Scandi grind dissapointment - what am i missing here?

retzius

retzius

Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
1,102
Hi all.

I have been trying all my knives out in the kitchen for the last few week to see how they cut different kinds of food etc. I have had some really interesting results which I will summarize once I have all the information compiled. Yesterday I had a really surprising experience though..

I busted out my Mora Triflex to process some potatos, carrots, apples etc thinking that the scandi would slice these like crazy since it bites wood so well. Much to my surprise it was HORRIBLE! When cutting an apple I had to practically pry and break the thing apart. :confused:

This was a shock to me. I have always heard that the thin scandi grind is favored by many because it slices and cuts so well. It does great on wood and sticks just fine but it just stinks in the kitchen.

How can my Mini-griptilian cut an apple so much better than my Mora? Whats going on here? :confused:
 
It does NOT slice well unless it's on VERY thin stock. The grind is not a slicer. It's a carver. :)
 
After the initial " V" of the scandi grind enters a thick object , the blade binds on the sharp shoulders of the upper flat stock of the blade.
This is one of the reasons I don't like scandi's for a general purpose knife.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
It does NOT slice well unless it's on VERY thin stock. The grind is not a slicer. It's a carver. :)
Click to expand...

Exactly. It bites wood very well and offers a ton of control while carving but is not the best when the entire blade must pass through the material. A true full scandi grind on thin stock (think caly3 but with no secondary bevel) would be an excellent slicer.
 
hiwa said:
After the initial " V" of the scandi grind enters a thick object , the blade binds on the sharp shoulders of the upper flat stock of the blade.
This is one of the reasons I don't like scandi's for a general purpose knife.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That makes sense. I guess with all the scandi-love I see I just figured it would be a good general purpose grind. I was sure wrong. I just didnt think it was SUCH a specialized bushcrafting grind. Lesson learned.
 
I wouldn't exactly say you were wrong ; I just found in my experience using other grinds like convex and certain flat-grinds performed better for me on a wider variety of objects than scandi grinds.

I'm sure there are a ton of bushcrafters and Mora owners that would dissagree with me , but that has been my experience with them so far.
 
I just received a Mora Bushcraft forest, and had the same thing happen with the factory edge. My other all around Mora that wears my edge is another story though. Stropping really bring the edge out. Problem is, if you thin the edge to much, it's not gonna be good for anything but slicing tomatoes.
 
My favorite apple knife so far is the Spyderco Delica. It cuts clean and leaves no carbon steel aftertaste!
 
Scandi knives, from my experience, are no good for slicing. Go and get you a convex edge knife. if you get a convex from someone who knows what theyre doing, say Bark River, then you will be blown away on how good of a slicer it is. I had a Fiddleback Forge Bushcrafter in convex. that thing was a wicked slicer. it was incredible slicing through food and wood.
 
Convex vs. V edge is largely irrelevant in this case. Overall sectional geometry and volume play the biggest role. For food prep thinner is better, and a full flat grind generally provides the best function. Victorinox paring knives are a great example of this. Opinels do a very nice job as well, and feature full convex grinds. Knives with a large sectional volume like, say, an ESEE-5 will never ever slice a carrot cleanly in stock configuration. :)
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Convex vs. V edge is largely irrelevant in this case. Overall sectional geometry and volume play the biggest role. For food prep thinner is better, and a full flat grind generally provides the best function. Victorinox paring knives are a great example of this. Opinels do a very nice job as well, and feature full convex grinds. Knives with a large sectional volume like, say, an ESEE-5 will never ever slice a carrot cleanly in stock configuration. :)
Click to expand...

Oops.... :D i dont know anything about blade geometry.
 
retzius said:
Hi all.

I have been trying all my knives out in the kitchen for the last few week to see how they cut different kinds of food etc. I have had some really interesting results which I will summarize once I have all the information compiled. Yesterday I had a really surprising experience though..

I busted out my Mora Triflex to process some potatos, carrots, apples etc thinking that the scandi would slice these like crazy since it bites wood so well. Much to my surprise it was HORRIBLE! When cutting an apple I had to practically pry and break the thing apart. :confused:

This was a shock to me. I have always heard that the thin scandi grind is favored by many because it slices and cuts so well. It does great on wood and sticks just fine but it just stinks in the kitchen.

How can my Mini-griptilian cut an apple so much better than my Mora? Whats going on here? :confused:
Click to expand...




Depending on hearsay instead of experience often leads to these situations.








Big Mike
 
Basically a knife being convex or not has little to do with the matter. You can have a super thick convex that cuts like crap, or a super thin one that cuts like a laser. The problem is that when cutting anything is that you have to displace the matter the blade passes through. Thus a greater wedging effect occurs with thicker blades, which is great if you're trying to SPLIT something...but if you're trying to SLICE something it sucks! You want all of your energy going into the depth of cut, not being lost to pushing the cutting medium out of the way. :)
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Basically a knife being convex or not has little to do with the matter. You can have a super thick convex that cuts like crap, or a super thin one that cuts like a laser. The problem is that when cutting anything is that you have to displace the matter the blade passes through. Thus a greater wedging effect occurs with thicker blades, which is great if you're trying to SPLIT something...but if you're trying to SLICE something it sucks! You want all of your energy going into the depth of cut, not being lost to pushing the cutting medium out of the way. :)
Click to expand...




What 40-2-blades is trying to say is thin is in.


And when it come to slicing, IT IS.


Geometry still rules, it's a law of nature.







Big Mike
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
It does NOT slice well unless it's on VERY thin stock. The grind is not a slicer. It's a carver. :)
Click to expand...

Very true. There is a misunderstanding about the "scandi" grind. It's not a slicer, it's a chisel, a specialised tool for wood carving and it works very well for that purpose. It's a grind which take advantages of the bevels as a guide and as a wedge. The very edge doesn't work so much, the bevels deviate the wood fibers and the shoulders give a leverage point for a good leading control of the blade.

FortyTwoBlades said:
Overall sectional geometry and volume play the biggest role.
Click to expand...

For a slicer yes, the amount of steel and how this amount is distributed in the blade cross section will be the performance factors, and thinner the stock less will be the resistance of the media to the cutting.
But for a "scandi" grind used to carve wood the thickness of the stock is a less important factor. As long as the blade is stiff enough.

All this to say that cutting an apple with a Mora is like carving wood with a paring knife. Not the best choice.

dantzk.
 
If you want a treat, go find an EKA Swede 92 (or a Swede 82, if you prefer a wood handle).

The blade on the Swede 92 is thinner than your average Scandi knife, but the grind is much shallower and gradual.

I use mine in the kitchen for pretty much whatever, and it performs very well.

Mine is an older "Normark" branded version, but it's still a Swede 92.

From a photo spread taken when I opened it:
2008_0103-Normark-023.jpg


2008_0103-Normark-028.jpg



Remarkable knife. Also, if you can find the even earlier older "Super Swede" by EKA, the grind is very similar.
attachment.php


(Top one in this photo.)
attachment.php



Odd looking critter. Cuts like blazes.

 
dantzk8 said:
Very true. There is a misunderstanding about the "scandi" grind. It's not a slicer, it's a chisel, a specialised tool for wood carving and it works very well for that purpose. It's a grind which take advantages of the bevels as a guide and as a wedge. The very edge doesn't work so much, the bevels deviate the wood fibers and the shoulders give a leverage point for a good leading control of the blade.



For a slicer yes, the amount of steel and how this amount is distributed in the blade cross section will be the performance factors, and thinner the stock less will be the resistance of the media to the cutting.
But for a "scandi" grind used to carve wood the thickness of the stock is a less important factor. As long as the blade is stiff enough.

All this to say that cutting an apple with a Mora is like carving wood with a paring knife. Not the best choice.

dantzk.
Click to expand...

Yup! I was referring specifically to geometry as applied to food prep. Other geometries will do better at other tasks. :)
 
retzius said:
I busted out my Mora Triflex to process some potatos, carrots, apples etc thinking that the scandi would slice these like crazy since it bites wood so well. Much to my surprise it was HORRIBLE! When cutting an apple I had to practically pry and break the thing apart. :confused:
Click to expand...

It's really a revelation the first time you try to do food prep with a Scandi, isn't it? Great knives, worthless when it comes to cutting something like a carrot.

It's a great lesson that, as Big Mike said, "Geometry rules." It just seems like people have forgotten that. Not sure how that happened...
 
IMO the reason people think scandis work so well is because they're easier to sharpen. They have this crazy sharp scandi knife compared to their so so sharp v or convex edges. Of course they're going to think it's better. However I had a 5 dollar knife I got in the asian food market that out cut all of my knives(including my customs) even when it was dull. The reason is because it had ideal geometry for cutting food. If you were to compare two equally sharp knives, one scandi and the other convex or v grind, you'll ditch the scandi pretty quick. IME there's really nothing a scandi does better then the other grinds.

All that said I find my mora companion mg to do just fine in the kitchen.:D
 
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