:

Even if a Scandi grind was perfect and not concaved, and you had perfect technique, would you still have *some* scratching/wear From sharpening on the shoulder (red line in my link) https://imgur.com/a/x0s5Aak simply due to the nature of how you sharpen a Scandi? (using stones/ by hand, realistically).
 
BJ587 said:
A question for everyone if okay:

Even if a Scandi grind was perfect and not concaved, and you had perfect technique, would you still have *some* scratching/wear From sharpening on the shoulder (red line in my link) https://imgur.com/a/x0s5Aak simply due to the nature of how you sharpen a Scandi? (using stones/ by hand, realistically).
Click to expand...

Short answer, yes. There will always be wear on the area of the knife that you sharpen. Sharpening is, after all, a controlled wearing away of steel. Keep in mind though that with a finer stone and good technique the wear will only look hazier than the fine polish of the flats as opposed to looking scratched from a coarse stone.
 
Sorry if I am off the mark here but based on what is circled in red wouldn't some masking tape on the blade keep it from getting scratched?

If I am ignorant on this subject I do apologize
 
hexenjager said:
Short answer, yes. There will always be wear on the area of the knife that you sharpen. Sharpening is, after all, a controlled wearing away of steel. Keep in mind though that with a finer stone and good technique the wear will only look hazier than the fine polish of the flats as opposed to looking scratched from a coarse stone.
Click to expand...

Thanks hexenjager. It was just to confirm whether the shoulder gets sharpened even on a perfect Scandi with no ''defections' (because it seems the shoulder rests on the stone etc to produce the correct angle). I was going to say I'm sure the effect becomes less once you work up to polish stone.
Thanks.
 
ponykid said:
Sorry if I am off the mark here but based on what is circled in red wouldn't some masking tape on the blade keep it from getting scratched?

If I am ignorant on this subject I do apologize
Click to expand...

It would, but on a scandi grind you probably don't want it to. It's a single bevel all the way from the flat to the edge, like a disposable utility knife blade. If you keep removing material from the edge but not the shoulder, over time the geometry gets less and less acute and it gets less "slicey", plus once you put a secondary bevel on a scandi grind, it really becomes a saber grind. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing unless you're going with the scandi because the wide edge grind makes it easier to hold the correct angle on the stone as it sounds like is the case with the op.
 
I let go off the tape stuff exactly for that reason... Come on guys, take some risk ! Consider your "messing up" a valuable lesson. Correct accordingly. And of course, start with your cheapos not the "precioussss". I face that problem because I have a high end japanese filleter which doesn't cut so amazingly any longer. I will have to sharpen it... Shiver ! I will start on a 8000 grit stone, can't do much damage, normally. If I am neat, I will order the 12000 grit stone to finish it off nicely. Silly, I know, but hey it's the greatest fun I had in years. Precision is a kick...
 
BJ587, follow along with "hexenjager's" posts. To no need for a repeat from me, I think he nailed it.

Sharpening by hand with no guides is a skill, no doubt about it. But... once you "get it", no blade is safe! None will be too large or too small, you will scoff at heavily recurved blades, and you will discover you can sharpen confidently on all kinds of different materials.

About 40 years ago I was working for a company that built fast food restaurants. I charged many a beer for putting edges on knives using sandpaper! Think about it; start with 180 grit, move to 220gr, then 320, then 600. That did it for most. But for hunting knives I would finish with 1000gr wet,/dry paper that put a shaving edge on some of the knives. (1000gr meant extra suds...!)

Take the knives you have get to work on it. Some folks get the hang of hand sharpening pretty easily but most won't put the time in yo develop the skill. Good luck!

Robert
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top