selecting a battle rifle

Wikipedia on FN/FAL

...." additionally, movement of the tilting bolt mechanism tends to return differently with each shot, affecting inherent accuracy of the weapon."

and, "in full automatic mode however, the shooter recieves considerable abuse from recoil, and the weapon climbs off target quickly. Most military forces using the FN eventually eliminated full auto firearms training for the light barreled FAL."


munk
 
munk said:
Ihatehippies;

I only meant we no longer make 'battle rifles' for regular troops. I realize M14's are still in commission. I know a soldier won a Congressional medal of honor with one in Mogadishu (sic)

We have left the 'battle rifle' concept behind. An A4 is not a 'battle rifle'.
If it's true we still issue them to regular troops, that is something I'm not familiar with. I don't recall that since Vietnam.
thanks,

munk
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Ok, I understand. You're right the majority of troops are issued M4/M16's. There are battle rifles in play, though (in the infantry anyway). Usually one per platoon, sometimes if more are available it can be two or three per platoon. The troops carrying M-14's are "designated marksmen" for the platoon or squad. Sort of like an integral platoon sniper of sorts. Just in case you need to reach out and touch something and the platoon doesn't have a battalion sniper attachment. And, oh yeah, that 7.62nato makes a mess out of whatever gets in it's path.
 
We (180 INF) have something like 15 M14s sitting in a container at Camp Phoenix. I talked with one of the sergeants there who fired several of the M14s. He said he couldn't get any of them to group.

The new squad designated markman's rifle is a heavy-barreled M16A4. I am NOT an AR15/M16 apologist, but I'm obligated to tell the truth as I see it. For a modern military, the M16 series is a much better weapon.

For an individual, I think a bolt-action would be more useful. So, basically, the M14/M1A only has a dedicated role of nostalgia rifle for those who like how it looks or like to pretend it was effective as they fight an old war in their mind. (Oh! was that harsh? :D )

John
 
I've long suspected most of you, me too, are being whimsical regarding firearms. The 'govt', if not on our side, has means to deal with all of our goodies.

The condition of the M14's in John's camp is not indicative in my mind of the usefullness of the rifle.
Does anyone remember the young servicewoman taken captive, and rescued in the early days of the Iraq war? All the M16's of this rear company jammed??? Every one??? How quickly we forget! Do you really think a Garand, M14, FAL, or AK if neglected in a rear base camp would have also failed to fire? I don't. I don't even think the Mini 14 jams if left in a closet and taken out for service.

I could conclude the M16 is not a useful weapon because of that specific, but I wouldn't be correct.

"I saw rifle XYZ, once, and it didn't work, so they must be bad."

I'm the antiquated fan of the M14, I guess. If you had my M1A in your company John, I guarentee you would be making hits and grouping beyond most marksmen's ability.

I'm a little surprised by the support of the direct gas on bolt AR. It is made to fail. The design of the locking lugs is prone to jamming with debris. It is not the best rifle in the world. It is a very nice one.

I suspect many like firing the smaller round and are better marksmen with it. The .308 takes more practise.
I was never quite as accurate with the .338

munk
 
The J. Lynch affair was a debacle, start to finish. I would prefer a weapon a little easier to detail, and less prone to malf when dirty, but that doesn't mean it's a bad weapon. As much as I love the FAL, I'm glad I don't have to carry one here. (It'd be great if I never strayed far from a vehicle, though.)

In Lynch's disaster, the CO couldn't read a map, then when he went astray, took the EXACT SAME ROUTE back, leading his troops wide open to ambush. I think any weapon, neglected long enough, can malfunction. The ineptitude shown the Lynch's leadership leads me to believe poor maintenance of their support/crew-served weapons was partially to blame for what happened.

John
 
And one more thing:
all the semi auto .308 bullet chuckers are 'antiquated.' The only reason FN was more modern, even though issued in the same era as the M14, was the ability to be manufactured in country for contract, and the then more modular design. The M14 was expensive to make, and the reciever not easily made in a third world, or second world nation. They could not be made as quickly or cheaply even here.

Does that make this classic rille a bad rifle? No.
It weighs less than the G3 And FN. It is arguably the most accurate. It is reliable, despite recent anectdotal evidence submitted in this forum. No reputable source material for battle rifles lists the M14 as being unreliable or inaccurate.

I may start a seperate thread on Gun Gurus. They're like fitness gurus I guess, or any other guru. I don't believe them!!!

grumble grumble. I think I'm going to look up what the late Ian Hogg had to say about the M14. Unreliable and inaccurate are not among them!!

I get it. The younger shooters like the AR.
Congratulations. Explain to me how a modernized AR-18 would not have been superior??? And it would not jam!!!

munk
 
Explain to me why the AR's jammed in the Lynch debacle. An AR 18 would nto have. A Daewoo would not have. AN SKS would not have!! For heavens sakes.

munk
 
may I say..."Bah, Humbug!!!!"


Gun gurus, if found unworthy of heaven after death, are forced to spend time in purgatory, listening to Michael Jackson tapes and being killed over and over again at 600 yards by unreliable and inaccuate M14's.....


munk
 
I get it. The younger shooters like the AR.
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MUNK! I *don't especially like* the M16/AR15 family. I'd be lying if I didn't admit it usually works pretty well, though.
 
For whatever problems teh AR has, I think we'd be foolish to invest in a new system without the next logistical step forward. I don't see why we should spend the money for a new carbine.

>>>>>>>>

Is the Russian carbine the next step forward? The gas driven, and recoil operation?


munk
 
munk said:
Does anyone remember the young servicewoman taken captive, and rescued in the early days of the Iraq war? All the M16's of this rear company jammed??? Every one??? How quickly we forget! Do you really think a Garand, M14, FAL, or AK if neglected in a rear base camp would have also failed to fire? I don't. I don't even think the Mini 14 jams if left in a closet and taken out for service.
Click to expand...

Indeed, and the jams didn't stop with their M16's -- according the the Army's narrative of the battle, even their .50" MG didn't work correctly. The Army mentioned that it might have been due to improper maintenance. I was not there and I don't want to second-guess the individuals that were, but Ma Deuce is not known for unreliability, if you get my meaning. The M16 catches a lot of flak for this battle but remember that it worked just fine for every other unit. Why not this one, and why didn't their Fifty work either?

As to whether other weapons might have worked better, we'll never know.

John's story about those 14's echoes some of my frustrations as well. The problem is not reliability; they are plenty reliable. The problem is making them and keeping them accurate. I've detailed numerous design deficiencies that contribute to this in the past and won't repeat them again. A civilian owner with a complete toolbox, an uncluttered bench, and only one or two rifles to look after can manage this easily. An armorer with misplaced or otherwise unavailable tools ("But it's been on order for over a frigging year now!" and a metric buttload of finicky rifles -- not to mention occasionally abusive end users -- is another story entirely. I do not miss working on these things.

P.S. John? I'll make a blind wager that it was the front sights. It's always the damned front sights.
 
The front sights....
I'd have thought the action rod, though damaging it in normal use seems pretty hard.

I see your point, Dave.

Do you know there are cassette packs for wheel bearings to bicycle cranks now? You don't replace and repack bearings- you put in a new cassette.
The modular design has lots of advantages.

Yes, I can see your point. Now, will one of you please tell me what you think of the Russian design?


munk
 
An armorer with misplaced or otherwise unavailable tools ("But it's been on order for over a frigging year now!" and a metric buttload of finicky rifles -- not to mention occasionally abusive end users -- is another story entirely. I do not miss working on these things. >>>>>> Dave


This really struck home, the unmistakable ring of truth. If I had an army, I'd want a modular rifle. All these years we've talked about the M14, and this one quote.... now, I can finally understand Dave on the M14.

munk
 
I personaly really like the M16/AR15.
Based uppon the reasons it was created, It's a good design. But two things I have never been able to get over.
-it sh!t$ where it eats.
-and it fires a .22 calibre bullet.
Other than that, it's hard to fault in my opinion.
 
The problem is making them and keeping them accurate.
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That's been my understanding, as well. Not from personal experience, but from knowledgeable friends with the system.

munk, the AN-94? Don't know if it's been in service widely enough to be sure it works okay.

J
 
That's the one. Seems there are possibilities of defeating some kinds of body armor with this design. 2 bullets strike the same hole.


munk
 
I was curious why the HK-91 was glazed over so readily early in this discussion? It sounded like people don't like it mainly cuz so many people do like it? Seriously though, what's wrong with it? Pricey, obviously. So, now JLD is making weld for weld clones right in Merica, right? I can get one for $900. The local gun store guys say they shoot steady inside 500m, but that you can't trick em out with rails, and such so they don't like em. Plus something about the mags being expensive or something? But so what? Anyone?
 
The HK-91 is badly balanced and eats brass. (Interesting fact: if the Germans had been able to obtain the license to make the FAL- called by them the G-1- they never would have made the G-3/HK-91.)

A CETME would be a much better value- still not well balanced, but not as expensive.
 
How is the M-14 not modular?
The trigger group is interchangable, as is the operating rod and bolt (to a degree)
 
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