Sebenza slip joint

[klattman]

Don't most of us here sharpen our knives far more often than necessary?

If so then ipso facto - ALL of those knives have edges that OUTLAST our actual usage.....

I know that sounds like a silly example -
but it is simple FACT.

I think a lot of people put way too much emphasis on the steel, and actually think
great steel = great blade

Nothing could be further from the truth.

here's another really silly example -
take the current "best" steel - whatever you like - S30V, VG10, BG42, 154CM - properly hardened and heat treated -
sharpen to whatever favorite angle like 20deg per side (40deg total).

WoW! great blade huh?

Yes.... it will be "hair popping" sharp, and score paper......

BUT what if the steel stock was 1" thick?

Does anyone still think that's a great knife blade?

I have read many reports where a SAK blade with its less than premium/exotic steel out cut other blades of "superior" steels -
I've done it myself to prove it - it easily out cut blades of "superior" steel - and these were well respected knives and not some junkers..........

Please take a look at some ad-hoc cutting tests in this thread:

Convexed Edge

Victorinox SAKs are "best" in the opinion of some because they simply perform -
in actual real use,
and not just by specifications.....

But if it's fancy material that's wanted -
why not have customized handles?

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net

I knew VT would show up here eventually.


However, IF there was a vic soldier like I specified, the blade geometry would be the same, BUT you would have better steel and Ti sides to boot. That would COMMAND sebenza-like status and an equal demand and price.

I see geometry as sort of irrelevant becasue I only buy knives with thin blades and I convex them anyway, including all my traditional SJs and SAKs, so they all cut the same, but my D2 and S30V and VG10 blades last many times longer between sharpenings. So the steel does matter, at least for me.

My opinion is that the smaller and thinner the blade, the harder the steel (steel type, tempered to maxium all-around performance) you want. A big thick knife will not slice well anyway, so why not use a softer (type of) steel that is cheaper and can put up with impacts better?

The one thing that makes SAKs better than anything else is the what you get for the price. But "sebenza-like" in my mind means overkill for 99% of a knife's use. It has to be desired beyond its pure utility.

 

[UnknownVT]

My opinion is that the smaller and thinner the blade, the harder the steel you want. A big thick knife will not slice well anyway, so why not use a softer steel that is cheaper and can put up with impacts better?

How fine the steel grain is as important for a sharp blade, and hard often is more brittle as you've just pointed out, so the micro-fine edge is much more prone to (micro) damage....
thus edge holding is NOT just how hard the steel is.......

For example I have a David Boye BDS (Boye Dentritic Steel) that probably will hold its edge better than most of my other blades..... and I know it's not that hard.

The one thing that makes SAKs better than anything else is the what you get for the price. But "sebenza-like" in my mind means overkill for 99% of a knife's use. It has to be desired beyond its pure utility.

Yes, I can understand that...
"more than one needs"
Just like that Ferrarri I want so much -
at least SAKs are RED like a Ferrarri

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net

 

[klattman]

How fine the steel grain is as important for a sharp blade, and hard often is more brittle as you've just pointed out, so the micro-fine edge is much more prone to (micro) damage....
thus edge holding is NOT just how hard the steel is.......

For example I have a David Boye BDS (Boye Dentritic Steel) that probably will hold its edge better than most of my other blades..... and I know it's not that hard.

That's a good point. Wear resistance is diffrerent than hardness even though it is _usually_ correlated because steels are made as hard as possible, while retaining as much wear resistance as possible. Generally a more wear-resistant steel can be made harder...but this is not always the case...it can be complicated... subject of another thread though...

My solution is to convex everything which probably helps avoid micro-chipping, since the edge has more inherent strength.

 

[brownshoe]

All the analyzing aside, I know from many a boy scout camping trip that my swiss army knives came home dull after two nights and a day and half of fun. I got much better performance out of my carbon steel western fixed blade boy scout knife. It would come home grey and sometimes with rust spots, but always with a still serviceable edge. SAKs are fine if you cut apples and string, but if you use a pocket knife hard, you can easily dull one in a day.

 

[UnknownVT]

All the analyzing aside, I know from many a boy scout camping trip that my swiss army knives came home dull after two nights and a day and half of fun. I got much better performance out of my carbon steel western fixed blade boy scout knife. It would come home grey and sometimes with rust spots, but always with a still serviceable edge. SAKs are fine if you cut apples and string, but if you use a pocket knife hard, you can easily dull one in a day.

I'd be the very first to applaud real-life practical examples...
and I also acknowledge SAK steel is not the most hi-tech or premium.

however sometimes one may have cut something that can easily damage an edge without realizing it -
and therefore draw the conclusion that the blade steel in question was inferior.

Just to give an example please take a look at this thread -
where some ATS-34 performed as BADLY as a SAK blade.....
JFYI - the ATS-34 was on a Chris Reeve small Sebenza....

Rope Cutting (link)

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net

 

[klattman]

I'd be the very first to applaud real-life practical examples...
and I also acknowledge SAK steel is not the most hi-tech or premium.

however sometimes one may have cut something that can easily damage an edge without realizing it -
and therefore draw the conclusion that the blade steel in question was inferior.

Just to give an example please take a look at this thread -
where some ATS-34 performed as BADLY as a SAK blade.....
JFYI - the ATS-34 was on a Chris Reeve small Sebenza....

Rope Cutting (link)

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net

Posts about cardboard cutting:

CASE 'Tru-sharp' Steel (24 feet) vs. SAK (38 feet):

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2880019&postcount=50

Queen D2 (125 feet):
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2879998&postcount=5

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2818911&postcount=12

 

[UnknownVT]

Posts about cardboard cutting

Many thanks for the links to the cardboard cutting -
however I do already acknowledge that Victorinox SAK steel is not the most hi-tech or exotic -
but probably already satisfactory for most people's everyday usage of a knife -
it has been for me of EDC for over 23 years.....

and if I were cutting cardboard or carpet all day -
I'd use a Stanley ultitity knife with replacable blades

If you have access to SOSAK - then perhaps this thread might also be enlightening -

Are we too picky?

It seems to be "common knowledge" that plain carbon steel is superior to stainless steels -
perhaps in theory too -
as the author of that SOSAK post above was BFC member jackknife - who also posted on carbon vs. stainless
here (link) - posts #20 and #23.


--
Vincent

http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net

 

[klattman]

Well for me, it's the difference between sharpening 1-2 times a week and 1-2 times a month. Of course, the SAK is always nearby anyway...

I want to apologize for turning this thread into a 'steel faq' thread.

 

[Spydiefan04]

GREAT NEWS I have scoured the net and found UK Penknives available at decent prices, but before I buy 2 (one for carry, one to save) I've got one BIG question. How resistant to closing is the knife??? Especially say compared to a Case Hawkbill, the stiffest SJ I know of. I can deal with and EDC without a lock so long as it has a good stiff backspring, I carried a Case Large Stockman for years with no trouble, so as long as it's at least that stiff it's all good, looking for some feedback, I may FINALLY be able to retire my Delica (and get a full flat grind, upgraded steel, G-10 and tip-up carry via a low carry wire clip in the process; all the improvements/changes I wanted to see on the Delica anyway)