Scandi grind dissapointment - what am i missing here?

[sutured]

The concept of an "all around knife" is really misunderstood. An all around knife isn't something that does everything well, because that knife simply doesn't exist. An all around knife is a knife that excels at what you do most, and will work for other tasks. Your all around knife and my all around knife will not be the same knife.

I've found scandi grinds to work great for everything... except food prep, especially chopping vegies. They are truly terrible at that.

But there's nothing in the world that cuts vegies like a flat ground Chinese-pattern vegetable knife. A knife which, incidentally, is pretty much useless for cutting anything else.

I've got several high quality convex ground blades, and all of them pale in comparison to a scandi for carving wood. Wood carving is not the only use for a scandi, but it's certainly where they shine.

If you mostly work wood with your knife then a scandi is a pretty good choice. It'll cut other things just fine (onions, carrots, apples and potatoes excluded) and be superior for wood carving.

A convex edge will do better at cutting foodstuffs, but be markedly worse at precision carving.

While it's temping to state that a scandi grind is only suitable for woodworking, the fact that millions of people have chosen to use that grind for centuries seems to disprove the statement.

It's different tools for different tasks. Try carving an ax handle with your favorite kitchen knife or filleting a fish with your end-of-the-world sharpened pry-bar and you'll find they are also less than ideal.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

It's worth pointing out here that the term "scandi grind" is a misnomer, as well, since traditional Scandinavian knives use a wide range of different grind styles, including "conventional" grinds with secondary bevels. The grind commonly referred to as a "scandi grind" is more properly a short saber grind with a zero edge.

 

[marcinek]

IMO the reason people think scandis work so well is because they're easier to sharpen.

Excellent point! I believe similar thinking is behind why people think convexed edges "cut better" than v-grind edges. There's no magic edge geometry going on...they are just easier for most people to maintain freehand then a v-grind edge.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yeah as far as convexed edges go I really feel the main advantage is the smooth transition of the geometry making your cut easier to control. It doesn't improve the knife's performance--it improves YOUR performance.

 

[avoidspam]

Isn't the curve of the grind a factor too, reducing the surface area of the blade in contact with the material you are cutting?

Sam

 

[marcinek]

Yeah as far as convexed edges go I really feel the main advantage is the smooth transition of the geometry making your cut easier to control. It doesn't improve the knife's performance--it improves YOUR performance.

I do think "Geometry is King," in the end. Not as much "edge geometry" as "overall geometry." Though "sharp" does matter, too.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Isn't the curve of the grind a factor too, reducing the surface area of the blade in contact with the material you are cutting?

Sam

Yes, it matters, but not as much as the volume of material displaced by the cut. In my experience at least.

I do think "Geometry is King," in the end. Not as much "edge geometry" as "overall geometry." Though "sharp" does matter, too.

Agreed. Actual sharpness is definitely very important, but not AS important as overall geometry. :thumbup:

 

[EdgePal]

The Scandi traditional type of knife did exists already during the Viking time for more than 1000 years ago and it have not change thins then. Millions of people have use it during the centuries – and we was a woodcarving people. Apples, potatoes, tomatoes, carrots and so on did not exist here the first b600 years after the Viking time – so they never tested to slice them…If they have exist, the Vikings have design a special knife for them, probably one knife for just potatoes, and another knife for carrots, and so on – this was their way to solve cutting and slicing problems.

They carry an all round knife in their belts (type today’s Mora knife). That knife was design to be able to do everything – but was not good at anything. At home, in the carpenter hut, they have many other knifes, special knifes who was good for special things, one knife with flat edge and 19 degrees angle, special made for slicing in soft wood, another knife, flat edge, with 23 degree angle special made for slicing in hard wood – and so on. In the kitchen they have also different knifes with different design for different special purposes.

Today we have forgot all this – and we use their belt knife – and it is not good for anything – but can do everything- with some extra power and some extra time.

You can skin an elk, bear and a rabbit with it, butcher fish with it, carve out a bowl or make a plate with it, it is designed for just that – but, a special designed skinning knifes does the job faster and better, a special designed fishing knife does the butchering of a fish faster and better – and so on.

The problem today is that we often use only one, perhaps two, knifes –and we have forgotten about all the other special knifes we use in the old days.

What you are talking about have nothing to do with sharpness, it has with penetration skill to do. Potatoes need a thinner blade – because the blade must be able to penetrate the material, press the slices sides away so that the edge can slice deeper in to the potato. The edge can be scarry sharp – but it penetrate the material badly because of the edge angle and the blade width.

Thomas

 

[hollowdweller]

I have a mora 2000 that Spookypistolero gave me and it's pretty much on permanent duty in my kitchen and it slices great.

I think it was Cliff Stamp who once said something to the effect that the reason people think a convex cuts so well is because they are used to Bark River and they do the convex grind so low it's like a full flat grind, and any really low bevel cuts well.

It's sort of a shame that most knifemakers that do a full flat grind put a somewhat steep bevel on it so it cuts down on the efficiency.

 

[JR42]

I do think "Geometry is King," in the end. Not as much "edge geometry" as "overall geometry." Though "sharp" does matter, too.

This. The primary beater kitchen knife in my household is a KAI Wasabi santoku. It has a mediocre edge under the best of circumstances (though I'm slowly rehabilitating it), but still cuts vegetables well due to the thin blade stock, full flat grind, and thin-ness behind the dull edge.

if you want to use a Mora outdoors knife (they also make kitchen knives!) The 2000, 2010 et al would work better than a standard Mora due to the thin grind at the tip.

 

[Shotgun]

If you mostly work wood with your knife then a scandi is a pretty good choice. It'll cut other things just fine (onions, carrots, apples and potatoes excluded) and be superior for wood carving.

A convex edge will do better at cutting foodstuffs, but be markedly worse at precision carving.

This is where personal opinion and personl experience come in. I have not found scandis to be better then a convexed or v ground blade at anything. Including wood work.

 

[marcinek]

I tell you, JR42, a Mora Clipper is in my kitchen...my wife uses it as a steak knife. With a microbevel on it, it does make a pretty darn good steak knife.

Just not really a "push slicer" in the kitchen, if that wording makes sense. More of a "draw cutter." Which explains why they don't, traditionally, have finger guards.

Perfectly fine knives....I just think we went through a period of "scandi-mania" for a while there, where they were the do-all, be-all, wonder knives.

 

[hardheart]

It is generally accepted that a full flat grind cuts better than a saber grind. That is because the only way to make a full flat instead of a saber for the same blade width is to grind at a lower angle. So the full flat, being ground lower than the saber, cuts better. Well, both grinds also may cut better or worse depending on the edge bevel angle as well. Again, a lower angle means better cutting until you get too thin and the edge damages too easily. Well, the scandi is both the primary and edge bevel in one. So the edge bevel may be a fairly low 10 or 12 degrees per side compared to a flat ground knife that may have a 20 degree edge per side, but then the primary bevel is also 10 or 12 degrees, where even the saber grind is more like 5 degrees per side. So the first millimeter of grind from the edge is relatively acute at 20 to 24 degrees compared to what we have been getting in tactica knife flavors in high 30s to low 50s, but then it quickly becomes twice or more as obtuse once we are forcing a 20-24 degree wedge through a tuber instead of a 6 to 10 degree one.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

I see someone has mentioned the Mora 2000.

I have some of these, and they are awesome in the kitchen.

In fact, this new grind/edge profile & geometry is a superb general purpose blade shape. It's not terribly pointy, but that makes it better for skinning. It's not real thick, but that makes it better for veggies and whatever else in the kitchen.

It's not a fabulous fishing knife (needs a fine point and more flex), and it's not a great wood carving knife (I like a better point for that), but for general use, and kitchen use in particular, it's an outstanding blade.

Sure, the grind is more complex than the traditional Scandi grind, but if you pay attention when you sharpen it, the edge is easy to maintain.

In fact, now that someone has raised that reminder, I guess I need to pick up a couple more.

 

[marcinek]

It is generally accepted that a full flat grind cuts better than a saber grind.

That certainly is accepted by me! :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I tell you, JR42, a Mora Clipper is in my kitchen...my wife uses it as a steak knife. With a microbevel on it, it does make a pretty darn good steak knife.

Just not really a "push slicer" in the kitchen, if that wording makes sense. More of a "draw cutter." Which explains why they don't, traditionally, have finger guards.

Perfectly fine knives....I just think we went through a period of "scandi-mania" for a while there, where they were the do-all, be-all, wonder knives.

The reason it works well as a steak knife is because steak is a soft and flexible material that is freely and easily displaced by the blade. So it's a fine option for that sort of work. Resistant/rigid targets like carrots, apples, and other fruit and vegetables are less free to move and so are more prone towards splitting or breaking rather than being smoothly cut.

I find one of the advantages of a scandi for woodcarving is the shoulder of the edge works very nicely to lift at the end of a cutting stroke, terminating the cut in a clean manner.

 

[JR42]

I tell you, JR42, a Mora Clipper is in my kitchen...my wife uses it as a steak knife. With a microbevel on it, it does make a pretty darn good steak knife.

Just not really a "push slicer" in the kitchen, if that wording makes sense. More of a "draw cutter." Which explains why they don't, traditionally, have finger guards.

Perfectly fine knives....I just think we went through a period of "scandi-mania" for a while there, where they were the do-all, be-all, wonder knives.

I hear ya. I've been using a carbon HighQ in the kitchen for a while now, though I don't cook often. It's my knife, so it's decently sharp. I enjoy trying to overcome the difficulties in slicing dense, stiff foods like carrots by adjusting my technique.

JR

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Personally I like the sensation of aggressively sliding straight through resistant targets with my little sharpened feather of a Vic/Forschner paring knife.

 

[avoidspam]

I use a Roselli Carpenter's knife often for woodworking. the scandi grind offers great control. As time has passed I have sharpened it by laying grit paper on top of my strop and finishing with the strop. This has convexed the edge slightly, reducing rolling which was occurring when I first got the knife. I can see how,try as they might people would have ended up with a slightly convexed edge after sharpening with a stone. Can't imagine it bothered them a jot. I'll try to keep the convex effect to a minimum, ensuring the control factor remains.

Where the Roselli falls down is cutting larger diameter green wood (same problem as discussed). I also have a Svord 320BB drop point with a 2.5mm convex ground blade. this eats green wood for breakfast, comfortably out cutting the Roselli and every other FFG knife I have with the same stock thickness. It (I) lack the control of the Roselli but I'm learning...... The Svord would be closest to what I would describe as an all round knife. A touch pointier would be nice

Sam

 

[RDog]

If you want a treat, go find an EKA Swede 92 (or a Swede 82, if you prefer a wood handle).

The blade on the Swede 92 is thinner than your average Scandi knife, but the grind is much shallower and gradual.

I use mine in the kitchen for pretty much whatever, and it performs very well.

Mine is an older "Normark" branded version, but it's still a Swede 92.

From a photo spread taken when I opened it:

Great, you just added to my want list!



Personally I like my mora 2000 as a meat slicer...it is amazing.

And I agree with what many here are saying, different blades do different things better, however I have never had any of my 4 and counting scandi blades do anything horrible.