Scandi grind dissapointment - what am i missing here?

dantzk8 said:
me2,

I always have taken benefit from the reading of your posts. So it's with all due respect i give you my opinion: buying a Mora, for the price they are sold, isn't of a great risk for your wallet. I don't know if it could outcut anyone of your knives but it could surprise you if you use it for it's intended purpose which is, (have i already said it?) carving wood.

dantzk.
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Flattery will get you a long way in life. Thanks.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...igh-Speed-Steel-Puukko/page2?highlight=Puukko


I made my own puukko (sort of) blade years ago. One update is that the blade is actually 0.04" thick, not the 1/16" stated in the review. I finally got some calipers. I pity anyone who tries to resharpen the entire bevel of a M2 puukko style blade by hand. You may have seen this thread, but I'll repost it here for the OP's benefit. I'm thinking of making another, but I'll use some annealed A2 I have left over and heat treat it AFTER grinding.

I understand the appeal of puukko style knives (scandi irritates the tar out of me). Especially based on tradition and such. However, I cannot see the advantage of a Mora over another knife of the same profile, but a slightly thicker blade, say 5/32" instead of the common 3/32", with a full flat grind and a 10 degree edge bevel. I try to be specific in the way I use terms, and I define a difference between ease of sharpening and speed of sharpening. However, I just can't see the logic behind wanting to remove steel from a bevel that's 3/8" wide vs. one that's 1/16" or less. I know the bevel is easier to match, but if it's that narrow, just change it to an angle you find more natural, and it will still cut as good or better, even in wood. I don't do a lot of wood carving/shaping with a knife, and I know control with a puukko style is a selling point, but use of less force is a bit part of control, for which I'd give the advantage to the FFG blade with a much thinner edge and the same edge angle. But, Mora's are so cheap, and that low edge angle, even on full stock blades, will still cut circles around a tactical folder with a 22 degree edge backed by a 0.04" thick edge. I can see the appeal, I just think it's gotten blown way out of proportion.
 
Scandinavia peninsula = (geographical) Norway and Sweden – and both have very similar knife blade design.

Pukko is the same type of knife – but from Finland – and the traditional pukko - and the Scandinavian blade design differs.

The pukko blade is not as wide as Scandi knifes are (differs only 1-2 mm), the belly is smaller = the tip is more pointy, and the blade is normally just a little longer.
Finland and Norway / Sweden’s population (back in time) work a lot with wood, they eat with their knife’s daily and they use the knife during hunting and fishing – so – the blade design should be the same – but they are not.

Why? I do not have the answer – but I can speculate about it…

I think that the game differs – and that the population in Finland fished more then they hunted. Because of this, the blade is longer, and the belly is smaller = good for minor games and good for butchering fish – and still perfect for daily woodwork and to eat with.

A pukko is a pukko. It is a special traditional knife design who is still used in Finland – and it differs from Scandinavian knifes a lot (for us who lives here).

Pukko have also Scandi grind – but I think that they are just a little lower in edge angle then Scandi knifes are = sharper = good for fishing and woodwork in soft wood.

Blade design is a traditional “thing” and the climate, type of wood, hunted games, butchering fish and so on = the use of the knife - decides its blade design. That is why there is thousands of different blade designs in the world = you can read the design and (hopefully) understand why the blade are designed at it is.

Is a pukko a Scandi knife? Yes – and no. It is a Scandi type of knife – but not the same type of knife who was used in the Scandinavia peninsula.

Thomas
 
me2 said:
Flattery will get you a long way in life. Thanks.
Click to expand...

At the end of a life that hasn't been such a long way this sentence sounds wickedly ironic to my ears.

I understand the appeal of puukko style knives (scandi irritates the tar out of me). Especially based on tradition and such. However, I cannot see the advantage of a Mora over another knife of the same profile, but a slightly thicker blade, say 5/32" instead of the common 3/32", with a full flat grind and a 10 degree edge bevel. I try to be specific in the way I use terms, and I define a difference between ease of sharpening and speed of sharpening. However, I just can't see the logic behind wanting to remove steel from a bevel that's 3/8" wide vs. one that's 1/16" or less. I know the bevel is easier to match, but if it's that narrow, just change it to an angle you find more natural, and it will still cut as good or better, even in wood. I don't do a lot of wood carving/shaping with a knife, and I know control with a puukko style is a selling point, but use of less force is a bit part of control, for which I'd give the advantage to the FFG blade with a much thinner edge and the same edge angle. But, Mora's are so cheap, and that low edge angle, even on full stock blades, will still cut circles around a tactical folder with a 22 degree edge backed by a 0.04" thick edge. I can see the appeal, I just think it's gotten blown way out of proportion.
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I hear you. I'm, me too, convinced of the advantage of a full flat grind for the cutting efficiency, (lead a blade deeply in a material). There where i disagree is that i'm convinced of the better ability of a puukko style knife to get control of the cut compared to the one you get with a full flat grind. This, of course, at the expense of the depth of cut. It might be necessary to distinguish between cutting and carving or for me to reconsider my clumsiness in the use of a ffg for carving.

dantzk.
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EdgePal said:
Scandinavia peninsula = (geographical) Norway and Sweden – and both have very similar knife blade design.

Pukko is the same type of knife – but from Finland – and the traditional pukko - and the Scandinavian blade design differs.

The pukko blade is not as wide as Scandi knifes are (differs only 1-2 mm), the belly is smaller = the tip is more pointy, and the blade is normally just a little longer.
Finland and Norway / Sweden’s population (back in time) work a lot with wood, they eat with their knife’s daily and they use the knife during hunting and fishing – so – the blade design should be the same – but they are not.

Why? I do not have the answer – but I can speculate about it…

I think that the game differs – and that the population in Finland fished more then they hunted. Because of this, the blade is longer, and the belly is smaller = good for minor games and good for butchering fish – and still perfect for daily woodwork and to eat with.

A pukko is a pukko. It is a special traditional knife design who is still used in Finland – and it differs from Scandinavian knifes a lot (for us who lives here).

Pukko have also Scandi grind – but I think that they are just a little lower in edge angle then Scandi knifes are = sharper = good for fishing and woodwork in soft wood.

Blade design is a traditional “thing” and the climate, type of wood, hunted games, butchering fish and so on = the use of the knife - decides its blade design. That is why there is thousands of different blade designs in the world = you can read the design and (hopefully) understand why the blade are designed at it is.

Is a pukko a Scandi knife? Yes – and no. It is a Scandi type of knife – but not the same type of knife who was used in the Scandinavia peninsula.

Thomas
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Im glad you brought the subject up. Scandic knives with their, at worst in a hidden (or not so hidden) demeaning tone described as "cheap and primitive" grinds are all lumped into one "scandi grind knife" category.

Another subject I don't want to sound too serious about is even simpler, writing the word PUUKKO. In internet its seen as puuko and pukko, as you accidentally wrote. The amount of puukos and pukkos in written internet however is so big that it seems like a case of circular referencing. In finnish language it's only known in one way: PUUKKO ;)

I think you brought up excellent points about the distinction between swedish, norwegian and finnish knives.

I would like to point out that the very large variation in nordic knife designs that exist, it's difficult to interpret what is characteristic of a nation, original or specific to which country. I'd say it's more of a case of geological and demographic differences.

While there are some features one looks for in a nordic knife to differentiate the origin, the only somewhat consistent features I have found different in nordic knives per nation, are blade thickness and the edge angle. Based on my references and actual (not very large but still representative) knife data, the lowest edge angles are from Finland, then Sweden and the most "obtuse" edge angles come from Norway. As a small detail, a sampling of factory and handmade/forged knifes from Finland average a single bevel flattish grind of just above 16 degrees! I was actually surprised to find that out, I thought it'd be more like 17...18. In reference swedish knives average at 20 degrees which is still aways away from the very popular "Bushcraft angle" of 25 degrees. Put it, or the actual english bushcraft design with it's beefy blade against a folder with a full flat double bevel with a tweaked 25 degree edge angle and...well, do you really even need to cut to find out which one is better?

Going back to my sampling example, the percentage of real single bevel grinds with no microbevel was 30 at this sampling and it doesn't count user created microbevels. Real single bevels are more common with handmade blades but they are found even on cheapest working puukkos, as are very acute 16 degree grinds...


My comments above are however too simplistic results again to lump variety of amazing ethnic knives into one definition. I don't have the time to go to the reasoning behind edge angles and why they vary in what range in finnish knives but suffice to say, everything has a reason behind them.


Just some thoughts..
 
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PatriotDan, thanks for your reply. Knifes are tools. Tools are used to solve a problem, or many problems. That is whu a shoemaker have a shoemaker knife and the doctor have scalpels. If they change knifes between them, no one can work with their knifes. There are thousands of different traditional knifes in the world, every one of them are designed to solve one, or more problems.

Today, very few people uses knifes in the traditional way because we do not live old traditional life’s, we live in a modern way – and we have a lot of other tools who help us solve problems, not just knifes. We do not make wooden plates or cups any more to use in our homes, we do not repair our wooden tools because we do not have wooden tools any more.

The old knowledge to design blades and edges are more or less gone. For modern people a knife is a knife, the knife can be good or bad – or useless, depending on how the owner use it – and to what. People by knifes because they look cool – they do not invent their needs of a knife and translate their needs to a special blade and edge design who really solve their problems. The knowledge to “read” the blade design is more or less gone. That is my experience.

This has also create a lot of myths about blades, edges and edge angles. For example, convex edges are likely sensitive for its cutting edge angle as flat edges are – but most people believe that if a edge is convex it is a better type of edge = any convex edge is better. It is not so. Today people measure “sharpness”. Edges shall be as sharp as possible. For me, an edge shall be as sharp it need to be to fulfill its purpose – not sharper than that – and te edge shall have a good retention so that I can work with the knife for long time before it get dull. Knifes can have two big problems, they can be too dull – and to sharp.

A felling axe has convex edge. The convex sphere, and the degrees on its cutting edge is very important for its function. The axe shall go deep into the wood, across the wood fibers – and bounce out again. If the convex sphere and the edge angle is to steep, the edge will not go in to the wood, it just bounce of the wood. If the convex sphere is to slam, the edge go deep in to the wood – and stays there and it can be a hell to get it out again. Convex edges on knifes works in the same way – they must be balanced to its use.

Few people can read the difference between a pukko and a Scandi in blade design and edgeangles. They believe that it is the same type of knife. It is not, Both are designed from use – but from different type of use – and from some similar type of use, that is why they differ in design. Most people today, not all people, do not understand simple things about blade design. For example that the tip of the blade – and the belly of the blade work together. If I need a very sharp tip to penetrate a material – the belly will be small. If I need a big belly – the tip will almost dissapeare = my main use of the knife decides the design of the tip and the belly. The straight part of the edge is also decided of my needs, shall I skin rabbits or bears, butcher heerings – or bluevales. The edge angle are depending on what force I need to use, high force = high edge angles, low force = low edge angles – and so on.

For more then 50 yaers ago, when I got my first knife – my father, and all other men around me, told me to "never chop with the knife, knifes are designed to slice with – if you need to chop, use an axe". That whas “ evrybodys knowledge” in Scandinavia. That is also why we have edges around 20 degrees – and that is also Finland edges are lower than that. We used both knifes – and axes.

Thomas
 
Traditional grinds from different parts of the world are different as would be expected.

The US being much younger than the other Countries has adopted a variety of different grinds from Europe, Asia and Japan over the Centuries.
 
EdgePal said:
PatriotDan, thanks for your reply. Knifes are tools. Tools are used to solve a problem, or many problems. That is whu a shoemaker have a shoemaker knife and the doctor have scalpels. If they change knifes between them, no one can work with their knifes. There are thousands of different traditional knifes in the world, every one of them are designed to solve one, or more problems.

Today, very few people uses knifes in the traditional way because we do not live old traditional life’s, we live in a modern way – and we have a lot of other tools who help us solve problems, not just knifes. We do not make wooden plates or cups any more to use in our homes, we do not repair our wooden tools because we do not have wooden tools any more.

The old knowledge to design blades and edges are more or less gone. For modern people a knife is a knife, the knife can be good or bad – or useless, depending on how the owner use it – and to what. People by knifes because they look cool – they do not invent their needs of a knife and translate their needs to a special blade and edge design who really solve their problems. The knowledge to “read” the blade design is more or less gone. That is my experience.

This has also create a lot of myths about blades, edges and edge angles. For example, convex edges are likely sensitive for its cutting edge angle as flat edges are – but most people believe that if a edge is convex it is a better type of edge = any convex edge is better. It is not so. Today people measure “sharpness”. Edges shall be as sharp as possible. For me, an edge shall be as sharp it need to be to fulfill its purpose – not sharper than that – and te edge shall have a good retention so that I can work with the knife for long time before it get dull. Knifes can have two big problems, they can be too dull – and to sharp.

A felling axe has convex edge. The convex sphere, and the degrees on its cutting edge is very important for its function. The axe shall go deep into the wood, across the wood fibers – and bounce out again. If the convex sphere and the edge angle is to steep, the edge will not go in to the wood, it just bounce of the wood. If the convex sphere is to slam, the edge go deep in to the wood – and stays there and it can be a hell to get it out again. Convex edges on knifes works in the same way – they must be balanced to its use.

Few people can read the difference between a pukko and a Scandi in blade design and edgeangles. They believe that it is the same type of knife. It is not, Both are designed from use – but from different type of use – and from some similar type of use, that is why they differ in design. Most people today, not all people, do not understand simple things about blade design. For example that the tip of the blade – and the belly of the blade work together. If I need a very sharp tip to penetrate a material – the belly will be small. If I need a big belly – the tip will almost dissapeare = my main use of the knife decides the design of the tip and the belly. The straight part of the edge is also decided of my needs, shall I skin rabbits or bears, butcher heerings – or bluevales. The edge angle are depending on what force I need to use, high force = high edge angles, low force = low edge angles – and so on.

For more then 50 yaers ago, when I got my first knife – my father, and all other men around me, told me to "never chop with the knife, knifes are designed to slice with – if you need to chop, use an axe". That whas “ evrybodys knowledge” in Scandinavia. That is also why we have edges around 20 degrees – and that is also Finland edges are lower than that. We used both knifes – and axes.

Thomas
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Thomas, thanks again for your thoughts, much appreciated! :thumbup:
 
With regard to the comment regarding the relationship between point and belly geometry it's worth noting that it's possible to have both a deep belly and fine point if making use of a trailing point where the point is made more acute by "removal" of material from the spine rather than the edge side of the blade. This comes with its own set of drawbacks, as well. :)
 
Fortytwoblades, yes, it is possible to do that – but you do not find that blade design far back in time on traditional blades – at least not here in Scandinavia – and I do not think that the belly on that type of blade design is a good belly to skin with. That sad, we have different knife cultures in Europe and America. Our knifes are smaller about 10 cm blade length (or less) - and the edge angle is about 20 degrees, your knifes are bigger and your edge angle is about 30 degrees – (and above) – and I still talks about traditional knifes. I guess that you chop with your knifes – we did not. It can be as simple as that.

Modern knifes differ from traditional knifes because today you can find Scandis in US - and US knifes in Scandinavia.People by often knifes because how they look, a “cool” knife can be very popular -. And they are often, in my mind, useless. They are just cool and good locking. Nothing to trust outdoors. They are probably design by an “officedesk survivor”.:)

Scandi knifes is good survival knifes because they are all-round knifes – best place to survive with that type of knife is in Scandinavia – and in similar places, similar climate, and so on. I do not think it is a good survival knife in the dessert or in south America – and then we are back to the fact that the use of the knife designs its blade – and what just that blade can perform - in just that climate...

My grandpa opens game with his knifes, my father opens letter with his knife, I open emails…:D Life changes...

Thomas
 
EdgePal said:
Fortytwoblades, yes, it is possible to do that – but you do not find that blade design far back in time on traditional blades – at least not here in Scandinavia – and I do not think that the belly on that type of blade design is a good belly to skin with. That sad, we have different knife cultures in Europe and America. Our knifes are smaller about 10 cm blade length (or less) - and the edge angle is about 20 degrees, your knifes are bigger and your edge angle is about 30 degrees – (and above) – and I still talks about traditional knifes. I guess that you chop with your knifes – we did not. It can be as simple as that.

Modern knifes differ from traditional knifes because today you can find Scandis in US - and US knifes in Scandinavia.People by often knifes because how they look, a “cool” knife can be very popular -. And they are often, in my mind, useless. They are just cool and good locking. Nothing to trust outdoors. They are probably design by an “officedesk survivor”.:)

Scandi knifes is good survival knifes because they are all-round knifes – best place to survive with that type of knife is in Scandinavia – and in similar places, similar climate, and so on. I do not think it is a good survival knife in the dessert or in south America – and then we are back to the fact that the use of the knife designs its blade – and what just that blade can perform - in just that climate...

My grandpa opens game with his knifes, my father opens letter with his knife, I open emails…:D Life changes...

Thomas
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I'm not a big fan of trailing points either--just felt it worth mentioning that they do represent a third form of point/belly relationship even if they aren't found on traditional nordic knives. As far as an all-around grind goes, I still prefer a full flat grind myself.

I think you'd find that traditional American knives are more similar to European ones than they are different, at least when it comes to fundamental design characteristics. The whole "chopping knife" and thick, broad-beveled thing is (and I make a broad sweeping generalization here) a relatively recent phenomenon in the cutlery industry. All of my long choppers are machetes, which are thin just about anyone's standards. :D While there is a great range of traditional American chopping tools it is in the same tradition as you previously described--many cutting tools for many cutting tasks. There are as many examples of paper-thin American knives as there are 1/4" thick ones.

Just my thoughts, so feel free to disagree.
 
Fortytwoblades, I agree – surprised? When we discuss we must discuss the total – not particular knifes. There have always been people who have their own minds about knife’s and edges, in all ages down to the stone age = “edge nerds”…

I lived during 20 years, at least 6 month every year, with the Sami people in the mountains in north Sweden. I carried a knife belt and I carry two knifes, a normal Sami knife, 11 cm long blade, Scandi blade – and it was slightly convex. My other knife was a 22 cm long “chopper” (huggare in Swedish). The big knife was for heavy work, the small knife for everything else. During the winter I also carry a small axe. I have shown photo here for some years ago on my knife belt and my knifes (the latest knifes I used on this belt). During those years I learn how to sharpen by freehand. I did that for more than 40 years. During the last 10 years, I use sharpening tools.

You say that this phenomenon with steep edge angles and so on is a late thing, how late? 50 years? 100? What make this change come? For me, this means a change of culture (knife culture) and I am interested why this change appears – and when. I like to learn more about this.

I see the same thing happened here in Scandinavia. Young people by US knife’s, often big folders – to chop with (?). Black coated blades are popular, camouflage painted knifes also, big, for me very strange and not functional choppers are used here – often partly recurved edges on them – and people here cannot sharpen them properly – but they look cool… - so I think we are in the early beginning of a knife culture change here… perhaps…

Thomas
 
EdgePal said:
Fortytwoblades, I agree – surprised? When we discuss we must discuss the total – not particular knifes. There have always been people who have their own minds about knife’s and edges, in all ages down to the stone age = “edge nerds”…

I lived during 20 years, at least 6 month every year, with the Sami people in the mountains in north Sweden. I carried a knife belt and I carry two knifes, a normal Sami knife, 11 cm long blade, Scandi blade – and it was slightly convex. My other knife was a 22 cm long “chopper” (huggare in Swedish). The big knife was for heavy work, the small knife for everything else. During the winter I also carry a small axe. I have shown photo here for some years ago on my knife belt and my knifes (the latest knifes I used on this belt). During those years I learn how to sharpen by freehand. I did that for more than 40 years. During the last 10 years, I use sharpening tools.

You say that this phenomenon with steep edge angles and so on is a late thing, how late? 50 years? 100? What make this change come? For me, this means a change of culture (knife culture) and I am interested why this change appears – and when. I like to learn more about this.

I see the same thing happened here in Scandinavia. Young people by US knife’s, often big folders – to chop with (?). Black coated blades are popular, camouflage painted knifes also, big, for me very strange and not functional choppers are used here – often partly recurved edges on them – and people here cannot sharpen them properly – but they look cool… - so I think we are in the early beginning of a knife culture change here… perhaps…

Thomas
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I'm not surprised at all! I gather we likely think very similarly on this subject. :):thumbup:

As far as the thick blades/obtuse bevels thing goes, I'd say probably say that it's really only been within the past decade (decade and a half tops) and especially the past five years. I think it comes from the recreational knife culture that's developed, as performance-driven designs are not as important compared to "fun."
 
I'd put it in the 80's. Really cheap repros of movie knives and import junk really took over. Action movies, home shopping, planting the seeds and feeding the hype became lots easier. Fundamental shifts in culture where knives are illegal and unwelcome means that many young people both do not need and also can not use a knife, so the most functional designs lose to the most sensational. The reduction in cutting tool usage for the general population drives desire for compact do-it-all tools that don't actually have to do anything really well since they are rarely used.

I think of it like a household where the only gun is an AR clone. Not a hunting rifle or shotgun for hunting purposes, not a pistol for carry, but the black rifle with all those accessories available. Just in case you need to shoot a bad guy, you want the coolest looking army thingy to do it. Cause that's the only reason you own a gun, you wouldn't ever waste your time hunting and your local government doesn't allow concealed carry, or does with ridiculous hoops to jump through. If you only need to cut something three times a year, and don't cook fresh food in the kitchen at all, then your knife can look cool and be ready for the time when the shtf and you have to chop some concrete and pry open some shipping containers. Heck knows you don't have any rope around the house that needs cutting.
 
Yeah I'd say that's where the phenomenon traces its origins, but I don't think the seed really took root until a decade ago even though it was planted back then. I don't think there were a lot of knives of that style widely available back in the 80's. Just my thoughts though.
 
Now I am surprised… Have I got this about US steeper edge angles wrong? I got this opinion already during the sixties/seventies when I was in contact with US people and look at their knifes, they had much steeper angles then we have here – and when they look at our knifes they was nearly afraid to even hold the knife because” it was so scary sharp”. Sins then I have seen more and more US knifes – and every one of those knifes have a edge angle above 30 degrees.

(Well, I have been wrong before in my life, 1968 I think it was. I admitted that I was wrong – but later on I found out that I was correct – so it was my admitting who was wrong :)).

Some of the US knifes who are popular here today…I wonder, they must have been designed by someone who never have any experience to live in the nature or in the wilderness? Perhaps I am wrong again, but I do not think so. Perhaps it is different climate and so on who demands, for me, strange knife design? But, survival knifes you can’t skin and depart a game with? Can’t butcher a fish with? Cant use to make up a fire? Black coated so that you can’t use the blade for signals to airplanes and helicopters? Camouflage colored knifes for survival purposes? If you work with the knife, and lay it down on the ground – how do you find it again? I am a little confused about designs like that.

Knifes, edge angles and blade design are things who help me solve problems I face in my life. They are like cars. When I need to move big heavy things with my car – and my car is a two seated sports car – when I really need a lorry….? Or, when I have met a wonderful girl and like to impress her with my well used – lorry?

Thomas
 
Edge angles on western knives generally are quite varied though the industry has settled on 40-degree included angles for factory edges. That trend, as opposed to the "sharpened pry bar" trend, definitely started in the 60's/70's as far as my sources indicate (though I'm not infallible!) and there was already a huge decline in the number of people following a lifestyle that actually relied on a thin sharp knife rather than a "good enough" geometry. People began favoring durability over precision cutting due to less time spent using the tool in varying circumstances. The desire to condense the number of knives they had due to comparatively limited need pushed an upswing in the market for "general purpose" knives and with the knife illiterate population at large both grinds and edge angles had to be thicker to support greater abuse.

Go back to the 50's and earlier and you see some very nice thin blades. :)
 
Thin blades have always been in for people who use them to cut.


Real hunters and fisherman have always favored the thinner blades.


It's a different type that goes for the thick sharpened pry-bar style of knife.


Black blade coatings and camo knives are more of the same,

...armchair commandos and mall ninjas have confused combat knives with survival knives,

...the result in many of these knives that are so popular today.


This is nothing new or even recent,

...look back a hundred years and you will see Webster Marble had already figured it out,

...he made the thin bladed Marble's Expert for the serious knife user,

...and the thicker, heavier Marble's Ideal for those "Great White Hunters" to wear around hunting camp.



Guess which knife he sold more of.





Big Mike
 
Forttwoblades, thanks, now I start to understand better. 40 degrees – that is the edge angle we have on our felling axes…. 60/70-deccades seams also correct to me in time.

I do not need to check out the fifties knifes – I believe what you are telling me.

Thanks
Thomas
 
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