SD equipment on the job

[SM24]

If possible, Sierra912 and others might expand upon advice Sierra offered in another thread.
It was something like, "DO NOT carry or use an SD item or weapon on the job unless authorized by your employer. If you violate this precept, you will lose any way you cut it."

First, what exactly is meant by "you will lose any way you cut it." Do you mean an unauthorized weapon is somehow worse legally in an SD situation than some other kind? Or do you mean you will lose job-wise? (an employer having no choice but to fire you)

Secondly, what about employers who simply do not address the subject in any way whatsoever? If an employer has no verbal or written policy regarding knives, OC spray, guns, etc. on the job (or even a safe workplace policy), then can their silence be construed as consent, particularly if you have been extended by the State the specific legal privelege of carrying weapons concealed in public? If the employer does have a no-weapons policy and you knowingly violate it, does this make you in violation of some law (trespass, for example), or do you only become subject to the proscribed action (disciplinary action/termination from job)?

I tried running a search for this stuff in Google, and all I was able to find were web pages advising Michigan employers to adopt written no-weapons policies (in light of a new CCW law which took effect last year). This seems to imply that the lawyers there think it needs to be specifically prohibited or employees CAN carry SD stuff on the job, if legally able to do so.

I'm a little confused with my own situation. My employer has absolutely no relevant written or verbal policies on the subject. He has seen my tac-folders (a legal, but Dangerous Weapon, technically) many times in the past (to open boxes, etc.). He also knows I've trained in self-defense, to include the use of knives. He clearly doesn't mind that. Of course, I've never discussed concealed handguns...I imagine he'd have to say no, if at least for insurance reasons.
I sure wouldn't want to get fired, but...these things are kind of like insurance policies against situations that will cost your life. Jobs pale in comparison to that...but then again, it seems the liklihood of getting in job trouble is much greater than having to fight for my life on the job.

Any input greatly appreciated.

 

[Lone Hunter]

Well my employer has written rules against weapons,and in about a half an hour I'll leave for work with a 5 inch Voyager and an Emerson CQC7 in my pockets. Yes my co-workers and bosses know this,but see these are not weapons their rescue tools.

My point is our rules say nothing against knives,just weapons and mentions clubs,and guns by name,and I'm sure the Mayor would call my knives weapons and I really don't care,hell they give me an axe and my Deputy chief carries an auto.

If what you carry is legal then you are only breaking a work rule at best.(which you don't even have)My friend is an arson investigator,peace officer,makes felony arrests,UNARMED.Why? FD rules say no guns.He carries one anyway.He has a carry permit,legal to carry the gun,just breaks a work rule.

 

[Don Rearic]

There is a reason they are called, "Concealed Weapons."

That means they're concealed. You don't tell anyone. You don't let them show.

If a disgruntled [is there a "gruntled" Employee somewhere?] Employee enters to kill people and you were lucky enough to shut it down, any Employer that would fire you is not worth having as an Employer.

I'm getting rather mercenary in my approach to middle age, in that, I might just see if I could escape and do nothing and not do something unless I was confronted.

That's what screwy things like this cause. Natural selection.

After that, the debate dead ends with three choices:

a. You're fired.
b. You might go to jail if there is some screwy provision in a "Shall Issue" State about carrying when your Employer does not want you to.
c. You're dead.

Place your bets carefully.

 

[HAMMERHEAD2]

Every man has to decide to abide by the rules or become potential victim. My work has me moving up and down the Eastern Seabord, some of the most dangerous places I work are in areas with the most strict weapons laws. Carry Discreet, keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open.

Hey what's up with the minute someone finds out you are from Texas they assume you are armed to the teeth?

 

[one2gofst]

Cause they usually are,lol.

 

[Robert H]

This is a topic often discussed on the gun boards. Since I work at home I am always surrounded by knives, although I wear a gun and usually have a shotgun or rifle nearby.

Your safety is your responsibilty anywhere. The government can't and won't protect you. An employer will rarely acknowledge any measure of realistic security. My advice is any of a wide array of pocket pistols, or if you can get away with a backpack, rig a way to carry a full size weapon.

At the minimum a knife should be carried, if not a gun. The key is camoflauge, both in thought and actions, so no one suspects. Don't bring "tactical knives" or "guns and ammo" magazines to read in the lunch room. If you are identifed as a non sheep, you will be attacked by the flock.

 

[Sierra912]

Self Defense is wide ranging but there is a tendency to get hung up on the hardware aspect of this concern.

So be smart, not emotional.

If you commonly carry a knife continue to carry it. If no one has said / noticed it outside of the ordinary, great. It doesn't matter if it's a tac-folder, a fixed blade, or whatever. If accepted as part of the normal day of being around you...wonderful.

If you are legally able to carry concealed, and you have work considerations (as most of us with jobs that pay bills do), then carry but carry smart. For example, if your employer might frown on seeing your handgun in his business then when you arrive simply secure it in your vehicle. If the employer has a policy that offers Thou Shalt Not Possess or Bring Firearms Onto the Property then don't. If he or she doesn't have such a policy, be smart and leave the weapon secured and fall back on environmental awareness, empty hand, and perhaps other effective SD tools or weapons (OC, stout little knife, Kubotan, and so on).

If you are asked to use YOUR car to do business for the employer, and that's where you keep your legally owned and carried firearm when at work, then go about your business. Simply do so by being smart. If you're contacting folks I suggest the manner of doing so I offered earlier. Losses are ultimately the employer's challenge, not yours.

Since we're sharing here...

It's all very well to offer that breaking the laws that granted you the privilege of owning and carrying concealed a firearm is somehow "okay" or acceptable thinking and behavior. It's not. If that is how some folks think and behave then I would presume the next time you fly they fly they'll do everything they can to carry onboard, yes?

Hmmmm, didn't think so.

Well, if that's your plan and you do please write the Forum from the law library at the jail or prison you're sent to and further elaborate on how much better it is to be arrested, charged, hammered, then jailed because of your personal philosophy of "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" didn't play out quite so well. Oh, let us know what you plan to do for a living after you get out, as well. Felony convictions allow for exciting new career opportunities, not to mention friends.

And be happy you practiced your H2H empty hand skills. You'll need these in prison.

Self-defense is about being smart. So be smart.

Don't chance destroying your carefully conducted life for the sake of some scance belief that somehow packing a weapon where you're not legally permitted to do so will make all the difference in the world. Instead, broaden and deepen your SD skills and options and become smarter and more capable REGARDLESS of where you might find yourself, or under what conditions.

Bear in mind I've legally carried a firearm since the early 70s. Training and smart thinking have allowed me to wander far and near, among the sheep and the jackels, without falling back on simplistic, gun magazine thought processes as to my self protection or the protection of others.

Be smart, be safe, and you'll be fine.

I once attended a handgun training seminar hosted by a highly regarded personal defense / firearms instructor. During the course of the seminar he offered that he carries his handgun wherever he goes regardless of what the laws may offer in whatever state he's in. He said he's never had a problem. He then offered he never advertises the fact, and is careful about where he goes and what he does when he's knowingly in violation of the law.

My internal response was this:

1. It is irresponsible for a professional instructor in this area to openly advocate his or her students breaking the law when it comes to firearms. How would this same instructor respond if called as a defense witness and asked, under oath, if this is what he advocated and does in his professional capacity? If he tells the truth he's pretty much out of business right then and there. And if he doesn't tell the truth...

2. The people and places this fellow goes are most often quite safe. He's with law abiding folks, after all. And this includes hanging out and training cops. If he's carrying illegally and is "forgiven" due to his stature or reputation as an instructor, then shame on those encouraging his gross misbehavior. More so, he's getting away with an act that most others could not and will not get away with. The deck's stacked in his favor wherever he goes and he appears to make the most of it. The vast majority of "regular" folk aren't so blessed.

3. He's not very imaginative if he can't figure out how to legally have a firearm nearby in those states where he can't carry CONCEALED legally for the one or two days he's in town. He apparently is to lazy or arrogant in his position to ask what the rules are, and then explore how it might be that he can at least have a firearm "close by" either by law, special permit or letter during his time there. In many cases this can be provided. If not, he should be the good example and play by the rules.

If you can't or won't handle the "jones" of not having a gun in hand everywhere you go...then don't there.

Be smart.

Quality SD means making quality choices and decisions in your best interest. Look at the big picture of your life. Avoid catch-all bumper sticker thought processes and advice from those who advise badly. One thing is for certain, they won't be there if you screw up and are taken to task for it.

Trust this aids in your decision making process.

 

[Diligence]

I've been lurking in your new forum for a while and I have to tell you that I've enjoyed reading your posts Greg....in particular, this last one - well said.

"Quality SD means making quality choices and decisions in your best interest. Look at the big picture of your life."

Very relevant advice - it took me many mistakes before I began to make "quality choices", mistakes that I either regret, or very nearly caused me serious (read: fatal) injury.

D

 

[one2gofst]

Greg, I am of the same opinion. You might have seen the discussion on a different thread. Thanks for putting it more eloquently than I could.

 

[SM24]

Sierra...Thanks for the advice/wisdon/reality check...

 

[Sierra912]

This forum is about sharing experiences, widsom, information, and giving guidance on a variety of subjects.

I learn from you guyz as much if not more than whatever it is you might glean from me

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Sierra912
Self Defense is wide ranging but there is a tendency to get hung up on the hardware aspect of this concern.

That's very true, but there are also realities that have to be taken into consideration.

So be smart, not emotional.

I shall attempt to do just that.

If the employer has a policy that offers Thou Shalt Not Possess or Bring Firearms Onto the Property then don't.

It's funny. I was having a conversation with a friend in Texas some time ago and they were talking about not being able to carry at work and the signs that were posted. The funny part was, they had a Security Guard as well. This company has many "disgruntled" clients, shall we say... Anyway, the Security Guard is unarmed.

1. No one who would enter that building to do people harm would ever obey those stupid signs.

Much like the white trash piece of pond scum that went hunting for some Jewish folks down in California some time ago, he went to many different places to shoot some people that he hated. Well, he had to keep trying because many of the places had armed guards as per my understanding. When he found a place that was not guarded in that manner, he attacked.

2. The Security Guard in a situation like this is as useless as a human being can be. Please, by all means, ask yourself this...

Put yourself in the shoes of the "disgruntled" customer or employee, et al. If you go into a building to kill specific people or simply as many as you can, what are you going to do when the Guard picks the phone up?

Ding ding ding, that's right, Sports Fans, you're going to put a bullet in his head.

Unarmed Security Guards are symbolism over substance. They offer just about zero to potential targets.

If he or she doesn't have such a policy, be smart and leave the weapon secured and fall back on environmental awareness, empty hand, and perhaps other effective SD tools or weapons (OC, stout little knife, Kubotan, and so on).

I see no reason whatsoever why anyone would do this. The weapon can be secured on your person, you are breaking no law, especially if they have not posted it. Sometimes when they do post it, you're still not breaking the law but your employment could be jeopardized. Choose carefully as per the threat level.

State laws vary. Not all States, again, as per my understanding, demand that CCW/CHL Holders obey the signs. It has been hotly debated in Texas, for example.

It's all very well to offer that breaking the laws that granted you the privilege of owning and carrying concealed a firearm is somehow "okay" or acceptable thinking and behavior. It's not.

That's funny, I thought it was a right to own and carry but a right that came with personal responsibility.

Personally, I don't consider it a privilege anymore than I consider breathing air in public a privilege. It comes with an awesome responsibility and anyone that does not want to do so safely and responsibly should have their rights curtailed in this one area. But it is a right...

If that is how some folks think and behave then I would presume the next time you fly they fly they'll do everything they can to carry onboard, yes?

Hmmmm, didn't think so.

Hmm...unless you are an Airline Attendant, Pilot, Co-Pilot or serve on an airliner in some capacity, this is a red herring and does not matter anyway.

Apples and Porsches.

Well, if that's your plan and you do please write the Forum from the law library at the jail or prison you're sent to and further elaborate on how much better it is to be arrested, charged, hammered, then jailed because of your personal philosophy of "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" didn't play out quite so well.

We're getting a tad bit far afield. Are we still speaking about a commercial airliner or any place of employment?

Please clarify.

Oh, let us know what you plan to do for a living after you get out, as well. Felony convictions allow for exciting new career opportunities, not to mention friends.

If "they" are going to criminalize the common right, the basic civil and human right of Self-defense, and they are going to incarcerate you for that...

Well, if you get stigmatized after that and you cannot find work, just remember what they taught you.

In other words, if they want to make you a felon for simply desiring more safety, be the best felon you can be.

And be happy you practiced your H2H empty hand skills. You'll need these in prison.

Not much in there, most people get knifed, so make sure those skills are up to snuff.

Self-defense is about being smart. So be smart.

That is correct. When confronted with violent predators, people often have to make drastic decisions.

Don't chance destroying your carefully conducted life for the sake of some scance belief that somehow packing a weapon where you're not legally permitted to do so will make all the difference in the world.

NOT packing a weapon when you are allowed or not allowed to do so can kill you. Don't see the point. Never will.

Instead, broaden and deepen your SD skills and options and become smarter and more capable REGARDLESS of where you might find yourself, or under what conditions.

Cut off the first word, "instead" and I agree.

Bear in mind I've legally carried a firearm since the early 70s. Training and smart thinking have allowed me to wander far and near, among the sheep and the jackels, without falling back on simplistic, gun magazine thought processes as to my self protection or the protection of others.

Be smart, be safe, and you'll be fine.

Many people at Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas were smart and they were not safe, nor were they "fine" at the end of the day.

Many people on the Long Island Railroad were smart and they played it safe. Colin Ferguson aced them because no one could stop him from killing people. He was tackled during a magazine change. [There is a lesson for ya...]

I once attended a handgun training seminar hosted by a highly regarded personal defense / firearms instructor. During the course of the seminar he offered that he carries his handgun wherever he goes regardless of what the laws may offer in whatever state he's in. He said he's never had a problem. He then offered he never advertises the fact, and is careful about where he goes and what he does when he's knowingly in violation of the law.

He's exercising a civil right. Just because so many people bang the word "privilege" on the desk over and over does not make it so. It is a right. I see nothing wrong with it. Although many do.

My internal response was this:

1. It is irresponsible for a professional instructor in this area to openly advocate his or her students breaking the law when it comes to firearms. How would this same instructor respond if called as a defense witness and asked, under oath, if this is what he advocated and does in his professional capacity? If he tells the truth he's pretty much out of business right then and there. And if he doesn't tell the truth...

Maybe he is just giving the people another reality, Greg. You have one and he has one. If your reality fails the student, they die. If his does, they go to jail.

I'm sorry, for all of the "bumper sticker" claims about "Judged by 12 or carried by 6," that classic piece of Americana has survived a long, long time simply because it is true.

2. The people and places this fellow goes are most often quite safe. He's with law abiding folks, after all. And this includes hanging out and training cops. If he's carrying illegally and is "forgiven" due to his stature or reputation as an instructor, then shame on those encouraging his gross misbehavior. More so, he's getting away with an act that most others could not and will not get away with. The deck's stacked in his favor wherever he goes and he appears to make the most of it. The vast majority of "regular" folk aren't so blessed.

Yeah, I'm sort of a fencesitter on this one. If he wants to be a part of the hypocritical "Good Old Boy Network," I hope he gets caught.

If he really is exercising a right with no bravado, I hope he does not.

3. He's not very imaginative if he can't figure out how to legally have a firearm nearby in those states where he can't carry CONCEALED legally for the one or two days he's in town. He apparently is to lazy or arrogant in his position to ask what the rules are, and then explore how it might be that he can at least have a firearm "close by" either by law, special permit or letter during his time there. In many cases this can be provided. If not, he should be the good example and play by the rules.

The rules often dictated leave the honest disarmed while the recidivist rate climbs because we won't hold people accountable for their actions.

Some rules.

If you can't or won't handle the "jones" of not having a gun in hand everywhere you go...then don't there.

"Jones" is an addiction. I don't see Self-defense as an "addiction." Just a necessity.

There was a nice piece written by a Lady in the past day or so that addresses this nicely.

Stay in your cage, if you do not, don't blame us when you get attacked because we will ask you why you were out of your cage.

http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=617

 

[HAMMERHEAD2]

Every man has to make this decision based on his experiences and good judgement.

I have worked in cities such as Dallas, Chicago, Philly, DC, Miami and New York. My work requires that I be in the less than desirable areas of these places.

Take a good look at the weapons regulations for the mentioned locations. Can you with a good concience abide fully with the law and be safe to a reasonable extent, I do not think so. If the weapon is never needed it will never be seen, you will not know.

First day of work in Barr Yard in Chicago 1999 we found a abandoned car with its driver dead in the trunk. I do not intend to go like that without one hell of a fight.

 

[Leo Daher]

Originally posted by Sierra912
It's all very well to offer that breaking the laws that granted you the privilege of owning and carrying concealed a firearm is somehow "okay" or acceptable thinking and behavior. It's not.

Sorry, Greg, but at this point I'm forced to disagree. Self-protection is a natural human right and it is certainly not "granted" by any man-made laws.
I also think it's good to remember that we will always be taking some chances, regardless of what we choose to do. That's what living is all about, IMHO - making decisions and taking chances.

Respectfully,

Leo

 

[SM24]

It seems a few of the issues have become tangled. My main concern is "what happens if you can legally carry concealed, do so at work, breaking no written policy, and get caught (I'm never going to show it unless the need is deadly, but what if boss bumps into you accidentally, feels a big hard lump under your shirt, and is less than turned on)?"
This question seems to have gotten confused with one about deliberately carrying concealed in legally prohibited areas (which I never have, and will not.)
The discussion continues......

 

[memnoch]

How about a small .380 loades with hot ammo in the pocket? Or if you REALLY need consealment a .32.

Yeah, its not as good as a .357 S&W 640 or a Glock .45. But its consealable, and its a firearm.

maybe mouseguns have a place in the spectrum.

 

[one2gofst]

If there is no written policy I'd say not much he can do to you for it. The rules can be changed in the future and then you have to decide what to do. If they tried to do anything to you and you did not break any rules there are plenty of lawyers that would love to take that case.

 

[Bravesfan1995]

I can't remember where it happened, but I do remember reading about it a few years back. Pizza delivery person, while doing their job, becomes the victim of an armed robbery. Presents or uses a gun and defends themselves (can't remember if they fired or not). They survived unscathe, but lost their job because their is a strict no weapons policy at their place of employ. I thought it really sucked when I read about it.

 

[dkochan]

If no one knows that you are carrying a knife, gun or other self-defense item, what does it matter? If what you are carrying is concealed, no one should know that you are carrying weapon. My suggestion is be discreet when carrying your gun, knife or self-defense tool.

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Bravesfan1995
I can't remember where it happened, but I do remember reading about it a few years back. Pizza delivery person, while doing their job, becomes the victim of an armed robbery. Presents or uses a gun and defends themselves (can't remember if they fired or not). They survived unscathe, but lost their job because their is a strict no weapons policy at their place of employ.

Ken,

That would be Domino's Pizza in Northern Virginia. Right after Virginia passed "Shall Issue" concealed carry. Obviously because the person was a Delivery Driver, it was their own car. I think he sued them but do not know the outcome.

Isn't it amazing though?

Had he not done that, he might be dead right now. Everything in life he has done since that day with family and friends, the people he loves, would have never happened.