Schrade

i have 6 of the new Taylor Schrades. the fit and finish and blades on 4 are very good, esp. the 97OT model. on 2, quite poor, esp. the 108, the blades are almost "tinny".
i have wondered if there are different manufacturing locations ?
in many posts here, irate members label all of these knives as "crap". perhaps their small sample came from the same site as my 2 "poor" ones.
Taylor Schrade is making some very good knives, and yes they edge hold as well as many of my other folders (at least 400, many brands).
to me they do not have a collectable "cache`". but Schrade USA pre 2004 sure does.
for the average non knife knut, Taylor Schrade is producing good useable knives at a fairly low price (but Rough Rider beats them both ways IMHO).
i do not think anyone has a right to slander Taylor Schrade even though they are understandably upset over the "passing" of Imperial Schrade Corp. roland
 
Having been lurking and posting from time to time and having observed rant after rant over Schrade USA versus Schrade under Taylor Brands, and I have come to a few conclusions that I feel compelled to share.

1. There is a lot of time and energy wasted about what is, what isn't, what should be, what could be.

2. After all that energy is wasted nothing has changed.

3. There are certain truths here:

a. Stewart Taylor owns the Schrade properties. He paid good money for them. The Schrade name does exist today.

b. To the best of my knowledge he had absolutely nothing to do with the demise of Imperial-Schrade Corporation. Not his fault.

c. I see a lot of anger directed to Taylor in this forum but see little to the people running Schrade at the time of the demise. Why are they not called to task as someone there had to have a hand with tanking it. Things always ran well when Albert was in charge.

d. Schrade knives made in China are Schrade knives. They are NOT Schrade USA knives, nor do they claim to be. If some idiot is trying to misrepresent something on the eguys that is fraud, and there are plenty of laws on the books to remedy that if it is really that important to you.

d. Imperial-Schrade Corporation is gone. And it is not coming back. Get over it.

4. No one, especially me, is suggesting in any way to collect anything that you do not want to collect. But that should also extended refrain from telling someone NOT to collect something. There are plenty of kids who may not be able to afford the older Schrade USA knives that will start with inexpensive Taylor-era Schrades and work up to Schrade USA knives in the future--and in turn raise the prices of Schrade USA knives for those of you holding quantities.

5. I believe in promoting the collecting of all knives. If we have one big problem within the knife field it is too few collectors. The more the merrier. I don't care what you collect, if you collect knives you're one of us! I encourage everyone to collect some kind of knife--and if a person should choose to collect a Taylor-era Schrade, that is his business (and nothing that I wish to discourage).

6. Back to the energy expended. Spend that energy on getting some kids and your friends to start collecting knives--any knives. Because that is how the whole thing grows, and spend less energy trashing each other.

7. There are NO bad knives, there are just some better than others.

8. This bugagoo about imports doesn't really hold water. Richards, IXL, and Rodgers were owned (and imported) by Imperial-Schrade, as were Jowika in Ireland. I toured the factory in Ellenville in the 80's (along with Herman Williams at the time) and noticed several stacks of boxes with import markings--and was told at the time that it was was household cutlery--in the Imperial-Schrade factory. I have also heard the rumor that Imperial-Schrade was considering a China made line BEFORE the demise of the factory. Which brings me to the question, if Imperial-Schrade had imported knives from China in the last year of manufacture would that be OK or would that be rant material as well?
 
G'Day Roland,I have approx 1400 genuine pre 2004 USA made Schrade knives and the fit finish and materials used is invariably better than the 3 chinese clones I inadvertantly purchased on Ebay because of misrepresentation by Ebay sellers.Without the Chinese product concentrating on the "look" of the original including box and knife these sellers misrepresenting their products as the original pre 2004 USA these types of sellers would not be able to do their business. The difference in my opinion between a USA and Taylor Chinese Schrade is not only the above but the apparent lack of quality control employed.
My first "Schrade" Sheeps horn Stockman made by Taylor in China I purchased which was misrepresented on Ebay as pre 2004 actually had the horn coming out at right angles to greet me as it came out of the box.It had "First Production Run" on blade and could well have included "First Production Run.. Forrest Run!"I purchased this knife as a potential collector thinking I had missed a variation Stockman with Sheeps horn Scales.
This knife could never have been examined prior to leaving the "factory" and will be a collector only as an oddity.
I believe Codger remains one of the fairest most balanced posters on this Schrade Collectors USA of pre 2004 produced knives.."Forum".I value his contributions and do not wish to see him intimidated from posting historical anecdotes on this forum by Commercial interests who happen to be producing a current product with no relevance to this forum apart from the minefield created with Schrade Collecting because of their product.
Joe with all due respect.. you may tell me and Codger it is not a "nostalgia mark" to have a Walden USA Tang mark on a non Walden USA knife but I beg to differ.You may tell me it is not "nostalgia" or somewhat misrepresentative to have a clone knife in a genuine Schrade Tin or original Tube however as a Collector of the real deal I say bunkum mate. IMHO Canal Street knives can lay more legitimate claim to continueing Schrade" quality "and history than a Chinese made clone of an original.
Codger please keep telling it' like it is' mate and not how Commercial interests would perhaps like it to be. Respected Schrade Authority Richard Langston has stated on AAPK that he is now co-operating..will you also??? Hoo Roo from Oz.
 
HERE HERE I'll drink to that Larry303. Ifi'n it wern't for you fellars I'd be a lost okie in a snow storm AAhh maybe a rain storm UGH tornado!!!
 
Joe Byrd said:
Mr. Codger

I just wanted to take a moment and introduce myself. I am the Public Relations, and Advertising person for Smith and Wesson Knives, Schrade Knives and Taylor Brands LLC.

As a part of my duties I keep in touch with news publications, outdoor media, giving them information on the above named brands. I just came across your post through one of my ripping sources, and some of your statements are inaccurate as to the status of the company. I humbly submit to you the following information so that you more informed the next time you post.

Yes, the Imperial Schrade Company filed bankruptcy in 2004, and yes Stewart Taylor d.b.a Taylor Brands LLC purchased the entire Intellectual Properties of that company at the bankruptcy auction. Your statement that these are “nostalgia marks” is not true. Stewart Taylor and Taylor Brands LLC owns the Schrade Trademarks, and by law can use those trademarks in any fashion he desires.

Furthermore, Mr. Taylor has done USA manufacturing in Johnson City, Tennessee and at his Kingsport, Tennessee distribution center.

You refer to Mr. Taylor as a merchant, when in fact he is a true manufacturer by the definition in Websters Dictionary, because he owns facilities off shore. So, he is indeed a manufacturer.

How can you refer to the knives as copies when Mr. Taylor legitimately owns the trademarks, patents, copyrights, trade dress on all of the Schrade patterns.

I would like to invite you to come visit with me in our facility, to learn more about our organization. Mr. Taylor is a very nice person, and always takes time to meet with any visitors.


Joe Byrd
Click to expand...

Nice to hear from you Joe. I appreciate your taking the time to give us your viewpoint. "Ripping" is a new term for me, but I assume it is like a search "bot".

Reviving trademarks, patents and copyrights (lawfully purchased and owned, of course) is not a new thing. It is confusing to collectors who look for knives made by a parent company they specialize in, such as Imperial Schrade (and the companies in the continuous family tree). But a revived trademark is a "nostalgia mark". The parent company no longer exists. I have several knives with the mark "New York Knife Company". It is a nostalgia mark since the manufacturer no longer exists. The owner of the mark (SMKW, I think but I have not done a USPTO search on this one) contracted with Imperial Schrade to make these knives. These are real Imperial Schrades with SFO features such as genuine stag handles, and in patterns NYKC never dreamed of. Wait...SMKW contracted with ISC, but ISC subcontracted one or more of these patterns to Camillus Cutlery. So those patterns are real Camillus knives, SFO for ICS, SFO for SMKW. But the NYKC marking is still a nostalgia mark. Oh yes, SMKW (or Pipes personally?) owns the mark, bought and paid for fair and square, and may use it as he sees fit. And I sincerely doubt he had anything to do with the bankrupting of NYKC. Fuller brothers? I can't remember off the top of my head.

I am sure that Mr. Taylor is just as you and others have described. Friendly, personable and a gentleman. I do not disput that in any way or suggest that he or anyone else had anything to do with the series of calamities that caused ISC to go bankrupt. Anyone truly interested in my personal take on those causes need only search the forum archives.

I am surprised to learn that some manufacturing is done by TBLLC in the Kingsport warehouse and in Johnson City? I had not heard of this. All of the knives I have seen were etched or stamped "China". Perhaps this is secondary process work? Assembly or packaging? Do they do blanking, grinding, heat treat, molding, cutlering and finishing? Well, I do find this interesting. And would indeed like to see/hear more.

I call the knives copies because they are. They are not knives made by Imperial Schrade, or even for Imperial Schrade by another manufacturer. Yes, of course he has a right to make them. And so do a lot of other makers where the pattern was never patented. Such as the Sharpfinger. The name was a registered trademark, but the design wasn't protected. The Deerslayer had a Henry Baer design patent, but it is far, far expired and I could make that pattern in my garage and sell them, though not with the Schrade mark.

Perhaps the term "replica" fits better. I don't really know for sure which term is best. But the knives are. in my own personal opinion, Taylors. Assuming he owns the factory in China? I don't know about that because the source for the knives has never been identified, as far as I know. And none of the literature I have which came with my Taylor knives identifies the materials used. That isn't that uncommon anymore in the industry though.

Copy. Hmmm. Replica. OK, I buy a copy of a 1921 Sears catalog and then buy from Sears the copyright to it. I reproduce that book and market it. Is it an original? A copy? A replica? Does better or worse quality of materials or printing change that? Or where it was printed, here or Asia?

I do agree that the proliferation of knife collectors is very important to knife makers and merchants alike. Afterall, how many knives does one person need? (my wife asks me this question quite often). Promoting the hobby does serve the interests of the industry. And if my own research posted here, the questions we answer here don't promote the hobby, I don't know what does.

I am not an expert on knives. Or on Imperial Schrade. I've never worked in the cutlery industry in any capacity and probably never will. My own interest in the knives and products of Imperial Schrade etc. is from a historical perspective. And as I am able, to help collectors such as myself recognize the knives, etc. made by that company and their relevance to it's history. I often make mistakes (such as you pointed out about TBLLC actually being a manufaturer), and welcome corrections.

The owner of this forum should be contacted if you wish to sponsor a Taylor Brands forum. This has been mentioned by moderators here before. As of this time, this forum is self-moderated and exists for collectors of pre-October 2004 Imperial Schrade Corp. knives and their ancestors as a service by the owner. Imperial Schrade Corp. sponsored the predecessor forum and provided a moderator before July 2004.

I may yet make it up to Kingsport for a tour. It sounds interesting.

Michael
 
Here is the Richard Langston aapk post, When you quote out of context you get a different meaning ,imho I dont think this says anything about "co-operating"

"I have been receiving several inquires regarding this announcement

Schrade Cutlery Collectors Society Formed
As I mentioned in an earlier post there was an announcement at the 2008 SHOT
show that should be of interest to Schrade collectors. Here is a short
version of the press release:

The 2008 Shooting, Hunting, and Outdoor Trade show marked the debut of the
Schrade Cutlery Collectors Society, a new collectors club dedicated to the
preservation of the history and heritage of Schrade Cutlery and its related
companies.
While not a part of Taylor Brand's Schrade Cutlery, the Society does begin
with the current owner's full encouragement--including his taking a seat on
the society's Board of Advisors, which also includes Kevin Pipes, President
of Smoky Mountain Knife Works, and Schrade author Richard Langston. Other
announcements of members to this board will be announced soon.
Executive Director of the organization is Debra Voyles, whose background in
knives includes being National Secretary of the National Knife Collectors
Association as well as show manager of the Blade Show & Cutlery Fair from
its inception in 1982 until 1993.
"The Schrade history is a history of cutlery in America, ranging from the
19th century until today, encompassing some of the most famous names that
have ever made knives: New York Knife, Walden Knife Company, Ulster,
Schrade, and many others. We feel only through organization and promotion
can we continue to preserve that heritage," Voyles said, "and that is what
the Society is going to do.
Membership will include a subscription to the revived "Schrade Almanac" and
other benefits.
Membership fees or contact information are not included with this post so
there will not be any confusion that this is an announcement rather than a
solicitation.

I have decided to post this thread to explain my actions and what little I know about the project. I was contacted several weeks ago by Bruce Voyles who invited me to be on the advisory board of this venture. I have been active in the study and history of the cutlery industry in this country and especially the Hudson Valley in NYS for well over 50 years. Upon retiring from active duty as a NYS peace officer I was an antiquarian and historian for Schrade as well as a spokeman for them at some East coast Consumer shows. I have also written on this history and these items. I have also been quite negatively vocal regarding the present imported Chinese products which now carry the Schrade name. I also have expounded on why Schrade went under and the nefarious dealings which caused there demise. I have also made a vivid point in the Rape of the Schrade company knife collection how it happened and who the players were and the parts they played.

Originally Schrade had a company forum on Blade forums. I started posting there to try to interject some history into what was then mainly a place for Schrade to show there current products. The person in charge of this site was Tim Faust who was an executive employee with Schrade, who I knew. As the company Schrade exited the site morphed into a kind of its own kind of Schrade club. Eventually due to a point of honor ( as old fashioned as it sounds ). I left bladeforums and do not post there and have not for several years. I did this of my own accord due to my own beliefs in right and wrong and really do not wish to rehash it however it has come to my attention ( some emails since I do not seem to be able to get into blade forums since I stopped my subscription) that there has been some question on Blade forums as to why I have agreed to take part in this project especially in light of some of the others who are involved such as Mr Pipes ( who bought the Schrade collection under circumstances which I have explained in the past and will not go into again ) and Mr Taylor who now owns the rights to Schrade and produces the Chinese version ( Which I do not own any of ). So in light of all of this I am using this venue ( which by the way was created by Bryan, and woofer and Phil so that in lieu of my self ordained exile, due to my outdated sense of honor I would have a place to babble with the nice folks at AAPK ). We do not or at least have not had any problems since Knife Lore was established.

All that being said here are the reasons . At first I was hesitant I then spoke to several people who are perhapes the most knowledgable and well known in the field. There recommendations were that the positive aspect was that if I had input I would be able to direct content and insure that it does what it says ie “preservation of the history and heritage of Schrade Cutlery and its related companies “"The Schrade history is a history of cutlery in America, ranging from the
19th century until today, encompassing some of the most famous names that
have ever made knives: New York Knife, Walden Knife Company, Ulster,
Schrade, and many others. We feel only through organization and promotion
can we continue to preserve that heritage," Voyles said, "and that is what
the Society is going to do.

If this is indeed the goal of the project than it is exactly what I have been trying to do for years. If it is not then at least I will be in a position to try to correct it or dispute it. “ In order to guard the hen house you have to be able to get in it. “ That being said I have no reason to not believe the motivation is not exactly what is being claimed.

For those of you who do not know for the last 7 years I have been trying to change the switchblade law in NYS to allow the exhibition of these artifacts . I helped write the bill which was passed into law this year. We have also gotten an allocation from the town of Warwasing ( Ellenville where Schrade was located) and are in the process of establishing a non profit company for the establishment of a museum so that this great American history of the true American spirit can be preserved. I have learned much from these endeavors the main thing being that it is expensive. Knowledge, artifacts and credentials do not mean didilly without the backing.

Is Taylor involved so that he can sell more knives I would say you can bet on it. Is Pipes involved simply to be magnanimous ( I would say you would have to be crazy to think so ). However whatever there motivation they have the ability to make the memory and history of schrade a presence in fact they may well be the only way it will become sustainable in the future. Regarding Stuart Taylor He contacted me a couple of years ago he had read about a Schrade memorial exhibition I did in the Resnick Museum in Ellenville regarding Schrade. He offered me some artifacts that he had gotten by virtue of buying the Schrade IP intellectual property ( Schrade rights) that he had no use for . He did not have to do that ( these items are now safe for posterity) and I appreciate it we took a truck and trip to TENN and I found Mr Taylor to be a genuine gentleman. He asked if I would be interested in doing a book for him on Schrade . I refused on the point that I did not agree with Schrades being made in China. ( Again my old fashioned attitude). So I turned down the money. When I said this Mr Taylor said to me that he did not particularly enjoy selling Chinese knives with an old American company name but like he pointed out he was a knife importer, not a knife maker and Americans will buy from whoever can sell the least expensive with the same quality. Americas position on tariffs for over 200 years and all those nasty little rice burners with names like Mitsubishi certainly supports his statement. I feel that his desire to be a part of this project and this statment “While not a part of Taylor Brand's Schrade Cutlery, the Society does begin with the current owner's full encouragement--including his taking a seat on the society's Board of Advisors, “ Shows a positive attitude and certainly deserves a chance.

By the way I am still waiting to hear what will be expected of me as my duties now that I have acquired this esteemed position . All I did was accept and have not been contacted since??????


Now in conclusion lets get to me whats in it for me SALARY OR ANY MONEY NONE, ZIP, NADA. GLORY yes all the glory of having to explain my actions and being once a again in the middle of another volatile public situation. AGGRAVATION Ah yes I am sure there will be plenty of that. My motivation for becoming involved is strictly to save this American history however as we all know no good deed goes unpunished so I am sure I will get what is coming to me. It is a little known fact that all of the signers of the declaration of Independence died impoverished or in some way broken however I believe that even if they knew that was to be there fate they still would have signed. LT"
W5rwu
 
Larry, that's why i wonder if the China Schrades are not all made at the same place; or if year of manufscture makes a difference. i realize that few if any of us care about this as they are not what we collect or are interested in.
but in the interest of fairness, they are not all bad.
PM me if you want and i'll send you my Taylor 97OT. compare it to a Schrade+/U.S.A. 97OT. fit, finish, smoothness of action, etc., all very similar.
roland
 
Thanks for reproducing the above W5rwu I trust you have his permission as he states he does not post here.
I was not aware Mr Voyles was actually Mr. Taylors second choice to write the book as Mr Langston states.
I would have thought it was "co-operating in the extreme" to accept the "esteemed position" without any knowledge of its expectations/requirements and is he still waiting to hear from them in this regard?
I was also not aware TBLLC was in fact manufacturing knives in the Kingsport warehouse and indeed Johnson City. Joe, will you allow Codger to take photos of the manufacturing plant to share with us here? I have a Schrade mate who lives near Johnson City.Its a great pity that even more USA Schrade knives were not being manufactured in Kingsport and Johnson City as I'm sure quality control would be formost in the cutlers minds.
Congratulations Bruce on your new grandchild my youngest daughter also had a grandaughter towards the end of last year,my fifth in fact from my three children.To me their innocence makes sense on a daily basis of current troubled world events and economies.I trust your book will be a ripper mate.
Thanks all for the contributions above this is what makes this forum great and impartial ...without the constant butt licking on other forums.Hoo Roo
 
w5rwu said:
"...When I said this Mr Taylor said to me that he did not particularly enjoy selling Chinese knives with an old American company name but like he pointed out he was a knife importer, not a knife maker..."
W5rwu
Click to expand...

Mr. Byrd, one of three people is obviously wrong, it appears. Either yourself, Mr. Taylor or Mr. Langston.

Michael
 
Larry 303,
To answer your question, Yes, w5rwu did have Mr. Langston's permission to post what he wrote AAPK here in BladeForums.

Mr. Langston is a man of his word. He gave his word that he would no longer post in this forum so that another member would stay in this forum.

Mr. Langston will not return to this forum until that other member will post publicly here, that Mr. Langston is no longer bound by his previous pledge not to post in BladeForums. Then, and only then, will Mr. Langston return to BladeForums.



It seems to me that people are spending a great deal of time here rehashing the same old issues. People seem to still be stuck on the issue of Chinese made knives. I don't think that anything written in any forum in the United States is going to have any impact at all on the importation of Chinese knives.
I rarely come to the Schrade forum of BladeForums anymore because there seems to be very little new information put forth. This thread is an excellent example, rehashing issues that are two years old and will not be resolved no matter how long they are debated.

I believe Taylor Brands LLC does make, or has had made, some knives here in the United States. I applaud this and I believe it is a move in the right direction, bringing jobs back to the United States. I imagine it was the profits from his Chinese made knives that allowed him to produce a few knives here in the United States. I certainly can't fault the gentleman for creating jobs here in the US.

TennKnifeman said:
I have also heard the rumor that Imperial-Schrade was considering a China made line BEFORE the demise of the factory. Which brings me to the question, if Imperial-Schrade had imported knives from China in the last year of manufacture would that be OK or would that be rant material as well?
Click to expand...

TennKnifeman brings up an interesting point, but it was far more than just rumor. Schrade did have knives made in China. The Badger series of knives that first appeared in Schrage 2003 catalog were made in China, with the exception of the SX4B, which was made in Ireland. Interestingly enough, I have yet to hear anyone rant about that series of knives. I have all but one of the patterns in the series and they are good-quality knives for the price, but they are stamped “CHINA.”

Respectfully submitted,
Dale
 
Discussion of Taylor's knives is welcome on Bladeforums, but it belongs in General Blade Discussion.

Let’s see if we can find the right forum …
attachment.php
 
Dale,If you rarely come to Schrade Forums now how on earth would you know "there seems to be very little new information put forth"?
I have seen more new information put forth in the last 6 months particularly by Codger than perhaps at any other time in the last 3 years.
Evidence of this is new chums who constantly join and actually have their questions answered unlike the 'the old boys club of butt lickers falling all over themselves to constantly ego stroke the few that need it elsewhere".
Codger is obviously proud but thankfully does not have the ego... it makes a world of difference to a forum think about the difference and you will know what I mean.. All offered willingly without the patronising and expectation.
I believe he does not need at this time Commercial Interests attempting an orchestrated intimidation to get him to alter his views of products he reviews mostly at a members request in the first instance.
I believe it would be a show of support and solidarity if other members also stated for once how they feel about his contributions or must we lose him too?
Good one Codger..keep it up mate!!!!! Hoo Roo
 
I have some older Schrade models like the bowie hunter and some older Old Timers. What I'm wondering is, are the Chinese ones any good?
 
certainly have to agree with Larry. there are many indepth posts here in recent times, with much revealed about Schrade, the company, its evolution and it's knives, with their variations explained. the Collectors of Schrades R.us has been added to with more pics. and catalogues and price lists.
also most importantly, it's friendly here. many members give of their time (some greatly so) to help out all who post here.
i get more out of this forum than just information on Schrade knives. roland
 
Larry303 said:
Thanks for reproducing the above W5rwu I trust you have his permission as he states he does not post here.
Yes I did have his permission , and if you would have looked would see he did not post I did! But of coarse you knew that!
W5rwu
Click to expand...
 
wow i never meant it to get outta hand here, but its nice to be popular hehe. I feel so appreciated
 
Good job Bitter1. It appears your thread became a nice opportunity pour a little kerosene in some smoldering embers. Very entertaining. Good time to go way back in some old threads and dig around a little deeper.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top