selecting a battle rifle

My idea of an ideal battle rifle is a Winchester classic Model 70, rotating claw extractor, medium wt. barrel, no sights other than a good Leupold scope and bases, glass bedded action and floated barrel...and I would prefer a wood stock with a dull oil finish in either .270, .280 or 30-06. If you needed a rifle over the counter immediately I would go with the Ruger 77R, and I could have it up and running well in 15 minutes flat from the time of purchase. Our snipers in Viet Nam would have drooled over what we can buy over the counter these days. Another winner is the Weatherby Mark V Ultralight in .270 or 30-06......I just gave mine to my son-in law in November...and 0.7" groups at 100 are the norm. 6 3/4 pounds with scope.
 
This is all very helpful, and hopefully for others too. Thanks for indulging my questions everyone.

I have come to look at these .308 in 3 categories. The M1's and M14's in the first. HK, CETME, and FN's in the second. AR type bodies in the third. If I had to be in the mud (which I'm not) I'd go with the first category, right? But since I'm not, accuracy and spraying power come up as important. Isn't it true that the AR's, no matter who the manufacturer, will be tempermental and unreliable once they've put a lot of rounds thru them? I.E. they jam up when dirty, right? I've been tending to lean towards the FN or HK's for this reason. If it was accuracy only, they win there over the AR's also right? Still talking .308 here.

On a side note, it seems FN's have a better rep than the HK's, but how do you get one? My gun shop has like 6 HK clones from JLD on the shelf at all times. I've never even seen an FN in person. Can you get them still?
 
DSA not only has the blueprints, but they actually have the Steyr tooling now, too- they make their rifles here in the US of A. There are also FALs made by others. Even Century-build rifles usually work, and can cost under $500, sometimes.

While I'm not a major AR-15 type fan, there are many who have fired even hundreds or thousands of rounds through them with almost no maintenance, with little or no problems. I would expect an AR .308 gun to be the most accurate of the types, with HK probably next. M1As can be tuned to be more accurate than most FNs, but require a lot of care to keep them that accurate. This is not my personal experience, it comes from knowledgeable friends, with years of experience with the weapon, such as Edmund Rowe, Jeff White, and our own Dave Rishar. I have a MOA FAL gun.

The FN should be at least as tolerant of abuse as the M1A, and the front sight is less vulnerable to being knocked askew. It has long been suggested that the FN prototype would have been adopted by the US had it been made in the USA.
 
Someone told me yesterday that a Socom can be fired in the mud. Is that rumor?

I saw on the new last night while they were doing a report on Iraq, they had a plattoon walking down some random street on patrol. Every single one of them had AK-47's strapped on. I couldn't believe it. I was like, who issued them those?
 
Are you certain they weren't Iraqi? Both the ANA and the Iraqi Army use AKMs. One of the contractors here on the camp actually has an RPK. (He'd prefer an M4, because it's lighter.)

Don't know about the SOCOM, but I've seen pics (on FAL Files, maybe?) of someone who chunked his FAL out into mud and water, pulled it out, and kept shooting. :D
 
I understand that some units are using ak's in Iraq because it can confuse the insurgents in city fighting. An ak and an m-16 sound very different-the insurgents can id and track american forces simply by the sound of their firearms in an urban brawl.

john k
 
Regular Iraqi troops use AK's/AKMs, and at a glance they look like our soldiers. Was it mistaken identity?


munk
 
Not a shadow of a doubt they were white bread Americans in full digi-camo. It was a 24 hour news show that was talking about Iraq, and it was just a platoon walking by a camera on patrol. Totally white bread. I said to my wife, look at their guns, and she was like "hey, you have one of those."

I was really surprised cuz I always see them with AR-type carbines tricked out with rails and accessories. I gues they like the AR's, cuz they all have em. Don't they jam when dirty or after heavy use? At least that's the rumor. You'd think they'd dump them if they weren't reliable. But they're all using AR's. What's the most common manufacturer the military is commissioning for those?
 
I don't know who the most common is. Bushmaster has had a contract. Colt, and I believe even FN. There are most likely others.

FriendofBill's; I'm a fan of the M14/M1A and think that rifle gets a harder ride here in this forum than most everywherelse. The literature surrounding the weapon emphasises accuracy and reliability. I would look closely at the AR 308's: one recently was the NRA's 'rifle of the year'.


munk
 
Ahh me, how times have changed. Changing calibers? That's not modularity, thats a Lego set. Modularity, that is, interchangability, is defined on a much lower set of standards in Military Science textbooks.
Basically, if you don't have to hand forge a new, uniquely fitted piece to repair the weapon, then it qualifies as modular.
(Of course, in some armories, that might have been the case!)
 
Modularity: used by General William Webster to describe self-contained units.

Defined here as "a force design methodology which establishes a means of providing force elements that are interchangeable, expandable, and tailorable to meet the changing needs of the Army."

Defined here as "a system that is designed with standardized units or dimensions, for easy assembly and repair or flexible arrangement and use."

(emphasis mine)

There are all .mil (US military) sites. Modularity encompasses not only interchangeability, but flexibility for expansion or varying options. This is why the traditional M14/M1A is not modular, but an AR-15 or AR-10 (or FN-FAL, to a slightly lesser extent) is. Now, the new SOCOM is "more" modular than traditional M1As, but still not nearly as modular as the other systems I've mentioned. Yes, the LEGO set is an example of modularity. Thanks. :)
 
Spectre, everything you quoted is correct, but it is not complete.
The Industrial Revolution is really what we are talking about. The development of mass-produced, identical products changed the world. At one time, every weapon was basically one of a kind. Soldiers of the civil war couldn't just switch out their triggers or locks. Hand made versus machine made.
That's what I'm talking about.
In terms of military history, this was a MAJOR change.
(At least, the college ROTC textbooks said it was)
The ability to swap calibers is a tiny blip on the screen compared to the change from hand-made blackpowder muskets to machine-made, identical weapons.
In these terms, the M14 is most definitely modular.
I know what you're saying, I'm just saying there is a bigger picture.
 
Great thread! I have to agree with Jurassicnarc as well. Those bolt actions he lists are superb. I have been looking hard at the beautiful Rem 700 LTR .308 with fluted barrel. They also offer it in a package with bipod and scope and sling.

I have a pre-ban Bushmaster Dissipator; 16" barrel with full length handguard. In a concession to the target range I added an aluminium free-float forend. Came with a heavy chrome lined barrel with 1:9 twist. Took off the telestock and installed a full length A2 stock, and topped it with the "old" TA01 4X32 ACOG. Makes for a nice solid compact package.

At the time I ordered it a removable carry handle was not an option, but I believe it might be now. The standard one works fine for me. It is easy to shoot and very accurate, even with the standard trigger.

Now all you see are these foreends with 4 sided picatinny rails for bolting lasers and weapon lights and handles and anything else you can think of to the rifle. I guess a light would be neat, but frankly think that a light is of more use on a defensive handgun or shotgun. This is not the kind of weapon I personally would be using at night.

Norm
 
I own a Century Arms STG58 or FAL and as far as my rifle is concerned it is a very accurate weapon , it would be my choice for long range targets . My poor mans battle rifle is a Eygyptian Hakim in 8mm that was also imported my Century 20 or so years ago , they seem to be fairly rare anymore . Its a good shooter too and the ammo is pretty cheap .
Rodney
 
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