Schrade Cut.Co.Calendar Knife is 14 K gold.

The panel of experts have been in possession of a substantial number of technical photos now for some 4 days and the fact I have not had a resounding and immediate gong indicates to me this decision is going to the line....This forum is the winner with all the recent viewings IMHO. Hoo Roo

Larry: Did any of the other panel members offer their ideas on the knife? Certainly Levine is an expert in the field, and is good at sticking to the facts at hand.

I think you made a point that any who really knows might not be alive. And, I have to admit, the knife looks much better in your pictures than it did in the auction. It still holds a mystery or two. The real truth of your knife may never come out, but it is a Schrade after all, And it adds to the allure. A new one seems to appear out of the cracks every month. That will continue to happen for many years, as the Schrades come out of garage closets, work benches, basements, and attics. And as people with collections pass away.

At any rate, it's just like family history. If someone doesn't document it, it becomes folklore. Such is the sport of collecting.
 
Thawk,I am still awaiting some opinions,it would have helped finding provenance on this knife and my being able to post opinions I have had expressed in private and which have to remain private, if we didnt have the added dimension of no-one wishing to openly offend the obvious.....and you know to which I refer.....this knife deserves much better I feel than the lousy deal its been handed right fom the outset,as genuine Schrade enthusiasts have expressed to me, and the mis- reporting and distorting of factual evidence also has not assisted, but as my favourite all time TV show used to tell me...'Truth..Justice..and the American Way'......will prevail..even if he did wear his underpants on the outside??... Hoo Roo
P.S. If you held this knife you would also know its genuine as I do.....I guess it doesnt really matter to me as I'm not looking to sell it or my 3OT. Thought it might be of relevance to a USA Schrade Collector/History site like this Forum to proclaim or debunk based on factual evidence and not hysterics. Hoo Roo
 
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In years past I was a patent illustrator producing those strange, semi-artistic multiple view illustrations you see accompanying patents. I drew them by hand first in a pencil first draft, and then with black india ink on Bristol board, adding the title text identifying the views and the attorney's detail numbers as presented in the detailed description from the body of the application. I worked for the attorneys in preparing the patent applications for their clients on items as mundane as knife sharpeners and fishing lures, to chemical processes, nuclear reactors, hip joint replacements, prothesis for cancer patients and complicated laser applications.

I had to learn to read the legal portions, a very dry, set form of writing which refrains in it's entirity from speculation and lore. Only clear facts were allowed, lest the patent examiner reject the application. A rejected application could be ammended and refiled, but at a cost of time and expense to the attorney and client.

Another requirement to a patent application was to list "prior art", previously known allowed patents which show the current state of the art in the immediate field of the client's application. And then to show in text and illustration how and why the new invention is an improvement over the prior art. In both text and illustration, it was often beneficial to the applicant to make the patent as broad as possible with as many reasonable, provable claims as possible to acquire the most offensive and defensive rights for the patent. Thus one invention patent may have two, three or more embodiments in addition to the preferred embodiment.

I believe this knife, which I at first simply called the "mystery knife", is another embodiment of the Williams-Sargent knife or, as we collectors like to call it, another variant, sharing all of the important details of the first shown / known invention with differing in minor details.

However, opinions, beliefs, possibilities are really a moot point when examining facts. Since this knife (which I now refer to as the MDS knife in defference to the monograms repeated on knife and purse, and in keeping with my calling the first known CPC for it's markings) has come to light, several facts have emerged. Taken as a whole, they point to the knife and purse being an original assembly custom marked for it's original owner. That the knife's monogram is conclusively translated on this knife by the expanded monogram on the purse, "M.D. Stone" casts doubt in my mind as to the modern accepted translation of the monogram on the CPC knife. There is nothing about the knife that calculates, though Sargent's title "Perpetual Calendar" suggests that is a part of the meaning of "CPC", is it? And where do we find a reliable reference that adds "Calculating"? So far in the discussions, discourses and rants that I have read on the CPC knife and the MDS knife, the only authoratitive reference cited has been this issue of Sargent's book which gives very little support to the information offered as fact about the knife.

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I am willing to discuss this further with rational, reasoning adults who are interested. Please check your egos and insults at the door.

Michael
 
Thanks Michael, What is your opinion regarding likelyhood of all being genuine skeleton knives finished in various materials, with etches and without etches.Might the CPC's have been created purely as a test run like my 3OT that never made it formally into production with several being 'finished' by Jewellers.It begs the question why Schrade would "tool up" for such a small production and only in 1937....orrr were more produced after 1937 with the same tooling?....the lack of factual contemporary literature could mean they were not only produced in 1937 simply because several known examples had 1937 on handle. I know at least one that didn't...mine for a start. I wonder if Alberts gold calendar had 1937?
I will be interested to see the Latama I have purchased. The 'S' for Sunday is in Red on my Gold Calendar and if the Latama Calendar Sunday 'S' is not also Red I will question why this glaring anomaly has not already been addressed when it was suggested mine was a Latama case with changed Cut.Co. blades.< the Red can clearly be seen in photos on Larry Vickery's site> I will be posting meaningful comparisons of the Latama upon receipt based on fact.Unfortunately the one black and white photograph in 'Sargents' you've reproduced above gives little clue and the only color photos I have seen of the CPS calendar would have to be considered inadequate at best for accurate comparisons. Hoo Roo
P.S. The Latama is Ebay #170239916644 and does not appear in that photo to have a Red 'S' for Sunday as the Gold Calendar does have.
 
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Larry,

The value of your knife is greater than it's cost to you and has nothing to do with the price of gold or how much gold is in your knife.

If a third party bought Schrade frames (blades, springs and liners, assembled) and put them into their own gold handles this is still a very rare and valuable knife and one that you can be very proud to own. All the others that were made seem to have been long since discarded as worthless, or still in the grandson's dresser drawer.
 
G'Day Mr. Russell, Do you subscribe to the theory that Schrade may have only made the skeleton's and if so how many may have been produced and only in 1937? What is your knowledge of Waldamar's if I may ask?
Indeed are you offering the opinion my knife is as authentic as the other known examples? I really appreciate your above comments. Thank You. Larry 303.
P.S. The value to me as a collector with some 1500 odd USA Schrades is furthering the knowledge/history of Schrade knives. Gold is gold is gold.....and will always remain gold..
 
Thanks Michael, What is your opinion regarding likelyhood of all being genuine skeleton knives finished in various materials, with etches and without etches.Might the CPC's have been created purely as a test run like my 3OT that never made it formally into production with several being 'finished' by Jewellers.It begs the question why Schrade would "tool up" for such a small production and only in 1937....orrr were more produced after 1937 with the same tooling?....the lack of factual contemporary literature could mean they were not only produced in 1937 simply because several known examples had 1937 on handle. I know at least one that didn't...mine for a start. I wonder if Alberts gold calendar had 1937?
...

A lot of scenerios are possible as to the origins of the calendar knives. Supposition is useful in suggesting avenues of inquiry while looking for facts.

One "fact" I am having a hard time accepting at face value is the interpretation of "CPC" to be literally "Calculating Perpetual Calendar". That long name for the type does not appear on the knife or in the title of Mr. Sargent's illustration. I've never seen any original packaging or advertisements. Is it like the name "blood grooves" being used to describe the fullering on a knife, an invention of convenience by collectors?

We do know for fact that the MDS on that knife is in fact a monogram with the initials of M. D. Stone because we have the associated purse with that expanded identification in gold foil embossing. So how is it that we know for fact that the CPC does not also represent a monogram, if not for an individual (so many produced with this monogram indicates this is not the case), but for a company or organization? A quick search of anacronyms for "CPC" turned up an extensive though very incomplete list. As you can see from the inclusion of modern technology in the list, it hardly reflects the bredth of possibilities available in the years preceeding WWII.

I would be very much interested in viewing any documentation of the name as factual. Documentation, to be valid in my opinion, should be from the same era as the production of the subject knives by Schrade, or by the jeweler. Magazine, NY Times, catalog or flyers? How about a design patent on the calendar knife itself?

Searching out obscure facts on knife patterns is fun and interesting. For me, it has nothing to do with the market value of the knife. I could care less about that myself, just as many people could care less for the pattern itself, being a relatively uninteresting and, except for the curio design of the calendars, plane jane el-cheapo fob knives. I personally find the plain smooth surfaced version of the two to be more to my tastes. If I ever run across one at what I consider a reasonable price (I am not a seller of knives), I will buy it and take pleasure in the ownership. Meanwhile, what are the facts?

Michael
 
Larry, I don't think the Latama is even a contender here. After a close inspection of the pics, I can see a couple of glaring differences between the Latama and the CPC/MD Stone knives. The Latama calendar comes to within what looks like a 1/32" of the bottom of the handle, the CPC/Stone calendars end a lot higher to incorporate the nail nick (which the Latama lacks). Also, the days of the week window extends slightly beyond the actual calendar on the Latama. whereas on the CPC/Stone knives, it almost lines up perfectly.

Eric
 
G'Day Mr. Russell, Do you subscribe to the theory that Schrade may have only made the skeleton's and if so how many may have been produced and only in 1937? What is your knowledge of Waldamar's if I may ask?
Indeed are you offering the opinion my knife is as authentic as the other known examples? I really appreciate your above comments. Thank You. Larry 303.
P.S. The value to me as a collector with some 1500 odd USA Schrades is furthering the knowledge/history of Schrade knives. Gold is gold is gold.....and will always remain gold..

I think you have a great knife with lots of information and if you never learn anymore, so what?
 
G'Day Codger, Following on from your question whether CPC actually stands for Calculating Perpetual Calendar could it be simply an emblem or advertising representing something like for example' Certified Practicing Conman' or the like and 1937 was the year they were being given away as gifts or whatever. Catalog E with Supplements Page 68 gives examples and discusses emblem knives and advertising etches promoted by Cut.Co. at that time.<consider the double whammy of one emblem promoted in that section being Ku Klux Klan emblem to be embellished in your favourite style of knife!>.....Question: If it was accepted that CPC actually represented the name of the knife style when has Schrade ever used another example of this in the next 70 years. I dont mean 'Old Timer' or 'Uncle Henry' branding I mean actually stating on the knife handle what it actually is.There may be many examples I just cant immediately think of any. This could indicate CPC actually stands for something else and it follows my knife in gold did not have to be part of some advertising program in 1937. There dont seem to have been many made and despite the question being raised on various forums about how many were actually made, no one seems to have the remotest idea.
I agree with Codger's contention in the absence of contemporary literature or knowledgeable comment/opinion ,that they were possibly NOT only made in 1937 and CPC may not stand for Calculating Perpetual Calendar at all. Sargents #2 did not refer to it by this full title and made no reference to the CPC meaning. Was the designated number F170 in Sargents consistant with any other production number at that time..I dont think so. Could all suppositions be just another Cow Pat waiting to be trod in? Wipe your boots Codger and tell us what you think?? I personally think there are still many more questions regarding this style than accurate answers. Hoo Roo
P.S. This unfolding story would make an excellent Chapter on its own in your Schrade History Book. Just tell me the ending.....
 
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I don't believe the Latama has anything to do with the SCC bladed CPC and MDS knives, except perhaps as an example of a cruder, later copy of the CPC / MDS design by a foriegn maker. The Latama design is not even close enough to either to be a candidate for reblading as a fake of either, if one has studied these three knives for even a few minutes.

The CPC and MDS appear to be close enough to each other to have been blanked from the same cover die, and stamped with the same calendar face die as well.

I must say that I have not personally held both knives together in my hands. But then... neither has anyone else but the makers, whoever they were.

Whoever they were? Shall I explain? I am using the scientific method to investigate these knives. As in archeology, physics, chemistry and dozens of other fields of scientific inquiry, first a set of questions are stated. Known, provable facts are matched where possible. And hypothosis are made as to the answers to the remaining questions. Each hypothosis is examined closely and answers are sought. Now, in order to use this method, one must keep an open mind. A closed mind will never find the true facts. Quite a few facts have already emerged. And some opinions put forward as fact are a great basis for forming the hypothesis.

My hypothesis? Both the CPC and MDS knives are waldemars, fob knives made by a jewery company or other third party using skeletons assembled and purchased from the Schrade brothers. The notation on page 68 of "Catalog E and Supplements" which Larry just mentioned points to the fact that the Schrade brothers knew and did business with custom jewelry makers, those who could design and provide custom emblems for their knives. It isn't a far stretch to think that their supplier might buy (or trade for) SCC skeletons for their own custom fob knives, particularly when they wanted to build items more "upscale" than could be made from Imperial Jackmaster skeletons. I am NOT saying they did so as a fact. I am not saying the knives were or were not made inside the walls of the Schrade Cutlery Company factory. But it is my theory that they were not.

Again, as Mr. Russell stated above, if nothing further is ever known about either knife, they are nice fob knives, and good finds for a collection.

Michael
 
Amazing how far we've all been able to at least advance hypothesis without an expert in the knife construction/ Schrade field who has been able to offer authenticated facts apart from Mr. B. Levine who, after viewing enlarged photos of my MDS, has stated in his opinion my knife has never been rebladed from original, and is definately not of Latama origin.As you have questioned Michael why no 'Patent' history?
Possibly the only way this history will ever now advance or reach plausable proven <supported by more than mere supposition> conclusion ,is to hear opinion from Mr. H Williams,Mr. D. Swinden or indeed Mr.B.Voyles.No Schrade history book could really ever be considered complete leaving this story at this stage,i.e. a designated Number F170 in a publication from 1989 supported by one 'front view only' black and white photo IMHO. Thanks for all your imputs and particularly Mr.A.G. Russell. Hoo Roo.

P.S. The fact there have now been 903 viewings alone on this single thread without counting the other 2 threads or other Forums concerning Calendar knives would indicate to me there is more then passing Schrade Collector interest in this style knife.....unless its merely been like a morbid gathering of sight see'ers at the scene of an accident!
 
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Why no 'Patent' history? Well, someone may have done a design patent search and turned up a prior patent too close for a new design patent to succeed, or it may have been filed and rejected by the examiner as "obvious to any one versed in the arts" of jewelry and knife design. THis is not to say that a patent does not exist. But it would take an exhaustive search (as opposed to a brief "novelty" search to ferret it out if it does exist. I'll conduct a novelty search and see what I can find, but I am not equipped or qualified to do an exhaustive search. There is always the possibility that it was just made and not patented. Patents and patent searches cost money and it may not have been considered cost efficient considering the apparently small quantities produced. It would be helpful if a patent number did appear on the covers. Have you crawled inside and looked at the liners? It might even be helpful if the Latama displayed a patent number, as it's patent might be by
license or at least refer to an earlier U.S. patent.

Michael
 
Im not sure I understand everything written here but well done regardless Larry, looks like you sorted it out and have one amazing knife, some collectors would go a whole lifetime to find one like that.
To me thats what collecting is all about to find that one knife that no one seems to know much about and then to find some info on it that is equally as rare. Well done on both counts.
Regards Tim
 
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Thanks Tim, I believe it has as much right to belong in the History of Schrade as any other genuine Schrade. It had quite a shakey introduction to this Forum for reasons that still remain beyond me however the attached photos will show its doing just fine in its new home.
Forum Member Ikedoc kindly sent me gratis a fine Oak box as he thought it required something befitting its Schrade status! Many thanks Ike it is much appreciated.
Paul,alias Sheathmaker gave me instructions on conditioning its old Alligator sheath and it now has a new lease on life and looks and feels great.Thanks Paul.
Codger drew my attention to an original 12K Gold Fob Chain which has patent #2.048.599 together with the marking M40-12K RGP stamped on both attachments. He was able to tell me that Patent was Issued July 21 1936 as Key Holder Patent by Inventor James M Collins and would have been contemporary to the Cut Co Calendar if the original owner M.D. Stone had followed the fashion trends at that time.
I am still of the opinion knowledgeable Schrade folk like Mr. Herman Williams will be able to further our knowledge of these rather unique knives. Hoo Roo
 

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Larry,

It is definitely one beautiful and unique knife. It looks great in it's new home.

Jackie
 
Larry, I humbly retract my statements pegging your watch knife as an ugly knife. The box and gold chain are very complimentary. That is a handsome display there.
 
Definately looks like the box was made just for that knife, along with the chain which brings a real cohesion to the set. Sweet!

Russell
 
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