Schatt Morgan, Queen and GEC

I don’t really have much to add to this conversation except that I have a Schatt and Morgan Gunstock pattern of unknown manufacture year and a Queen Copperhead from the early 2000’s that I love greatly. Are they perfect? No, but they are well made.

I really miss having the old Queen cutlery company around and I wish I had bought more of their patterns.
 
Certainly, Queen's woes towards its implosion were not the result of irresponsible tittle-tattle, bad mouthing or internet groupthink. It became for me a kind of Russian Roulette, but with you knowing that it was very likely you'd get a live round :eek: Kind of five loaded shots and one blank...:rolleyes: QC might only be one aspect of running a business yes, but it's about the most vital one.

For me, living outside the US it became unsustainable: mixed blade steels on the same knife, appalling finish, cheap feel and yet far from cheap price. It left me dismayed as Queen had been a great favourite of mine especially its D2 series in Bonestag and knives which were for me unobtainable, items from earlier in the c20th. I have this Mini Muskrat from about 2012, F&F are excellent, cannot complain but what IS the steel and can I get an edge on what is allegedly 420 of some kind? No, not at all but it has some strange burn like marks on the blades that suggest something very wrong in the manufacturing. Yet, the economy line Work Horse Barlow I got, jigged delrin, external pivots was really well finished and an excellent work-knife, this came out not far from the end so it certainly wasn't all horror:thumbsup:

The horror is the loss of a once great cutlery firm and we are all diminished by that wherever we come from on this Forum.

Three good later ones: The Barlow

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This HERITAGE Rosewood Spear was a very good one- the Clip version less so-blade rather thick though.

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Plus this excellent Bone Heritage Jack a generous present from @Cutfinger

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knifeswapper said:
Some statements of my opinion, but commonly shared among the community.

Queen / S&M have made good knives for a long time and has a great history as a cutlery manufacturer.
The resurgence of the brands came in the 1980's with the Winchester reproductions and other work done on contract.
The market share grew thru the 1990's with Case Classics, Moore Makers, Bulldog, and finally in the later part of the decade with their branded products.
By 2000 Queen was making one of the best slipjoints in the U.S.
In 2008 quality started to slip and although there were rays of light - it continued to slip until the company entered bankruptcy.
Bill was at Queen in the 1980's, 1990's and early 2000's. He left his upper management position in 2006 to start GEC.

Since most of this story is a couple decades old - I am fairly comfortable that we can start forming opinions.
I have never made the conclusion as to whether Bill left because the quality was in decline or if the quality declined due to Bill leaving. Maybe Bill is a malicious competitor and sabotaged Queen as he was leaving to eliminate the competition (I don't subscribe to this idea that I just made up; but want to cover all the bases). Or maybe, none of the above - just coincidences.

Now, a couple items not everyone knows. After Bill left Queen the company went into chaos. As one of their larger dealers - I could not even get in touch with the sales staff; much less get product onto my shelves. Once the Daniel's family bought the company they seemed to get production volume back up quickly. After they had been in charge for a year or so a couple of dealers (that were very close to Ken) kept touting how great the new products were - so it seemed as if maybe the quality was improving and I placed a 5 digit order with them. In hindsight it was probably more like Damone on Fast Times at Ridgemont High: wherever you are at is the best place to be; whatever you are doing is the best thing to be doing. Dealers don't sell a lot by saying, "this thousands of dollars worth of knives I just got in is seriously lacking in fit/finish". When the products arrived, they were so inconsistent that I had to start putting them on my website in a "graded" fashion and tiered pricing. A (no issues, good action), B(slight issues), C(issues but mostly cosmetic or repairable), and D(shouldn't have left the factory). Ken had told me they were not taking back small issues from dealers; but took offense to my new methodology to protect my customers and sent me a letter stating I was no longer the type of dealer they wanted. I had already sent back a lot of knives for obvious defects and had a balance at the factory for thousands of dollars. I told Ken that I agreed with his assessment and needed my factory credit repaid. It took months to get my money back. But other dealers had much bigger credits at the factory that were completely lost after the bankruptcy. I would frequently check in with other dealers about current Queen products; but the main one was KSF. They ended up having to give away Queen made barlows with a larger purchase because the quality was so bad. I also knew a middle manager at SMKW near the end of the Daniel's ownership that told me personally they had ceased all purchases from Queen. Also talked to a large distributor that purchased directly from Blue Ridge Knives things that didn't necessarily go out to everyone. He said they bought Queen seconds off a pallet in the warehouse at BRK - and there were several pallets. So, I don't think a little QC miss here and there was the issue.

Regarding the Heritage series specifically. I was exciting for them, but had already seen a couple glimpses of a lack of quality control. They made a line of "economy" Queen City knives that were actually a good value for the money. But my cost was in the $20-30's; so minor issues were overlooked (smashed pins, small gaps, etc.). When I received the first Heritage knives there were a lot of gaps around shields, in liners, blade grinds were very uneven, etc. This was a marked decline from what they have been producing in the past. I felt a bit like since the economy series was a hit; the new management decided this would be a way to save money on all production. I had a long conversation with Jennie (upper management at the time) and the gist of her response was that this would be the new norm.

So, there was good and bad. I am not deriving my information or opinions from stories I read or second hand information. I am basing it on dealings I have had directly and indirectly with Queen management and products for over 30 years. A product that I was crazy about for over a decade and was one of their top purchasing dealers.
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Thanks for the concise report Mike........ Your knowledge is very much appreciated....
 
Norcaldude said:
Myself, when I am looking through the Queen or S&M knives for sale online, if I see that the blade has that DFC stamp on it, I don't buy it.
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Any particular reason, and i don't mean that in a derogatory way, just like to hear all opinions. I am looking at purchasing my first knife from this maker, and always like to know what or what not to look for. :thumbsup:
 
cudgee said:
Any particular reason, and i don't mean that in a derogatory way, just like to hear all opinions. I am looking at purchasing my first knife from this maker, and always like to know what or what not to look for. :thumbsup:
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DFC stands for (I assume) Daniels Family Cutlery. That indicates the knife was made during the time when the Daniels were running Queen and the quality was much lower. See Knifeswapper's comment earlier.
 
Thanks for the long explanation Mike, sounds like a terrible experience

I don’t say this to be argumentative, but from my perspective as a knife collector who enjoys traditional American knives, the issues you have described all go to quality control. The distinct lack thereof. For a knife collector back in the early 2000s, mid 2010s, and today, this has implications. (For example, I didn’t buy a trestle pine topper from one of your competitors because of what I read on these forums). But it seems to be the case (for the purpose of the point I am making) that a Queen knife in each of those three periods could still be a good knife.

Therefore, if we judge Queen on quality control alone, we aren’t really describing their value to a knife collector or to a user. If you happened to like a Queen pattern, including a Queen-made knife like a Moore Maker, it could still be a really good choice.

The reason I feel this is important is that I perceive a risk in labelling all GEC’s actions as good and all Queen’s as bad. Heaven forbid, if GEC ever got themselves into Queen’s dire position, would their dealers have a better experience?

There is a lot of interesting stuff here. Glad we have something to discuss besides knives :p
 
Camillus said:
I didn’t buy a trestle pine topper from one of your competitors because of what I read on these forums). But it seems to be the case (for the purpose of the point I am making) that a Queen knife in each of those three periods could still be a good knife.
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I was under the impression that Queen made those original Trestle Pine slipjoints too.
 
Camillus said:
I don’t say this to be argumentative, but from my perspective as a knife collector who enjoys traditional American knives, the issues you have described all go to quality control. The distinct lack thereof. For a knife collector back in the early 2000s, mid 2010s, and today, this has implications. (For example, I didn’t buy a trestle pine topper from one of your competitors because of what I read on these forums). But it seems to be the case (for the purpose of the point I am making) that a Queen knife in each of those three periods could still be a good knife.

Therefore, if we judge Queen on quality control alone, we aren’t really describing their value to a knife collector or to a user. If you happened to like a Queen pattern, including a Queen-made knife like a Moore Maker, it could still be a really good choice.

The reason I feel this is important is that I perceive a risk in labelling all GEC’s actions as good and all Queen’s as bad. Heaven forbid, if GEC ever got themselves into Queen’s dire position, would their dealers have a better experience?
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It seems a bit to me that either you focus on the point of view that keeps your original supposition relevant (not meant as snide as it sounds) or I am terrible at explaining my point of view. Some of the best knives I have owned are Queen. As far as I am concerned there has still nobody made a better knife than a @2000 Queen large congress. The action is the high water mark for any slipjoint in my opinion. And my relationship with Queen in 2005 is exactly what it is with GEC right now. So if GEC starts their descent respectively - in a few years I will be telling the story about how there once were great GEC knives (if I even know who I am in a few years). Nobody cares that Hen & Rooster, Kissing Crane, Bulldog, etc. were great knives in the day if they are all just offshore $20 knives today; you always have to wonder what you are really buying. There are those that know enough to be getting bargains on great knives; but they are for their enjoyment because their collector value is shot.

But to keep saying that you feel like such a large percentage of the knives coming out of the factory over the last decade being poor examples must have been a QC problem - is looking way too hard for the positive. I guess I can see a scenario where someone that has not been involved in years of conversations and reviews right here on BF might see QC on the very surface if they received one of these knives. Eventually you have to come to the conclusion that the workers either couldn't or wouldn't make a quality knife. Maybe they had trashed all their equipment on steels that were too hard for what it was made to cut / grind / etc. The QC was working overtime if BRK had pallets of seconds. If every knife coming thru QC has something wrong with it and the company cannot make payroll - that is not a QC issue. And if someone lowered the criteria for what could be shipped to dealers - that is not a QC issue. That is management conscious effort to choose money over quality. But, I do agree that we shouldn't let the last few years define the opinion of a 100 year old company. But sadly that is always the way it works. Then going offshore so the vultures can pick the meat off the bones is another common theme.
 
knifeswapper said:
So if GEC starts their descent respectively - in a few years I will be telling the story about how there once were great GEC knives (if I even know who I am in a few years). Nobody cares that Hen & Rooster, Kissing Crane, Bulldog, etc. were great knives in the day if they are all just offshore $20 knives today;
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A very pertinent point, things and times change so quickly, especially in the modern era we live in now. What used to take decades and generations to change, come and go in a few years now, especially if they become irrelevant to the ever changing consumer. People being brand committed is not as common as it once was. In any business, no matter how committed you are to a cause, it all comes down to the bottom line eventually, and if downsizing on quality or going off shore is the only way you will survive, that is what happens. We may not like it, but it always comes back to the Dollar and survival. There are no guarantees in the commercial world, history is littered with companies and trends that have disappeared. If i could predict the future and trends, i wouldn't be here on a Saturday arvo typing this into my computer, Tropical islands and drinks with umbrellas in 'em ring a bell.:rolleyes::rolleyes::p:p;);)
 
Mike,
It is generous of you to take so much time and reflect such detail in a clearly long-term experience.
 
For most of their existence if you bought a Queen knife you were buying a gem. There were some problems at the end of their existence, sure. That can't be ignored. But even at the end they still sent out some good knives. They're worth looking for.

The observation that a given knife is indistinguishable when made by manufacturer X versus manufacturer Y is interesting. That is commonly the case. The common knife patterns are often very similar from one manufacturer to another.

It's funny that Great Eastern has become the standard for quality, while Queen has a reputation for churning out junk. People seem to have a narrow timeline that they pay any attention to these days. GEC is a relative newcomer to the knife game, while Queen was in business for nearly a hundred years. Most of GEC's output is good to excellent. They miss the mark occasionally just like everyone else.

There are thousands, if not millions, of old knives out there, ranging from relics to pristine condition, and from a zillion manufacturers. My experience has been that if you look for those older knives you're very likely to find that it's a good knife. If you fall into the Queen = junk trap you're going to miss out on some fine knives.

My advice to anyone who is interested in the traditional patterns is to try to get past the 'gotta have it today' mindset and do some patient digging.
 
To me this oral history is missing two important facts. First GEC was formed out of the best of Queen's employees. Mr. Howard wasn't the only one who left. That's why GEC knives sometimes are very "Queeny." If a core group leaves, what do you think that does to a small firm of artisans? But hey, that's the way the cutlery business has gone for 200+ years. Second, there was thievery and illicit relationships within Queen that rotted the trunk of the tree. That too is part of the cutlery tradition. Lots of people like to talk about QC, but forget that Quality is management's job and QC is a tool of management :)
 
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