Scrap steel; I am still learning.

K

Kevin R. Cashen

Joined
Sep 9, 2003
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I swear to you folks that I wanted to eventually post pictures of this one to show how one can effectively use scrap steel on really nice knives. I decided on this next dagger that I wanted to used straight steel for the fittings and do some nice textural effects instead of damascus, so I started looking around for some stock in my shop but I had none in the right size inside except for some slightly oversized 1018 that I have just a little left of. Then I got an idea, hey why not use something from my scrap pile to show that I am not a totally closed minded pinhead when it comes to recycling steel! A really ornate and well done dagger using scrap steel for the quillons and pommel, how creative that would be in a totally benign way. So I found a rusty old bar just the right size in my scrap pile and went to work forging it into a rough shape and then I spheroidized it just to be safe for the machining operations (although this can make low carbon stuff “gummy” what the hey, better safe than sorry). I spent a couple of days working this thing and had at all slotted out for the tang and decided to heat it with the torch to do some adjustments before final fit…


dagguard.jpg


When I cleaned up the scale for the heating I found the cracks! I don’t know what this alloy is (I guess that is the whole point of this post) but it did not like being heated and air cooled around that machined slot! You can’t see it in the photo but all around the slot on the rough guard is a spider web of cracks in the steel, rendering it useless and wasting all the hours that went into getting it to that point.

I calmly (it took me many years to learn to do it calmly) walked into the other room of my shop and cut off the needed material from that bar of known 1018, all the while kicking myself for not listening to my own advice about mystery metal. I also chastised myself about the fact that when the dagger was done I was going to ask over $1,000 for it and I was too cheap to cut $0.75 cents worth of 1018 off from my bar. The second more finished guard is the 1018, which machined like a dream and was heated and manipulated as much as I needed with no problems.

My thought process got all messed up because it wasn’t blade material. Oh sure if it is the blade I will use nothing but the steels I can identify and know exactly how to heat treat, but the only criteria I had for the fittings was that it be soft enough to machine, but duhh… how can I know even that if I don’t know what it is? I still really do work with some scrap for certain projects but this is a lesson I just now learned about using unknown material even for the stuff I don’t intend to heat treat. I must stress that I am not telling anybody what to use, but if somebody can benefit from my lesson I thought I would share my bonehead move an allow others take from what they want.
 
Hehehe!! I've been playing w/ forging 304 stainless for guards. Anneal and cold work 'till it starts to get stiff, then re-anneal. Had one just about where I wanted it, just a little more......................

a little more.........................

OH SH%#, NICE CRACK!!!! :eek::mad:

Learning can be soooooo much fun!!!:D
 
"and I was too cheap to cut $0.75 cents worth of 1018 off from my bar."
Kevin, you know money was not the issue, you were having fun with it.:) Oh well! In the school of hard knocks the tuition is paid in hours. Drive a nail in the wall and hang it with the other diplomas.
Alden
 
This changes everything. I will not use that door hinge, that fell of the smithy, last week, as material for a new muti bar fighter I have been working on since last May.

I'll go with a slightly rusted RxR spike instead.

It is unusual for the teacher to admit to such a sophomoric mistake.

This gives you street cred, in my estimation.:D

Fred
 
just add that hilt into a damascus billet... since the normal rules the sticklers follow don't seem to apply for that..

for example.. mixing 2 or 3 known steels = an unknown steel/mystery laminate steel
-- unless they've got a ttt or ctt diagram for that damascus mystery steel..?
- so there are loopholes..

;)

ps.. you can count yourself lucky... one time i had some mystery wrought wagon wheel.. ..apparently the farmer musta parked that wagon close to the manure pile cause when i heated up that wrought in the forge, it was like tear gas..;)
- danger danger... hahaha
 
I have always strongly advised the careful matching of steels to be certain heat treating requirements will line up, but I sure would like to talk to those sticklers and find out how on earth they are somehow managing to get substitutional alloying atoms to diffuse like carbon in order to create a new mystery alloy. Or perhaps they just need to turn the blast down- way down, since liquid steel makes really boring damascus.:confused:

Whatever they do I still have a ruined guard and another that worked just as I expected, though I can't get the time, fuel and abrasives back that the first one ate before betraying me. :(
 
You're first mistake was not using that lawn mower blade in the corner of the garage....
 
Now see Kevin, if you had use steel from a KNOWN source, like a leaf spring or sawblade or bedframe, you would have been FINE, but nooooo YOU had to be selfish and save $.75!

:D

Seriously, when I started reading this I was waiting for the punchline to be an unexpected damascus guard of incomparable beauty, not you doing something that I would do in my shop :)

It also occurs to me that since we mostly hear from you regarding metallurgy and heat treatment, it's easy to forget sometimes that you're also a consummate craftsman in the work you do ASIDE from heat treating your blades. How about some in-progress shots of some of your OTHER knifemaking skills from time to time Kevin? Nobody will argue the science of your particular method of guard fitting or dagger grinding, and I for one always love to see how a master gets from point A to point B.

Not making light of your lost time and effort, but it is good to know you're human like the rest of us. Now, go crack a nice IPA and relax. You made two guards for that dagger...you've earned it :)

-d
 
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actually.. Mn segregation does have a dramatic effect on CTT behavior... "development of microstructural banding in low alloy steel with simulated Mn segregation" by Majka,Matlock, Krauss..

they simulated the banding with a series of laminates low Mn/High Mn

i realize the substitutional atoms move slow (even had the formula here somewhere when i was lookin up stuff on banding )

even the carb moving around.. does cause an effect.. or how much carb moved... then add weld boundaries in it.. to me, damascus starts lookin a heck of alot like mystery steel.. haha

i know i know... just being overly picky...

just thought i'd be fun to start abit of dialogue on it..... its usually when others will chime in and i get to learn some new stuff:thumbup:

well.. whats the use... i like all steels anyhow, mystery, damascus, wootz, bloom, and even stainless (for fittings );)
 
That sucks! :thumbdn: I feel for you man...

I too would like to see a bit more of how you get from point A to point B...
Any other shots of that dagger blade?
Mace
 
Alden Sherrodd said:
...In the school of hard knocks the tuition is paid in hours. Drive a nail in the wall and hang it with the other diplomas.
Alden
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I could do that! I have several things hanging around my shop intended to continually rub my own nose I my past stupidity. I have some of the first blades I ever made stuck in the rafters of my forging area so that they literally hang over my head while I work on new knives. When I am tempted to call things good enough I simply look up and cringe then keep on pounding. I also have a sign above my main work bench that says “heat treat your fittings stupid!” due to my nasty tendency to forget some of the quirky ways I do that some hardware and forgetting to compensate for them.

TekSec said:
You're first mistake was not using that lawn mower blade in the corner of the garage....
Click to expand...
I tried! But lawnmowers blades were too thin for the work so I would have to stack and weld several together, and that brings me right back to damascus.

Greg Obach said:
...they simulated the banding with a series of laminates low Mn/High Mn

i realize the substitutional atoms move slow (even had the formula here somewhere when i was lookin up stuff on banding )

even the carb moving around.. does cause an effect.. or how much carb moved... then add weld boundaries in it.. to me, damascus starts lookin a heck of alot like mystery steel.. haha...
Click to expand...

Hmmm, at what scale and how many layers? One can almost homogenize after enough folds, but both of our view points support the idea of not looking at damascus as a product instead of a process, thus not only do we have infinite combinations, we have infinite layer counts. Or are you suggesting that 20 layer billet is to be considered as homogenized as a 600 layer? How much of the substitutional elements, including Mn, do you suggest those 20 layers will share equally after the three or so solid state welds required? That formula should tell you, as well as the formulas to quickly predict the effects of carbon content on A1 (you can find that, as well as A1 according to the other elements in some of Krauss's other books). And if they are sharing those elements... why did the cited study use them to simulate alternating banding??:confused: And here all these years I thought that contrast was due to Mn, Cr or Ni staying relatively put, I guess I am still learning, hmmmm.

So if we start out with two alloys of known chemistry and have all of these formulas to predict how things will move if we have that chemistry, and even how they will react to thermal treatments based upon those numbers, (bear with me I am just trying to wrap my mind around this), the most logical thing to do is remove that chemistry information from the equation and work with total unkowns? And here I am also confused, did Krauss and associates know the exact chemistry of the alloys used or did they just plug some fun numbers into their work with two steels they found in a dumpster?

Jeez Greg I wanted you to play the violin for me not play devils advocate. :(Common guys I have a trashed guard, isn’t this where you have a pity party for me about my loss? ;) Folks show their @#$&-ups here all the time and don’t get pulled into a metallurgical quagmire. I want equality dammit, I want more “That sucks!”, (thanks Mace) and “Wow, sorry to see that”.

deker said:
...How about some in-progress shots of some of your OTHER knifemaking skills from time to time Kevin? Nobody will argue the science of your particular method of guard fitting or dagger grinding, and I for one always love to see how a master gets from point A to point B...
Click to expand...

An excellent point! Perhaps we will need to change the age old etiquette rule to include religion, politics and metallurgy, as I get less grief mentioning the first two:confused: Deker and Mace, I have several dagger blades and a rapier in progress in my shop right now, but those step by step photo things, while very cool and fun, are a pain in the neck and a real time eater. But since I’m not going the get any sympathy from callous unfeeling monsters like Greg :D what would you like to know about the process?
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Common guys I have a trashed guard, isn’t this where you have a pity party for me about my loss? ;) Folks show their @#$&-ups here all the time and don’t get pulled into a metallurgical quagmire. I want equality dammit, I want more “That sucks!”, (thanks Mace) and “Wow, sorry to see that”.
Click to expand...

Maybe secretly we all like to see those we've placed on pedestals fall just a little bit so we can feel just a hair closer to the masters :) It still sucks though ;)
 
:D:D:D

Kevin, i feel for ya... don't worry, nothing has changed in the real world... with some of the steel i deal with, its the challenge to create hardcore segregtion and they break up enough of it through forge cycles and such to get the " swoopy patterns "..... so things do eventually move ... but your correct about not being stressed over it or stressed over that banding bliz blaz.. or even the comparison of that to patternweld stuff

but..

i find it interesting that the people that require this high level when concerning mono virgin steels from the mill with spec's do look the otherway a little when it comes to patternwelding.. even though a proper mix of steels should be nothing to worry about... my question is where did their ethic go concerning steels... since it was once tied to having a spoon feed ttt/ctt ....
- maybe a small inconsistency.. but i'm pointing it out... and taking a stand.... dammit, fight the power... !!!

hey look over there....is that ed bagley jr driving a segway...

( while the unruly mob scouts for that doofus on wheels, Greggy exercises his right to a quick and stealthy egress... hahaha...works everytime ;)

email comin;)
 
Alden Sherrodd said:
In the school of hard knocks the tuition is paid in hours. Drive a nail in the wall and hang it with the other diplomas.
Alden
Click to expand...

Kevin R. Cashen said:
I could do that! I have several things hanging around my shop intended to continually rub my own nose in my past stupidity.
Click to expand...

Heh. Early in my career as a printing press operator, I very carely set the width of the punch rings (rotary male/female dies for making lineholes, for pinfed computer printer paper) with a nice steel rule. Got 'em just right and was quite proud of myself. All smug and happy, I fired up the web-fed press... BANG! CRUNCH! Guess who left the steel rule laying on the web right before the punch-rings? :eek:

I spent the next 20 minutes changing blown punches and dies, and the next time I was up for a review, my boss just laid the rule on the desk and grinned at me. As far as I know, that nicely-perforated rule is still hanging on the wall in that shop. :o
 
Kevin,
I personally would like to see a little insight on how you design and layout one of your daggers...maybe some tips on how to keep everything straight,crisp,and clean. I could go on, but don't want to drive you crazy...I'll leave that to Matt G.!;)
Thanks very much!
Mace

J.T., Amusing story, but I fail to see how screwing up a machine by leaving a metal ruler in it compares to the feeling of loss after spending countless hours of hand craftmanship on something only for it to fail in the end.
 
Kevin, that sucks!
I'd personally like to see a progress on that rapier project

Thanks for sharing the mistake, I wouldn't have even thought scrap for gaurds could be a problem, so I probably would have made the identical mistake (just not as well)

-Page
 
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