I think that demand has gone down due to the economy and due to the fact that there are more and more offerings from other production companies that are competing with a Sebenza. Also, the quality of factory offerings has improved, closing the gap with the Sebenza, example: the Mad Maxx and Cuda from Camillus. Sebenza is still king though, in my opinion and there isn't another factory folder that comes close to its precison.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Sebbie market -- what happened to resale?
- Thread starter 92degrees
- Start date
- Joined
- May 12, 2001
- Messages
- 2,948
I had a chance to speak with an owner of a popular internet knife store that sells a slew of customs and some finer production knives. My EDC is a small seb, just back from the factory with a good edge. A few scuffs from pocket carry, but in good shape
He said that he would pay $190 for it because his customers would buy such a knife for About $220.
What this meant to me is that even in a soft market for plain sebenzas, the floor prices are not all that bad. So, to us sebenzites, a good strategy might be to buy used and get them refurbished.
Also the S30V blades being introduced do not help. People might have been a bit wary of the virtues of Talonite, but nobody I have read thinks that S30V is anything but great.
There might be other framelocks out there (substitutes), but none as good as the sebenza (yet).
Last thought - how many of us would not have paid $.30 per day to use the sebenza for a year, to sell it for $200 (original purchase price $305)?
He said that he would pay $190 for it because his customers would buy such a knife for About $220.
What this meant to me is that even in a soft market for plain sebenzas, the floor prices are not all that bad. So, to us sebenzites, a good strategy might be to buy used and get them refurbished.
Also the S30V blades being introduced do not help. People might have been a bit wary of the virtues of Talonite, but nobody I have read thinks that S30V is anything but great.
There might be other framelocks out there (substitutes), but none as good as the sebenza (yet).
Last thought - how many of us would not have paid $.30 per day to use the sebenza for a year, to sell it for $200 (original purchase price $305)?
Ehhhh...
Where are all these lower-priced Sebbies?
I don't see them in the FS forums here, and certainly not on eBay.
I've been looking for a Small (erm, I hope this is appropriate) for about a month now, but the cheapest I've seen used for the BG-42's are in the $260-280 region.
In my non-'Benza-owning opinion (
), that's a way overpriced secondary market. We're talking about the resale retention of "true" customs.
For another $25, I could buy new, with the S30V. That's the price of a dinner out.
Around $200-230, for EX++, that's more value-oriented.
-Jon
Where are all these lower-priced Sebbies?
I don't see them in the FS forums here, and certainly not on eBay.
I've been looking for a Small (erm, I hope this is appropriate) for about a month now, but the cheapest I've seen used for the BG-42's are in the $260-280 region.
In my non-'Benza-owning opinion (
), that's a way overpriced secondary market. We're talking about the resale retention of "true" customs. For another $25, I could buy new, with the S30V. That's the price of a dinner out.
Around $200-230, for EX++, that's more value-oriented.
-Jon
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2000
- Messages
- 1,363
Once a sebbie was hard to get even if you wanted one and the price was unheard of for a user knife. If you bought one you used it. Pride was in carrying one.
Now you can find a sebbie anywhere and the price may seem high but not that unusual. There is far more competition in the user market and its more common for higher end knives to be carried and used. The designs haven't change much and sebbies are now bought and kept NIB in collections. If you haven't got one you can go to a shop and buy one. For a few bucks more you can buy a prettier one. I believe then that the market for plain sebbies is saturated. The market won't get better until CR stops making them.
While old designs remain in production I think the second hand market, even for NIB, is far too high. How much should one spend for a second hand tool that is still on the shop shelves?
Chris Reeve is unlikely to stop making them as they still sell. The fixed line remains in production because they are used, priced correctly, and hold their own. There is not a big used second hand market as people tend to keep them. NIB second hand price reflects a saving over retail and even that price is not too bad. A sebbie is even more money and its users that take up the slack of the second hand market pieces. They want an even bigger saving before they will buy. Collectors want mint, near unopened boxes which you can get direct.
I don't have a sebbie, but I will, a classic for using, but not until the price is well low. I've survived without one long enough, sa waiting a little longer won't matter.
I could be completely wrong though.
Now you can find a sebbie anywhere and the price may seem high but not that unusual. There is far more competition in the user market and its more common for higher end knives to be carried and used. The designs haven't change much and sebbies are now bought and kept NIB in collections. If you haven't got one you can go to a shop and buy one. For a few bucks more you can buy a prettier one. I believe then that the market for plain sebbies is saturated. The market won't get better until CR stops making them.
While old designs remain in production I think the second hand market, even for NIB, is far too high. How much should one spend for a second hand tool that is still on the shop shelves?
Chris Reeve is unlikely to stop making them as they still sell. The fixed line remains in production because they are used, priced correctly, and hold their own. There is not a big used second hand market as people tend to keep them. NIB second hand price reflects a saving over retail and even that price is not too bad. A sebbie is even more money and its users that take up the slack of the second hand market pieces. They want an even bigger saving before they will buy. Collectors want mint, near unopened boxes which you can get direct.
I don't have a sebbie, but I will, a classic for using, but not until the price is well low. I've survived without one long enough, sa waiting a little longer won't matter.
I could be completely wrong though.
bob_glassman
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2000
- Messages
- 414
The least expensive "Like New" or close small sebbie that I have seen went for like 230.00. That is a drop dead bargain. I really can't see them going any lower then that. If history repeats itself, the new price will go up. That of course will drive the secondary market up. If you want one, now is the time to buy one.
I personally have sold all my plains. I now only have:
1) small unique
2) small Redwood Burl
3) Large Desert Irownwood
They are all great.
I see the market being soft mostly in the plains..
I personally have sold all my plains. I now only have:
1) small unique
2) small Redwood Burl
3) Large Desert Irownwood
They are all great.
I see the market being soft mostly in the plains..
Elvislives
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 1999
- Messages
- 3,028
A couple of opinions: (ok 5 for the pickers of nits...)
1. This place (BF.C) is a microcosm, with some different economics than the larger system. Better deals are generally to be had through this type of community than the 'real' world.
2. Value is subjective. Just because one person, one dealer, heck one economist says they will only give "X" for something doesn't establish the value for the rest of the consumers/dealers/economists.
3. I've always noticed CRK's situation to be one of power on the supplyside of things. I have yet to hear of a CRK surplus, where everyone in the world could by any of their products straight off the shelf. Heck, you have to sign up a year early to get a woody. (that didn't quite come out right...)
4. The low prices are on the secondary market. That market cannot be trusted to establish value due to the influence of fickle consumers. Just because one guy gets buyer's remorse, lists his knife for sale, gets nervous when he can't sell it in 45 minutes, then marks it down by $75 doesn't establish that as the 'going rate' for a Sebenza.
5. CRK fits a niche in the market. It is at the high end of production knives. It has custom quality, but is priced far enough below customs to make it viable. It is the pinnacle of function while being very simplistic in form. It is very user friendly, can be completely field stripped, and works as intended every time, all the time.
There, I feel much better now...
1. This place (BF.C) is a microcosm, with some different economics than the larger system. Better deals are generally to be had through this type of community than the 'real' world.
2. Value is subjective. Just because one person, one dealer, heck one economist says they will only give "X" for something doesn't establish the value for the rest of the consumers/dealers/economists.
3. I've always noticed CRK's situation to be one of power on the supplyside of things. I have yet to hear of a CRK surplus, where everyone in the world could by any of their products straight off the shelf. Heck, you have to sign up a year early to get a woody. (that didn't quite come out right...)
4. The low prices are on the secondary market. That market cannot be trusted to establish value due to the influence of fickle consumers. Just because one guy gets buyer's remorse, lists his knife for sale, gets nervous when he can't sell it in 45 minutes, then marks it down by $75 doesn't establish that as the 'going rate' for a Sebenza.
5. CRK fits a niche in the market. It is at the high end of production knives. It has custom quality, but is priced far enough below customs to make it viable. It is the pinnacle of function while being very simplistic in form. It is very user friendly, can be completely field stripped, and works as intended every time, all the time.
There, I feel much better now...
- Joined
- Jan 19, 1999
- Messages
- 842
The demand is still there. Maybe not as intense as it was a year or so ago but I still get calls for CRK products. I even sold a couple of CRK this weekend. However, I don't sell as much as I used to because I sell at retail.
Many buyers are shopping prices more than before on most models because the perception is that if dealer 1 has it at retail, maybe dealer 2 is willing to go below that to make a sale. Whether that's tha case or not, most folks feel that it's worth the try. This usually applies to those who want only new knives.
The fact is, there are some "dealers" who are willing to dump the price in order to make a quick sale. Bills are coming due, taxes need to be paid, maybe some new inventory items caught their eye or they may have simply misjudged the overall turnover period of the line and want to get out from under it.
Another factor is the level of professional knowledge in the field. The less experienced dealers think they have to compete with the secondary market in order to make it, not realizing that the two markets are seperate entities. The problem is, that, in doing so, they lower the value of the entire line.
People willing to take used or pre-owned procucts don't even bother checking with dealers in most cases. Experienced secondary market shoppers are very adept at driving prices down when dealing with amatures so they tend to avoid the professional dealer or purveyor.
This may all sound like great news for the buyers and those who have been waiting to get one of these products. The idea is that the "free market" will drive the cost down to "affordable" levels so that "everyone can have one".
That argument is weak in several places. For one, these aren't common products. Not everyone would have one. For another, if the availability and price become such that they are considered "common" then those who have paid significant money for the ones they already own feel cheated or slighted.
There is a certain pride (or maybe satisfaction is the better word) of ownership in relating how many and what type of each model a person owns. It's readily apparent and even prevalent on forums such as this one.
Face it. If all one wants is a knife to cut things with, then there are thousands of choices. Get a Camillus or Delta Z or even a (dare I say it here?) CRKT. There are all sorts of cheap, common tools that will serve just fine and, if lost, stolen or broken won't cause a significant amount of tears or gnashing of teeth. (No one will say "wow" when you pull it out either.)
It's something else to bring out a Sebenza or a TNT or (insert your favorite hotshot here). That's what that aspect of the market is all about. Snobbery? Yeah, but then, we're all snobs about one thing or another.
Another is these things aren't cheap to make. Material costs, labor and overhead don't go down....ever. Machinery is expensive to purchase, maintain and operate. Skilled craftsman demand, and get, high pay. The only way these costs get covered is through the sales of the products they make. Regardless of the insistance of some to continuously harp on the fact that CRK is a "production" knife the fact remains that they are not mass-produced or "production-line" knives. Each one is hand built and precision fitted the same as any "handmade custom" knife out there.
In fact, I submit that ALL knives produced by any of the makers for the "custom" market are "Production Knives". Tom Mayo, Allen Elishewitz, Pat Crawford, Bob Terzuola....Etc. all are "producing knives". Whether they are "made to order" or made for stock. The principle is the same. If you want a TNT. Order one from Tom Mayo or one of his dealers. You'll get a production knife. You want a Crawford Carnivore? Order it from Pat or one of his Purveyors...production knife. Etc., Etc., Etc. They'll be the same as any other produced by those makers, possibly with a few unique or personal touches but, essentially the same as any other knife of that model. Where's the difference between that and the CRK line? At the elemental level, there is no difference. This isn't to dimish or belittle these other fine makers but neither should the CRK line be any less respected.
If you want a custom, non-production piece, tell the maker exactly what you want, how you want it and make sure they never make the same one again. THEN you'll have a one-of-a-kind custom.
(MY two cents on the never ending custom vs production debate. I digress...)
The bottom line is that, in my opinion, CRK makes the finest folders in the world, period. That's where the cost comes from and if the "free market" drives the sales value too low it won't be economical or cost effective to make them anymore. If that happens, Chris will retire or convert his operation to making widgets or capitulated fratistats or something of the sort and ALL CRK will become "collectors items". The value ought to really shoot up then.
As a footnote, concerning the market: I've been selling CRK for about 5 years now. What I am seeing isn't a depression in the maket but rather a settling back to old levels. What we actually saw in the last couple of years was a "bubble" in the sales of the line. We had a bit of a rush on them with a lot of folks jumping on the CRK wagon. The wannabes and groupies seem to be falling off now and things appear to be trimming out to the basic constituancy.
Many buyers are shopping prices more than before on most models because the perception is that if dealer 1 has it at retail, maybe dealer 2 is willing to go below that to make a sale. Whether that's tha case or not, most folks feel that it's worth the try. This usually applies to those who want only new knives.
The fact is, there are some "dealers" who are willing to dump the price in order to make a quick sale. Bills are coming due, taxes need to be paid, maybe some new inventory items caught their eye or they may have simply misjudged the overall turnover period of the line and want to get out from under it.
Another factor is the level of professional knowledge in the field. The less experienced dealers think they have to compete with the secondary market in order to make it, not realizing that the two markets are seperate entities. The problem is, that, in doing so, they lower the value of the entire line.
People willing to take used or pre-owned procucts don't even bother checking with dealers in most cases. Experienced secondary market shoppers are very adept at driving prices down when dealing with amatures so they tend to avoid the professional dealer or purveyor.
This may all sound like great news for the buyers and those who have been waiting to get one of these products. The idea is that the "free market" will drive the cost down to "affordable" levels so that "everyone can have one".
That argument is weak in several places. For one, these aren't common products. Not everyone would have one. For another, if the availability and price become such that they are considered "common" then those who have paid significant money for the ones they already own feel cheated or slighted.
There is a certain pride (or maybe satisfaction is the better word) of ownership in relating how many and what type of each model a person owns. It's readily apparent and even prevalent on forums such as this one.
Face it. If all one wants is a knife to cut things with, then there are thousands of choices. Get a Camillus or Delta Z or even a (dare I say it here?) CRKT. There are all sorts of cheap, common tools that will serve just fine and, if lost, stolen or broken won't cause a significant amount of tears or gnashing of teeth. (No one will say "wow" when you pull it out either.)
It's something else to bring out a Sebenza or a TNT or (insert your favorite hotshot here). That's what that aspect of the market is all about. Snobbery? Yeah, but then, we're all snobs about one thing or another.
Another is these things aren't cheap to make. Material costs, labor and overhead don't go down....ever. Machinery is expensive to purchase, maintain and operate. Skilled craftsman demand, and get, high pay. The only way these costs get covered is through the sales of the products they make. Regardless of the insistance of some to continuously harp on the fact that CRK is a "production" knife the fact remains that they are not mass-produced or "production-line" knives. Each one is hand built and precision fitted the same as any "handmade custom" knife out there.
In fact, I submit that ALL knives produced by any of the makers for the "custom" market are "Production Knives". Tom Mayo, Allen Elishewitz, Pat Crawford, Bob Terzuola....Etc. all are "producing knives". Whether they are "made to order" or made for stock. The principle is the same. If you want a TNT. Order one from Tom Mayo or one of his dealers. You'll get a production knife. You want a Crawford Carnivore? Order it from Pat or one of his Purveyors...production knife. Etc., Etc., Etc. They'll be the same as any other produced by those makers, possibly with a few unique or personal touches but, essentially the same as any other knife of that model. Where's the difference between that and the CRK line? At the elemental level, there is no difference. This isn't to dimish or belittle these other fine makers but neither should the CRK line be any less respected.
If you want a custom, non-production piece, tell the maker exactly what you want, how you want it and make sure they never make the same one again. THEN you'll have a one-of-a-kind custom.
(MY two cents on the never ending custom vs production debate. I digress...)
The bottom line is that, in my opinion, CRK makes the finest folders in the world, period. That's where the cost comes from and if the "free market" drives the sales value too low it won't be economical or cost effective to make them anymore. If that happens, Chris will retire or convert his operation to making widgets or capitulated fratistats or something of the sort and ALL CRK will become "collectors items". The value ought to really shoot up then.
As a footnote, concerning the market: I've been selling CRK for about 5 years now. What I am seeing isn't a depression in the maket but rather a settling back to old levels. What we actually saw in the last couple of years was a "bubble" in the sales of the line. We had a bit of a rush on them with a lot of folks jumping on the CRK wagon. The wannabes and groupies seem to be falling off now and things appear to be trimming out to the basic constituancy.
bob_glassman
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2000
- Messages
- 414
Dennis,
Thank you for stating your position on this issue. The majority of the points that you have made (IMHO) are quite valid. Where I beg to differ is related to the issue that custom knife makers (and I read this to mean "in general") produce production knives. This debate has been going on a long, long time. The fact of the matter is, there are degrees of custom vs. production knives. In my experience, there are many makers that produce "1 of a kind" pieces that would not fall into the catagory that you just mentioned. As far as CRK being the best folder available, that is also a subjective issue that is open to interpretation or for that matter disagreement. As was raised in another forum, there is no such thing as a "Best Folder Made", just like there is no such thing as "The Best Knife Maker". It is impossible to quantify the "Best".. You can make the statement, but it really can not be quantified by emperical comparison.
The fact does remain that these folders are great !!! Therefore, the demand for them should continue to be there long term.
But, as it relates to this forum, it would seem that the Sebenza is a bit soft again (IMHO).
Thanks again.
Thank you for stating your position on this issue. The majority of the points that you have made (IMHO) are quite valid. Where I beg to differ is related to the issue that custom knife makers (and I read this to mean "in general") produce production knives. This debate has been going on a long, long time. The fact of the matter is, there are degrees of custom vs. production knives. In my experience, there are many makers that produce "1 of a kind" pieces that would not fall into the catagory that you just mentioned. As far as CRK being the best folder available, that is also a subjective issue that is open to interpretation or for that matter disagreement. As was raised in another forum, there is no such thing as a "Best Folder Made", just like there is no such thing as "The Best Knife Maker". It is impossible to quantify the "Best".. You can make the statement, but it really can not be quantified by emperical comparison.
The fact does remain that these folders are great !!! Therefore, the demand for them should continue to be there long term.
But, as it relates to this forum, it would seem that the Sebenza is a bit soft again (IMHO).
Thanks again.
- Joined
- Jan 19, 1999
- Messages
- 842
Bob, your opinion vs mine. Like rectums, important only to the owners, (usually).
The debate on production v custom rages endless and unresolvable. What you call custom and what I call custom will always vary. Custom production? Production custom? What difference does it make? It's what flips your burger that counts. When we spend our money we choose that which is important enough to justify or warrant the price.
Same with "best". I stand by my opinion and share it freely. It can be taken as presented or ignored.
I know my qualifications and experiance level and have confidence therein. It's others who have to evaluate and decide if they lend veracity to the statement. Some will and some won't. That's what subjectivity is all about and the whole debate is just that...subjective.
By my standards, they are the best. As for my standards...welll, reread the second sentance.
The debate on production v custom rages endless and unresolvable. What you call custom and what I call custom will always vary. Custom production? Production custom? What difference does it make? It's what flips your burger that counts. When we spend our money we choose that which is important enough to justify or warrant the price.
Same with "best". I stand by my opinion and share it freely. It can be taken as presented or ignored.
I know my qualifications and experiance level and have confidence therein. It's others who have to evaluate and decide if they lend veracity to the statement. Some will and some won't. That's what subjectivity is all about and the whole debate is just that...subjective.
By my standards, they are the best. As for my standards...welll, reread the second sentance.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Messages
- 1,217
If only this was in Whine & Cheese.....unfortunately it is not, so I will refrain from replying to Dennis's post directumly. IMHO the CRK market is falling faster than the Dow! People who are buying list from Dennis either don't know where to shop, are newbies, or just plain stupid! Althogh CRK makes a fine product, they haven't produced anything new since the Mnandi. Oh, they use S30V, at "no extra charge." Whoopie! Jump for joy!
Land Rover
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 8
You want to talk about a saturated market lets look at Randall!! What are they producing these day's, 65,000 I think I heard last? That might even be a month. But I have a #5 coming in June and a #14 coming in Sept from Becks and paying 300+ for each. They are about as production as you can get, but I love them. Thing about Reeve's Sebbie is take it out, use it, abuse it, put it to the test because it won't fail you and when your done send to Chris and Ann they will fix it for a small fee just like knew. Who else can do that??? This too, Chris and Ann are the Nice's, down to earth people you will ever meet. They will do anything for you the Customer.I have had the pleasure of getting to know them both, met Chris at the SHOT Show in Dallas a few years back, can't ask for a better man.So far as long as I can put my hand around a Sebenza I will, and to drop 350.00 for one, you bet.
Hiya everyone,
I know that this probably isn't anything that anyone wants to hear as far as re-sale value is concerned, but what about people who have never been able to afford a Sebenza being intoduced to a wonderful knife? I have lusted after a Sebenza for a long time (At least 3 years) and have never been able to afford the 250.00 plus that even a used Sebenza brings. Well last week was looking over a different Forums for sale boards and was lucky enough to be the first in line to get a Used Small Classic Sebenza for $165.00/Shipped and actually he gave me a better deal beacuse I bought another of the knives he had for sale so I really got it for $155.00/Shipped. I just received it today and it is in great shape. The blade looks brand new and was never resharpened and the handle does have some "Character" marks but nothing bad or deep. I am now looking for a large Classic and wouldn't have been able to afford one if not for this great deal. So I know that it sucks to sell a used one for so little but consider all of the joy you are bringing ne Sebenza owners and maybe it will help soften the blow.....
I know that this probably isn't anything that anyone wants to hear as far as re-sale value is concerned, but what about people who have never been able to afford a Sebenza being intoduced to a wonderful knife? I have lusted after a Sebenza for a long time (At least 3 years) and have never been able to afford the 250.00 plus that even a used Sebenza brings. Well last week was looking over a different Forums for sale boards and was lucky enough to be the first in line to get a Used Small Classic Sebenza for $165.00/Shipped and actually he gave me a better deal beacuse I bought another of the knives he had for sale so I really got it for $155.00/Shipped. I just received it today and it is in great shape. The blade looks brand new and was never resharpened and the handle does have some "Character" marks but nothing bad or deep. I am now looking for a large Classic and wouldn't have been able to afford one if not for this great deal. So I know that it sucks to sell a used one for so little but consider all of the joy you are bringing ne Sebenza owners and maybe it will help soften the blow.....
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
- Messages
- 924
SpydyBush, you did well. No, it doesn't make me feel any better.
My last Sebbie is actually gone -- traded. I got my money out, and as far as I can tell, so did the guy I traded with. A happy trade.
$155 is the lowest I've ever heard paid for a good Sebbie. 50% off retail for a used knife puts CRK in the company of most every other production shop. Something to chew on.
I completely disagree with Dennis Wright's take on production vs. custom, but this isn't the forum for it.
My last Sebbie is actually gone -- traded. I got my money out, and as far as I can tell, so did the guy I traded with. A happy trade.
$155 is the lowest I've ever heard paid for a good Sebbie. 50% off retail for a used knife puts CRK in the company of most every other production shop. Something to chew on.
I completely disagree with Dennis Wright's take on production vs. custom, but this isn't the forum for it.
Elvislives
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 1999
- Messages
- 3,028
Really? That's a bold statement.
Not everyone in this world buys based upon price alone. To some the ability to obtain personal service from a Dealer is more important than buying a knife at the lowest price they can find from someone who might, or might not be there tomorrow.
And SpydyBush you got that knife just before I saw it for sale. I've been looking for a small Sebenza and I'd have snatched that up in a heartbeat.
- Joined
- Jan 19, 1999
- Messages
- 842
It's funny how some people's social skills seem to wane when they've been in front of a keyboard for awhile. Then, again, it's pretty safe to take potshots when you know there's three thousand plus miles between you and your target.
Tell you what, Marcangel, if you're ever in the San Diego area, look me up. (It's easy. I'm in the yellow pages.) We can discuss it face to face. Be interesting to see if the conversation has the same tone when there's not so much distance between us.
Personally, I don't think people who buy from me are stupid. I like to think that they just prefer to work with a reputable dealer.
As for my original post, there was no whining there, just an attempt, based on my own knowledge and experience, to offer an objective answer to the question that started this thread.
I've been in this business for almost ten years, full time for eight of those years. I've developed a lot of knowledge of the knife market over those years and I don't mind sharing it. If it's not what you want to hear, then ignore it. That's your perogative. It is not your perogative, however, to imply that I am less than professional or honest and that people would be stupid to deal with me or do business with me when you know nothing about my business or about me.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't even bother to reply to such comments. I almost didn't but, since it was a direct slur on my personal and professional reputation, I felt that a response was necessary. I apologize, in advance, to anyone who really doesn't want see this stuff... I wouldn't either.
Marcangel, the offer remains open. If you're ever in San Diego................
Tell you what, Marcangel, if you're ever in the San Diego area, look me up. (It's easy. I'm in the yellow pages.) We can discuss it face to face. Be interesting to see if the conversation has the same tone when there's not so much distance between us.
Personally, I don't think people who buy from me are stupid. I like to think that they just prefer to work with a reputable dealer.
As for my original post, there was no whining there, just an attempt, based on my own knowledge and experience, to offer an objective answer to the question that started this thread.
I've been in this business for almost ten years, full time for eight of those years. I've developed a lot of knowledge of the knife market over those years and I don't mind sharing it. If it's not what you want to hear, then ignore it. That's your perogative. It is not your perogative, however, to imply that I am less than professional or honest and that people would be stupid to deal with me or do business with me when you know nothing about my business or about me.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't even bother to reply to such comments. I almost didn't but, since it was a direct slur on my personal and professional reputation, I felt that a response was necessary. I apologize, in advance, to anyone who really doesn't want see this stuff... I wouldn't either.
Marcangel, the offer remains open. If you're ever in San Diego................
WrayH
Accumulator
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2001
- Messages
- 480
marcangel, if this thread goes to Whine & Cheese it will be you that put it there.
Your first two posts in this thread expressed your opinions on this subject in clear, reasoned terms and and were a positive contribution. The opinion expressed in your third post regarding people who buy at retail from Dennis at his B&M was not well reasoned and was downright rude.
Dennis explained his position, reasoning and viewpoint when he presented his opinions on the subject. His opinions are pretty blunt, clearly stated and unambiguous as they have been every time that he has chosen to weigh-in on a subject on Blade Forums that affects his position as a B&M dealer in the cutlery market. I cannot remember a single instance when he has posted anything that was personally offensive or, as in this case, rude. They have been, however, very informative and interesting. I don't always agree with him, but as he has noted, his opinion is just a valid as mine.
Each of us is free to chose where and from whom they want to purchase a knife. While I have made most of my purchases on-line I also occasionally make a purchase at a local B&M shop even though I know that I could get a better price either from an internet dealer or the BF sale forums. I definately do know where to shop, am not a newbie and I am not stupid. Also, if I lived in Dennis's area I very likely would be at least an occasional customer.
Your characterization of those who would choose to deal with him as not knowing where to shop, newbies or stupid does not in any way invalidate his opinions, nor strengthen yours. I was really surprised as your previous posts (that I have read) on other subjects have always been temperate, reasonable and good natured.
I agree with some of the points that you made. My only Sebenza, a large Classic is a user and I do not feel the urge for any of the decorated or inlay models and fluctuation in the resale market is not of great concern to me.
This place is supposed to be fun and the tone should be light, and IMHO, not derisive.
Your first two posts in this thread expressed your opinions on this subject in clear, reasoned terms and and were a positive contribution. The opinion expressed in your third post regarding people who buy at retail from Dennis at his B&M was not well reasoned and was downright rude.
Dennis explained his position, reasoning and viewpoint when he presented his opinions on the subject. His opinions are pretty blunt, clearly stated and unambiguous as they have been every time that he has chosen to weigh-in on a subject on Blade Forums that affects his position as a B&M dealer in the cutlery market. I cannot remember a single instance when he has posted anything that was personally offensive or, as in this case, rude. They have been, however, very informative and interesting. I don't always agree with him, but as he has noted, his opinion is just a valid as mine.
Each of us is free to chose where and from whom they want to purchase a knife. While I have made most of my purchases on-line I also occasionally make a purchase at a local B&M shop even though I know that I could get a better price either from an internet dealer or the BF sale forums. I definately do know where to shop, am not a newbie and I am not stupid. Also, if I lived in Dennis's area I very likely would be at least an occasional customer.
Your characterization of those who would choose to deal with him as not knowing where to shop, newbies or stupid does not in any way invalidate his opinions, nor strengthen yours. I was really surprised as your previous posts (that I have read) on other subjects have always been temperate, reasonable and good natured.
I agree with some of the points that you made. My only Sebenza, a large Classic is a user and I do not feel the urge for any of the decorated or inlay models and fluctuation in the resale market is not of great concern to me.
This place is supposed to be fun and the tone should be light, and IMHO, not derisive.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Messages
- 1,217
Granted, too harsh and abrasive on my part. I apologize for tone, not content. However, the "rectum reference" made by Dennis, as well as his rather long-winded dissertation was an set-up for a smart alec remark, and I couldn't resist. As for buying from reputable dealers for a CRK product, it really DOESN'T MATTER! CRK customer service is one of the best in the industry, and once the knife is purchased, they support it. So what does a dealer do here except add ANOTHER unnecessary level of cost to the purchaser? As for Dennis's remark, regarding face to face interaction....sounds a little bit like a schoolboy calling me out. The intent of my comment was not to personally slander anyone, but rather to indicate that the knives can be had for less. There is a very reputable knife shop close to me, and I do patronize him, sometimes for list PLUS. I find this really annoying, but he carries knives you just can't get anywhere else, and I'd feel incredibly guilty just going in there to check things out in person, and not buy something. Do I buy most of my knives there? NO! I'd have half the collection I do now. One thing the internet DOES DO is take out personal inflection and references to "the industry" were stated as a personal reference and that was how the thread was moving. Shame on me for poor grammar. I had no intention of slandering Dennis or his customers.
P.S. Dennis I'll give you a shout on the phone. San Diego isn't in the near future for me, but I love Coronado, The Hotel Del especially.
P.S. Dennis I'll give you a shout on the phone. San Diego isn't in the near future for me, but I love Coronado, The Hotel Del especially.
bandaidman
Basic Member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2001
- Messages
- 1,149
I agree, dennis set himself up for that one...and acted petulent afterwards...marc was too harsh but mr wright was wrong in both content and tone. He is right about one thing though...the custom/production issue wil never be settled as too many people make their livings "producing" and selling mass produced "custom" knives. I prefer ag russel's distinction of "handmade" vs "other".
That being said...I like chris reeve knives...owned several sebenzas and a fixed blade in the past....all well made but I quickly "outgrew" them as there are other designs/ makers that produce knives at similiar or slightly higher price points that have improved features and designs for me. That is a personal preference but one that is shared by more than a few who frequent the forums.
The basic sebenzas are rather plain and just didn't excite me after a while and i sold them. Sure they work well but so do many other knives costing half as much. At the prices these knives sell for they need to be more visually interesting for me to buy another. Mr Reeve I believe understands this phenomenon and has introduced the wood inlays, uniques, and the mnandi to improve the line. The only problem then is that you are in the range of many fine customs.
The market constantly changes and so far CRK has done a good job of responding to it and maintaining their quality. I would love to see another new folder design to come out of the shop.....
That being said...I like chris reeve knives...owned several sebenzas and a fixed blade in the past....all well made but I quickly "outgrew" them as there are other designs/ makers that produce knives at similiar or slightly higher price points that have improved features and designs for me. That is a personal preference but one that is shared by more than a few who frequent the forums.
The basic sebenzas are rather plain and just didn't excite me after a while and i sold them. Sure they work well but so do many other knives costing half as much. At the prices these knives sell for they need to be more visually interesting for me to buy another. Mr Reeve I believe understands this phenomenon and has introduced the wood inlays, uniques, and the mnandi to improve the line. The only problem then is that you are in the range of many fine customs.
The market constantly changes and so far CRK has done a good job of responding to it and maintaining their quality. I would love to see another new folder design to come out of the shop.....
Hi All, This is not the end of the world.!!! However, genuine us currency spends all the same and I can see how most want to get the best bang for the buck. (The most value for there dollar). On the used and new market.
Anyway, believe it or not I can see Dennis's point very clearly. He and other dealers are actually preserving the price levels of sebenza's.....therfore makeing the resale market just that much stronger!!
If people undercut a market they lower it for all. Real estate, mechandise, services etc. etc. etc. In a vastly slower economy, I realize some people have to sell at a loss to get liquid cash. But dealers selling at full retail keep the used market more stable.
Later, JC
Anyway, believe it or not I can see Dennis's point very clearly. He and other dealers are actually preserving the price levels of sebenza's.....therfore makeing the resale market just that much stronger!!
If people undercut a market they lower it for all. Real estate, mechandise, services etc. etc. etc. In a vastly slower economy, I realize some people have to sell at a loss to get liquid cash. But dealers selling at full retail keep the used market more stable.
Later, JC