Scrap steel; I am still learning.

[Kevin R. Cashen]

J.T., Amusing story, but I fail to see how screwing up a machine by leaving a metal ruler in it compares to the feeling of loss after spending countless hours of hand craftmanship on something only for it to fail in the end.

I can see where the portions of humble pie it serves up would be similar. however

Kevin,
I personally would like to see a little insight on how you design and layout one of your daggers...maybe some tips on how to keep everything straight,crisp,and clean. I could go on, but don't want to drive you crazy...I'll leave that to Matt G.!
Thanks very much!
Mace.

Oh I see, is somebody looking forward to a certain project that may have use for such information?.

Since I decided a few years back to specialize in daggers and rapiers for a while, and study what they were really all about and how the originals were put together, I asked the ABS last year if they would like me to do some lectures on that topic, they agreed and now my dagger lecture is probably my most done and best attended, I will be doing it again in a week and a half at the Piney Woods Hammer-in in Arkansas.

Just remember that daggers are all about symmetry, when you have four identical blade bevels, shoulders and plunges anything not identical from side to side will look much worse than if it were on a single edged blade. I approach my design more and more a from the original 16th and 17th century daggers I have studied, those guys really knew what they were doing when it came to making a fighting knife. Don’t be afraid of making it thicker at the ricasso, this allows for more distal taper. Not only does that make a good stiff blade (essential for a real dagger) but it makes the tapering and the definition of the mid rib more pronounced. A thin blade makes the blade angles shallow and makes your job of keeping that midline crisp and straight much more difficult. Please, please, please use profile taper as well as distal taper, I personally feel that a MS judge should be able to fail a dagger that has parallel side down the length of the blade. what I mean is taper the width as well as the thickness, if your dagger is 1” at near the ricasso and 1” just a little bit form the tip it is just not correct for a dagger and looks rather amateurish. And the real kicker is that it is harder to do you distal taper on one of those parallel sided monstrosities. If your profile tapers the bevels are approaching at converging angles at the tip, so that they will naturally undercut each other in the grind and automatically form a beautiful distal taper.

I also think we should be able to fail “quillon”, daggers that only have little ½” turned knobs for “quillons”, as they do not serve the function of the knife whatsoever, and let’s face it the maker took the easy way out. The extended cross guard on quilloned daggers were for catching and locking the opponents blade those little nubs can’t do that. But everybody can breath easy on this one as the ABS set the standards for the dagger, not I. They are the ones you have to satisfy and they have very different ideas about the quillon dagger than I do. But I would be pulling for anybody who made wide quillons, and I would be cheering for those who turned them downward toward the blade, which adds significantly to the challenge of symmetry.

Grind your profile first and get your ricasso entirely squared and level. Then a quick and easy way to check fro straight and symmetrical is lay the blade on a long sheet of paper and trace all the way around the outside- tang and all, then flip it over and see where it doesn’t match the tracing anymore. Mark those high spots and grind it accordingly until you match the next tracing exactly. Then from truing up the ricasso lengthwise on the platen you should have a flat line going down the blade at the center, LEAVE THAT THERE! Lay out your center line on it and then grind to it, but do not actually touch it until the later polishing operations finally have the bevels meet and erase it. If you are not really good on the grinder, use a file guide and a round file to cut in all of your plunge cuts and then smooth them out with a 220X belt.

These daggers where the quintessential blade of the renaissance, remember this when designing them, the golden mean was all the rage in European design, the more you work it into the proportions of the blade, the more European renaissance that blade will look. When you are stuck on how long or wide you want to make something just remember 1:1.618, (it makes for a great ricasso).

I also think many mosaics and complex composites look like hell on these blades. These are some of my favorite blades in the world and I have a desire to see them done elegantly and tastefully, simple twists patterns and ladders look smashing on these blades! Besides, if you go with a composite you had better keep it TOTALLY symmetrical. If I saw a welded on edge that was totally out of whack from the other side I would indeed write “no” on the applicants card whether the other judges agreed or not.

Beware of helical grinds! The most common distortion on a dagger blade is a twist in the bevels, be it from grinding or heating. One of the first things I do with a dagger is point the tip straight at my eye and sight down the blade to see of the edges match up with the middle of the exact ricasso block down their entire length, if they don’t it will be very easy to see looking at it like this.

So can I scare you in any other ways?

 

[the possum]

Thanks for discussing some of the design issues on daggers, Kevin! Quillion daggers are a bit later than my personal time frame of interest, but I still love seeing the functional aspects broken down (since most of us don't use them on a daily basis any more).

Here's a link to the first page of the gallery of originals at MyArmory: http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=14 There's bound to be some inspiration in there somewhere.

One other thing I keep noticing is how the pommels on originals seem much larger than many made today.

 

[Mace]

Kevin,
Yes, I am looking ahead...and I see a dagger in my future. I have to admit I was working on one for this year, but the bladesmithing gods decided it was not to be.
Thank you for the quick lesson...sure would like to sit in on one of your dagger talks.:thumbup:

I have been looking at a lot of daggers this past year or so...a lot of MS daggers, but I think looking at some originals would be of great benefit.
Can you recomend some reference material?
Thanks
Mace

 

[deker]

An excellent point! Perhaps we will need to change the age old etiquette rule to include religion, politics and metallurgy, as I get less grief mentioning the first two Deker and Mace, I have several dagger blades and a rapier in progress in my shop right now, but those step by step photo things, while very cool and fun, are a pain in the neck and a real time eater. But since I’m not going the get any sympathy from callous unfeeling monsters like Greg what would you like to know about the process?

Well, I'm a bit late to the party with your reply to this already, so I'll address only things you haven't touched on yet. I recently had the pleasure of looking at some period daggers up close, and learned a good bit from just getting to handle them. Some questions I have though:

- I get the reason for long quillions, but how short is too short and how long is too long?
- What's the purpose of the "little hoopy thing" (for lack of a better term) on one side of some dagger guards? What's the real name?
- Large pommels were mentioned already, but am I correct in assuming that these were to balance the weight of the much thicker stock used than I see many folks using today?
- Why won't the ABS let a guy do a traditional wire-wrapped handle? Oh, wait, that's not a really a question you can answer....

-d

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Well, I'm a bit late to the party with your reply to this already, so I'll address only things you haven't touched on yet. I recently had the pleasure of looking at some period daggers up close, and learned a good bit from just getting to handle them. Some questions I have though:

- I get the reason for long quillions, but how short is too short and how long is too long?
- What's the purpose of the "little hoopy thing" (for lack of a better term) on one side of some dagger guards? What's the real name?
- Large pommels were mentioned already, but am I correct in assuming that these were to balance the weight of the much thicker stock used than I see many folks using today?
- Why won't the ABS let a guy do a traditional wire-wrapped handle? Oh, wait, that's not a really a question you can answer....

-d

Quillon length would be a matter of techniques with the rapiers of the period, you will notice an evolution in shapes and sizes over time. Today the length and shape, of course is more a matter of what looks good. Sometimes I make several drawings of the same dagger with the quillon lengths differing in length by .25" to determine which one looks best. I have also made guards of modeling clay to see what has the bet proportions.

The ring on the guards, which were more common that often depicted, were for added protection but I also have to believe they played a critical role in leverage against a rapier blade with the quillons. The old fighting school manuals of the period often show the thumb placed though the loop and on the indexed hollow in the ricasso. However since I have seen many later daggers with a pierced panel filling the loop I must assume that it eventually just became hand protection, much like the intricate swept hilts evolved in simple cups.

The counter balance concept for the pommel is overrated in my view. I think the size ans shape was more a matter of how it would keep the dagger in the user hand in combat and assist in leverage when catching a blade.

Most of the ideas for the ABS quillon dagger came from Bill Moran's interpretation as seen pictured on their web site for the master smith requirements. But I have seen some of the most beautiful shapes and methods used in all wire for the originals that I intend on doing some in the near future. Since I already did the ABS thing and can do my own thing now .

 

[James_Terrio]

This info about daggers is fascinating. I'm just curious, what did they quench their blades in back in the day? This question comes from historical curiousity ONLY!

 

[deker]

<snip lots of useful information in the interest of saving space>

Thanks for the fill-in Kevin. I'm becoming more enamored of historical pieces as I learn more about them and get to see more examples. In particular when I see work done that would be a real pain with modern tools, much less without them.

Most of the ideas for the ABS quillon dagger came from Bill Moran's interpretation as seen pictured on their web site for the master smith requirements. But I have seen some of the most beautiful shapes and methods used in all wire for the originals that I intend on doing some in the near future. Since I already did the ABS thing and can do my own thing now .

I know the reason, I was just kind of wishing out loud. PLEASE do make sure to post pics of your more traditional dagger work as you do it. I know I'm not the only one who's interested in seeing it.

I recently had a chance to take a hands-on look at some period daggers at a hammer-in and was just amazed at several things about them. I've got a few pictures that somebody else took for me (I didn't have my camera...doh!) here. I particularly like the one with the pierced blade and longitudinally fluted handle...it's really inspiring.

This raises another question. Do you know what materials might have been used for the handle shape under the wire wrap?

Thanks again for sharing Kevin

-d

 

[the possum]

Deker-
Those look like some sweet pieces! I can't imagine getting to handle so many pieces like that outside of a museum. By the way, was that Satanic dagger shown in Bernard Levine's forum here before?

The ring on the guards, which were more common that often depicted, were for added protection but I also have to believe they played a critical role in leverage against a rapier blade with the quillons. The old fighting school manuals of the period often show the thumb placed though the loop and on the indexed hollow in the ricasso. However since I have seen many later daggers with a pierced panel filling the loop I must assume that it eventually just became hand protection, much like the intricate swept hilts evolved in[to] simple cups.

The counter balance concept for the pommel is overrated in my view. I think the size ans shape was more a matter of how it would keep the dagger in the user hand in combat and assist in leverage when catching a blade.

A ring guard on one side of the hilt was used for hand protection on swords and other weapons for a long time prior to these daggers, as well. (I'm sure you know that, just sayin') For instance look at the simple side block or shell guards on messers & later falchion.

Likewise I'd also lean towards a large pommel mainly being used simply to help lock the thing in your grip. Look at rondel daggers, or even ballock or kidney daggers from earlier periods. They often had big disc shaped pommels that probably didn't add as much weight as these quillion daggers, so probably less done for "balance".

 

[the possum]

I'm just curious, what did they quench their blades in back in the day? This question comes from historical curiousity ONLY!

Bernard Levine has shared some of his translations from "The Art of the Cutler", which was written by Jean Jacques Perret in 1771. http://www.knife-expert.com/links.htm#perret I'm not sure if that's too late or if the tecniques would be similar enough to earlier periods. I don't think Bernard translated the whole chapter on hardening & tempering blades, but the author does touch on that subject a bit in others- in the chapter on forging damascus he mentions quenching in water and tempering blades to various colors for different tasks. But again, this is damascus made with steel and iron, so I don't know if they did it the same for straight steel blades.

 

[James_Terrio]

Wow, great link, possum. Thank you.

 

[deker]

Deker-
Those look like some sweet pieces! I can't imagine getting to handle so many pieces like that outside of a museum. By the way, was that Satanic dagger shown in Bernard Levine's forum here before?

I couldn't tell you really. It was a fantastic piece though. The owner said he had seen similar pieces before though.

-d