Sebenza's Equivalent?

[JNewell]

Unless the blade is warped or physically bent (which is not impossible; I've had two Benchmades arrive with warped blades), it is essentially impossible for a Sebenza that is properly assembled to have an off-center blade.

 

[Steel_Addiction]

You are not "paying for the name" when you buy a sebenza.

You have to compare apples to apples, all of the other ti framelocks are lacking some of the features of the sebenza.
1. A pivot bushing
2. Strong detent/lockbar
3. Top notch fit and finish through in through out down to the very last detail

I think the pivot bushing and the f&f demand a higher price right out of the box.

There is a reason that the alias is half the price, it lacks all of the above.

A lot of custom makers won't do a pivot bushing since it demands such a high tolerance that it's so easy to screw up. I have contacted quite a few custom makers to see if I could get a titanium framelock knife built with a pivot bushing and 4 out of the 7 turned me down and 2 never returned my emails and the last said they could do it and never did it, havn't heard from him since 2009.

For you to get a true equivalent would be hard, you can sure get better such as a Lochsa but that also demands a much higher price.

 

[gooeytek]

A pivot bushing setup definitely makes operation smoother, but it isn't as expensive as people might think and certainly not as big of a deal to have in a folder. The problem is that the main pivot diameter becomes smaller than it should have been without the bushing. A 1/4" - 7/32" pivot bushing setup will usually have a pivot that's not much thicker than 1/8". You can get a 0.240" diameter pivot bushing kit for less than $5.

 

[Steel_Addiction]

The bushings themselves are not that expensive it is the time and machining that it takes to get it exactly where it needs to be, to allow you to fully tighten down the pivot screws with all the force you could possibly exert and still not pinch the washers.
It then gives you the perfect amount of tension every time, with absolutely zero blade play.


That is why the washers have to be matched to the blade, because not all the blades or washers are exactly the same, they vary, very very slightly, in the thousands of degrees of difference.

 

[dark impaler]

To the OP...

If I had prior knowledge of the existence of Sebenzas and yet they were unavailable...would save up the extra cash and pick up a custom. As for the Sebenza, anything at a lower price point...is just that...lower. Other knives can come close...they can touch on the key design points of the Sebenza, be composed of the same materials and such. Yes, they can come close, but they still wouldn't be a Sebenza. What a Sebenza is comprised of, goes beyond the tangible and visible and that is what sets it apart.

 

[kawr]

A pivot bushing setup definitely makes operation smoother, but it isn't as expensive as people might think and certainly not as big of a deal to have in a folder. The problem is that the main pivot diameter becomes smaller than it should have been without the bushing. A 1/4" - 7/32" pivot bushing setup will usually have a pivot that's not much thicker than 1/8". You can get a 0.240" diameter pivot bushing kit for less than $5.

Highly suggest you research the subject matter at hand (crk's pivot bushing) before chiming in.

 

[popedandy]

Sometimes I wonder if we could use a "why a Sebenza" subform. The same discussion takes place about once a month. Some folks think they are worth it, some don't. That isn't likely to change. I recently bought myself a small Sebenza 21. It was a special occasion and I wanted to treat myself well. I handled several other knives at the same time, including large Sebenzas, Mnandis, and a Sage 2. The small Sebenza 21 fit my hand like it was made for it. I have plenty of other knives and many of them are very well made, but that specific CRK is one of only two knives that feel just perfect to me.

I think that folks who rely strictly on logic to decide if/when they are going to buy a knife probably only own a couple, and they probably didn't pay much for them. I consider them to be knife users, but not knife people. Knife people don't restrict themselves to only the knives they need and don't particular care if anyone else understands or not. The same thing applies to my Sebenza. I was seriously considering buying one, I had the money to do so, I handled them and found one that really appealed to me, I bought it, and I'd gladly do it again.

 

[archieblue]

Love my Strider SmF. But it's the only knife I brought with me for the holidays & this thread reeeeeally makes me wish I stashed a Seb in my manpurse for travels. It's not only one of the best made knives... it's also one of the most diverse.

 

[gooeytek]

Highly suggest you research the subject matter at hand (crk's pivot bushing) before chiming in.

what more research do I need to do besides having taken one apart? really, it isn't a big deal. you can get a Darrel Ralph-designed pivot bushing set from knifekits (which I have, and am putting it in another custom), for less than $5. It is not much different from the CR pivot. It makes a huge difference, and isn't an expensive mod. My gunsmith put roller-bearing washers in his ZT0301 and it is a world of difference. Those parts cost him a whopping $8.

 

[hardheart]

Highly suggest you research the subject matter at hand (crk's pivot bushing) before chiming in.

highly suggest you actually have something to contribute before chiming in

Sebenzas are sold at MSRP because they are required to be by CRK. Plenty of other knives have the same MSRP. What they would be sold for with a policy that allowed online retailers to compete through price adjustments would definitely be lower. Doesn't matter about a pivot bushing, nuclear reactor, or vegetable juicer being built in.

 

[JNewell]

It is a big deal when it's done to the tolerances that CRK achieves. The new Spyderco system, for example, is not comparable.

A pivot bushing setup definitely makes operation smoother, but it isn't as expensive as people might think and certainly not as big of a deal to have in a folder. The problem is that the main pivot diameter becomes smaller than it should have been without the bushing. A 1/4" - 7/32" pivot bushing setup will usually have a pivot that's not much thicker than 1/8". You can get a 0.240" diameter pivot bushing kit for less than $5.

 

[kawr]

highly suggest you actually have something to contribute before chiming in

Sebenzas are sold at MSRP because they are required to be by CRK. Plenty of other knives have the same MSRP. What they would be sold for with a policy that allowed online retailers to compete through price adjustments would definitely be lower. Doesn't matter about a pivot bushing, nuclear reactor, or vegetable juicer being built in.

What a great post yourself. You are pretty pathetic going around as many threads you can to start shit. NOthing better to do huh?

 

[kawr]

what more research do I need to do besides having taken one apart? really, it isn't a big deal. you can get a Darrel Ralph-designed pivot bushing set from knifekits (which I have, and am putting it in another custom), for less than $5. It is not much different from the CR pivot. It makes a huge difference, and isn't an expensive mod. My gunsmith put roller-bearing washers in his ZT0301 and it is a world of difference. Those parts cost him a whopping $8.

The bushings are machined to different tolerances. Its not about the cost of materials like you keep suggesting.

 

[MVF]

To answer the OP's question, how about an AG Russell Acies? Gets lots of very good reviews. Personally, my grail is a Lochsa.

In a different vein, there's the Gold class Griptillian w/CF scales and an M4 blade that's considerably less than a Seb.

My Seb just doesn't do that much for me. I appreciate it as a good knife, but it hasn't knocked my Mini Grip (or Ritter M4 Mini) out of my pocket for EDC. Maybe it needs to go back to the "spa" because, to me, the action isn't all that smooth. It is a nice package with some good features, but I never would have bought it for full price.

 

[marthinus]

since we have drifted a bit in this thread here is a post I did a while back, food for thought to those that are new and reading this.

Well, here is some food for thought, or just some good reading material regarding tight tolerances, that CRK is renowned for, locks and high dollar knives that Sal Glesser, owner of Spyderco has mentioned through the years on the forums (ps, search is your friend).

Another thing to remember is that the Manufacturing Quality award that CRK has won so many times are not chosen by a panel, it is voted for by fellow knife makers. Even Bob Dozier, a very established maker in his own right has CRK pocket knives and I love his motto of : if it feels like climbing through a barbed wire fence, there is something wrong. Slim, sleek and simple knives.

[youtube]nI_73zvGx5Y[/youtube]

A few weeks back, in this thread, someone asked if there was a Spyderco which could compete with the Sebenza. Sal eventually chimed in. His post was primarily a response to someone's skepticism regarding the origins of the framelock. He noted that he had, in his personal collection, a Chris Reeve knife with an earlier lock of Chris' called the "Lock 45". He further noted that it dated back to the 1970's and was the predecessor of the Reeve Integral Lock. That lead to someone asking what it looked like, at which point he suggested sending it to me to be photographed. He also noted in a later post that it was a small knife. It arrived a couple days ago and he wasn't kidding about its size. For the benefit of those who like "dimensional data" it weighs 1.375 ounces (40 grams) has a closed length of 2 13/16" (71 mm), a blade length of 2 7/32" (57mm) with a 2 1/16" (52mm) cutting edge, and is 5/16" (8mm) thick. For those who find photographic comparisons easier to visualize, the first photo below shows it with a Kiwi and my LH Mnandi.

Beyond that, it's an intriguing design. The action is glassy smooth and the lock up is rock solid despite the fact that the blade is only supported from one side. The small thumb stud and smooth handle, thin on the off side, make it difficult to open, but might be less of a problem for someone right handed and with better motor skills. No clip, that was probably not even a gleam in Sal's eye yet. I'm assuming the handle is titanium anodized to a bronze hue but that, and any other questions regarding it would best be answered by Sal, or someone intimately familiar with Chris Reeve's early knives.

Closed, "front" side:

Closed, lock side:

close up, to show one of the two ball bearings:

The balls do not serve as detents, just to smooth the action. Only friction holds the blade closed.

Another close up, note the angled locking surfaces on the blade...

Lock side view, half open. You can almost see the lower ball bearing:

Top view, almost fully open:

Fully open, lock side:

Finally, the design does have one peculiarity, you can fold the blade in the wrong direction, at least until the thumb stud makes contact with the frame...

Paul

My Personal Website - - - - - - A Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting - - - - - - Kiwimania
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
Spyderco Collector # 043 - - WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twsited up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam

Well, I cannot speak for Chris Reeve Knives, but I will offer an opinion.

I've known Chris and Ann for many years. We worked together when Chris was in South Africa.

A CRK knife is not a custom knife, nor is it a production knife. They are in a class by themselves. They've taken many years to develop their reputation.

Each piece is custom made by skilled custom makers. CRK tolerances and standards are the highest I've seen in processes like surface grinding and heat treat. There is a limit to their production capacity.

Chris is pretty anal on quality. "Quality is time. = Time is money". He pays his craftsmen a fair wage, and he charges a fair margin, he gives the world a product like no other. Chris and Ann work hard and they make a good living. "Enormous profits" is an inside joke that Chris and I laugh about. Frankly, I think they'd feel guilty if they made too much money.

The "Market" will determine if his business strategies work, regardless of what they are. If they don't work, adjustments are made....that's how businesses survive.

BTW, the flip side of a "bargain driven" market is manufacturers are forced to import product (export jobs) from China to compete in the need for the "lower price". More complications.

sal

Hi Dulleddown,

More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.

Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.

sal

-----------------------------------------------------

Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

Hi GWLee,

The benefit of tight tolerances is usually for long term durability as well as smooth function. Long term durability is difficult to determine in a short term decision. That's why reputation is important.

sal

Nice video.

High dollar knives are high dollar because they cost more to make. It might be materials (Titanium, unubtanium, etc.), it might be tolerances (Chris' has lotsa zeros after the decimal before hitting numbers), it might be labor (carving, engraving, etc.).

Sometmes those differences are difficult if not impossible for even the trained eye to detenct, generally impossible for a new student.

Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there, sometimes it just means you can't see it.

sal

At the same time there are many people that feel the knife is not worth it, I did until I read Sal Glesser's comments and bought one myself after 3 years of saving (the knife was later taken in a mugging) and I was UTTERLY UNDERWHELMED when I bought it, even though I handled it before hand I just felt like owning something of true quality for the first time in my life (like a good quality car/suite/watch/camera). Until I used it non stop, on the farm etc and everything just started "flowing" and making sence. I replaced the stolen knife with an Insingo. I will always have a CRK and they retail for around $625 here. They are, for me at least, worth it and my personal connection, what the Sebenza has meant in my life, makes it special for me.

I have rambled a bit, but I hope some of what I have said has helped you to form your own opinion on the matter.

 

[hardheart]

What a great post yourself. You are pretty pathetic going around as many threads you can to start shit. NOthing better to do huh?

That's a delicious bit of irony there, since you are the one who does nothing more than insult other members with posts that are a total vacuum of information or insight. You throw around insults and swears, all backed up by nothing but ignorance and absolute stupidity. Good luck in your continued pissant trolling. I remember those quotes by Sal, and the thing that kinda sticks out for me is how he mentions that the differences really can't be seen without specialized equipment and in the long term. That's where the diminishing returns really kick in. A very pedestrian knife can last a generation quite easily, and being hand tools used for gross cutting actions, the precision fit is just not going to be perceived. There is time and labor involved in the production of a Sebenza, absolutely no doubt? My personal view is that the extra zeroes after the decimal are an embellishment, something that does not improve the knife in ways that matter to me. If the steel, lock, and handle were different, I would pay for the precision. I've spent more than double the price of a Seb a few times, so it isn't the cost.

 

[snowreaper1]

In my experience Sebenzas are one of the more consistent in regards to every knife in the shop usually leave without an issue on them.
So basically all the things us knife lovers look for in a knife like no blade play, centered blade, lockup, blade grind, etc. Of course theres
always an exception here and there but its mostly once in a blue moon. But for $400 thats pretty much expected and CRK delivers.
But theres a lot more to a Sebenza than just fit n finish. In regards to just function and performance Sebenzas are and continue to be
at the top of the class for its simple ready to work design. Yes, it doesn't use super steels like Spydeco but a Sebenza is the sum of all
its parts. Add em all up and you have a classic.

 

[gooeytek]

The bushings are machined to different tolerances. Its not about the cost of materials like you keep suggesting.

The pivot bushing set I got is machined to tolerances of .0002" and made from hardened stainless. I never suggested it was the cost of the materials alone, that's just what a precision pivot bushing set costs, I don't know what more to tell you.

I agree that a quality knife is worth more than the sum of its parts, be it production or a custom. I've held, opened, and closed sebenzas, striders, hinderers, & umnumzaans side by side with some customs that are around the same price range (notably Brian Fellhoelter & Brad Southard), and there is a very noticeable difference. I will always buy production knives since aside from sprint run pre-orders, those don't require a long wait. However, when the price and workmanship of a production folder is up where quality customs can be considered an option, the pedestal doesn't look as high anymore.

 

[kawr]

The pivot bushing set I got is machined to tolerances of .0002" and made from hardened stainless. I never suggested it was the cost of the materials alone, that's just what a precision pivot bushing set costs, I don't know what more to tell you.

I agree that a quality knife is worth more than the sum of its parts, be it production or a custom. I've held, opened, and closed sebenzas, striders, hinderers, & umnumzaans side by side with some customs that are around the same price range (notably Brian Fellhoelter & Brad Southard), and there is a very noticeable difference. I will always buy production knives since aside from sprint run pre-orders, those don't require a long wait. However, when the price and workmanship of a production folder is up where quality customs can be considered an option, the pedestal doesn't look as high anymore.

.0002" tolerance in relation to what? CRK has to fit each sebenza individually with bushing+washers to make sure they are a perfect fit for that knife. Thats why they never just send out replacement washers or bushings. The pivot bushing set you have might be made to high tolerances but its not going to perfectly fit the knife because every knife isnt made to the exact same. I hope that made sense, I'm not very good at explaining things.

 

[kawr]

That's a delicious bit of irony there, since you are the one who does nothing more than insult other members with posts that are a total vacuum of information or insight. You throw around insults and swears, all backed up by nothing but ignorance and absolute stupidity. Good luck in your continued pissant trolling. I remember those quotes by Sal, and the thing that kinda sticks out for me is how he mentions that the differences really can't be seen without specialized equipment and in the long term. That's where the diminishing returns really kick in. A very pedestrian knife can last a generation quite easily, and being hand tools used for gross cutting actions, the precision fit is just not going to be perceived. There is time and labor involved in the production of a Sebenza, absolutely no doubt? My personal view is that the extra zeroes after the decimal are an embellishment, something that does not improve the knife in ways that matter to me. If the steel, lock, and handle were different, I would pay for the precision. I've spent more than double the price of a Seb a few times, so it isn't the cost.

To summarize: You are a sad, angry person who likes to validate their self worth by going around to every thread and raging at anything you dont agree with. I guess you really dont have anything better to do.