Serious question! Not a Troll

[The General]

A few days ago, one of my main dealers thru the internet went public in saying that Busse knives would no longer be stocked by him. He also went on to say and I quote

"We just discontinued the Busse line from our on-line knife shop for
lack of interest. We've sold only 3 units in the past 6 months and
that's out of a total of 10,000 to 20,000 knives for the same period.
When they first appeared on the market with lots of press and
advertising they actually sold pretty briskly. No longer. I don't
know for sure but I think the problem is value. While the Busse is an
excellent knife, there are many other carbon steel bladed production
knives that are excellent too but significantly less expensive"

I won`t say who said this out of respect for the individual involved.

My point is this, in the last couple of weeks I have been looking at getting a BM E which I think wil be an excellent knife. However a serious number of people that I have contacted about buying from them, argue that Busse products are way overpriced and do not offer such a huge performance advantage claimed over many competitors.

Has the bubble burst? Are they overpriced? Before we get into a 'If we need to explain, you won`t understand' or 'If you cannot afford it by a cheap knife' let me say I spent a lot of money on a Sebenza and found it worth every penny.

I want to stimulate a debate here as I have also noticed that this Forum is getting a bit light on posts. I am also somewhat worried about this laser cutting issue and edge strength. To reiterate, to me I think a BM E is pricey but I will pay the money if it does what it says on the tin. However we KnifeKnuts must represent a tiny number of potential customers and I am looking at how the Busse range appears to a more 'average' customer. I might well add that the web site has been 'work in progress' for a LONG time and the combat theme is...

I would like to say also that I have been HIGHLY IMPRESSED by the personal response from the Busse team and hope my comments are not seen as inflamatory or as a personal attack on what I see as a great company with a great product.

All the best

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

 

[Wulf]

W.A.,

First, I'd like to comment that the level of demand seen by a particular dealer for a particular product is often affected by several factors other than price or quality. Such factors include the level of promotion, the demographics of the customer base and/or target audience, etc. Therefore, I feel that one should be hesitant to draw conclusions based upon this feedback.

Which, I suppose, is the very reason you posted here in this forum.

Now I haven't used enough knives in enough situations to be able to give you a definitive answer to your specific questions. However, I can proudly say that I very much enjoy the level of performance delivered by my straight handled Busse Steel Heart II, and its value to me is worth every penny I paid for it.

Having said that, let me comment briefly on what "value" means to me in the context of knives. Value to me is the measure of service rendered by a product per unit paid. The value of a Busse is unique to every owner, and its measure includes (but is not limited to):

• Durability and reliability
• Utility and versatility
• Comfort, balance, and ease of use
• Any associated warranties and customer service

So far, my Busse has performed to the highest of standards in each of these categories, with one exception: comfort. But that was easliy remedied with only slight modifications to the micarta handles (which I was aware of prior to purchase).

I mostly use my Steel Heart II for general camp chores when I'm out in the field. It's heft and balance make it a great chopper. Its steel is more rust resistant than I had initially expected given its relatively low chromium content. Its edge-holding capabilities are excellent, and resharpening is quite easy with just a small ceramic rod.

What do you intend to use your BM-E for? Your answer to this question is perhaps the largest deteminant of its value to you.

[This message has been edited by Wulf (edited 01-05-2001).]

 

[tattoo]

Was the dealer selling the custom combat line or the basic line ? Sells could be weak in some areas on the basic line but i have not heard of any custom dealers having sales problems.

------------------
Carpe' Diem
Usual Suspect AKA Tattoo

 

[Boriqua]

I read the same post by the dealer in Rec.knives. He was making reference to the basic line. If we are talking about the custom line it is hard to draw comparisons with anything else. My SH E came with lots of belly, 1/4 inch steel, ergonomic handle, good looking hard wearing micarta scales, wonderfull cutout choil for close delicate work

and an excellent warranty. All for a little under three bills. Sorry guys but it does not seem exsessive to me.

I know perhaps a manufacturer forum is not the best place for this but .... I wouldnt mind seeing a list of some other knives that you think fall into the Busse niche and do it as well for alot less. Remember no stick tang, and no damn rubber handles. If nothing else it gives me an opportunity to look at knives I might as of yet be unaware of.

For example Tactical ops Anaconda which is the closest offering to our busse's that I know of is fabricated of 1095 which is a relatively cheap steel. Im not saying its a bad steel, just cheap. They put sharp teeth all over it. In the palm and at the place where your thumb would sit. Better wear gloves! Great for purchase but OWWwww. For the longest they only offered a tanto point which I feel is not the best field knife design (yes they offer a hunters point now.)

Here is a comparison of the warranties
Busse
"All Busse Combat knives are GUARANTEED against ANY unintentional damage FOR LIFE!"

Tac ops
Fixed blade knives are guaranteed to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the original purchaser. Fixed blade sheaths are guaranteed to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for a period of two years from the date of original purchase. This warranty becomes null and void if the knife is abused. Knives are high quality tools and as such are able to withstand rugged field use and conditions. However, it is incumbent upon the owner to ensure that the knife is kept free of contaminants or corrosive substances and that the use of the knife is restricted to prudent and applicable functions. Any misuse of this knife other than to fulfill normal "knife-like" functions will result in voiding of this warranty. The Company reserves the right to make the final decision as to what is considered "fair use" or abuse."

Both these knives are near the same price point.

I just picked Tac ops because that is the one that jumped into my head at 5:30 AM when I was trying to think of Busse LIKE knives for comparison. Id love to see other examples though. Especially if someone knows of something that is truly comparable for 100.00 - 200.00 less.


------------------
Alex

My Knife Page

[This message has been edited by Boriqua (edited 01-05-2001).]

 

[WTF]

Wulf,

Well said. I agree 100%! Very well said.



------------------
"KEEP IT SIMPLE"

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way"

 

[The General]

Fair and very honest answers. Glad to see we can discus this without insults!

I am looking at the Becker range as an example. I think they are exellent for the money.

I will be using my BM E as a tough chopping, 'trail knife'. I have no need for it to be a 'combat blade'.

At present my load is this.

D2 Ka Bar
Gerber Axe
M2 AFCK
M2 Nimravious
SAK
Leatherman Super Tool

1 more quality folder

I want the BM E to replace the Ka Bar and Axe.

W.A.


------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

 

[Gator97]

Hi All,

Haven't seen that post, but anyway, while 350$ price on BM may be high for some, this is sort of personal thing right?
On the other hand claiming that for the lower price you can get significantly better knife or same performance for significantly lower price is a different thing.
I own quite a few blades in BM price range, including few BMs and other manufacturers and some more blades those are significantly cheaper. All I can say is that nothing in my collection has ever outperformed BM in "heavy duty" works. This includs chopping various materials such as wood, frozen meat & bones.



------------------
zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

 

[The General]

I never claimed a cheaper product would perform better! Far from it!

However the BM E and top line Basic 9 is getting into custom price ranges.

I DO think a BM E would be worth EVERY PENNY to ME! Try not to see my points as a personal attack. No one has said this yet! But still...

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

 

[tattoo]

The price of a Battle Mistress is cheap if consider what a knife this size would be from any well known custom maker, probably in the $ 800/1200 range. Now saying this they are quite a few up and coming makers that you can get a knife from in the BM range. Matt Lamey comes to mind off the top of my head.I have always been of the opinion you get what you pay for, you will always have some trade offs.

------------------
Carpe' Diem
Usual Suspect AKA Tattoo

 

[s002cjs]

Good question, General. I've found myself acquiring Busse's almost compulsively, but only got the first one through normal retail channels (one of the internet knife companies). The other 5 (and one 'apprentice') I was unwilling to pay retail price for, although other channels got what seemed like a better price to me (and yes, I'm usually bidding against the same set of people, probably from here, on E-bay).

For me, I could justify the first one as being a useful addition to my collection, however after one, it already did everything I really needed. Since I couldn't justify the others to myself as well, I found the price a little high since the basics aren't exactly custom collector pieces and I wouldn't use them to their fullest abilities. Others, like the Becker line that was mentioned, are cheap enough to get just to have and play with when the occasion calls for it.

Sort of an interesting question. Maybe people just buy one due to the price, and most of the people who want one already picked one up?

Interesting topic...

Cody
s002cjs@yahoo.com

 

[Marion David Poff]

General,

In the box with my Backers, came a sheet with the Camillus warranty on it.

It specifically says that the following is not covered....

Knives that are misused, abused, or rusted.

------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye mdpoff@hotmail.com

My website, guided links, talonite/cobalt alloy info, etc....
http://www.geocities.com/mdpoff

>>--->Bill Siegle Custom Knives<---<<
-http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives-

"To wait for luck is the same as waiting for death." -Japanese Proverb

"Place you clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark." -Lazarus Long

 

[Brent VanZanen]

to quote my G/F when I told her I had a SH-E on the way...."so this one does everything, lasts forever, and if it ever breaks for any reason it's covered by warranty? I guess you don't need any more knives."

DOH!

 

[Gator97]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The General:</font>

I never claimed a cheaper product would perform better!
I never said you personally did, whoever you were quoting... Besides you posted, I responded

However the BM E and top line Basic 9 is getting into custom price ranges.
IMHO that's quite exaggregated. It's real HARD to find a custom of a comparable size for that price, let alone the performance.
BTW for comparison Mad Dog's 9 inch blades
go over 800$.

P.S. Busse Knife Co. very often is a target for the statements like "our knives are so much better" or "our knives do the same as Busse's but only at a fraction of it's price. Those things come and go

Donno, I haven't seen any of them backing up their claims.
Either way the fact that Busse is taken as a standart for the comparison means a lot. I've seen few times "we're better or as good s Busse". In a way, that's a recognition isn't it

No one say's our knives perform as good as Frost cutlery...
I don't say Busse knives are the best thing since the sliced bread came true, I like them a lot & have a few, someone doesn't, that's fine. After all, if XXX makes a better knife that's not that hard to find out

------------------
zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

 

[straightblastpfs]

$300 is getting into the range of custom knives? Specifically, what "custom" can you get for that money? Now, add to the requirement that it be 9", be tough as south hell, and backed by an unconditional warranty, and what is left?

I have stopped defending Busse knives. Each time a negative comment is made about a Busse, that I have seen, behind it some place stands a competitor...well, a wannabe competitor.

These blades have worked for me for a very long time, under sh*tty conditions, and I have never once had to field sharpen one. In my own selfish way, wish more people would stop demanding Busse knives...the wait would be shorter for ME, and I could own them ALL

Kidding, of course.

General, buy the knife. If you buy it from Prisco and don't like it, or don't like him, email me and I will buy it. How about that for a warranty? H#ll, and I haven't even met Busse. This knife is as good as it gets for the money boys, and I ain't got a dog in this fight.

Bruce Aukerman

 

[sky masterson]

General-on november 11th you posted a new topic.You asked people to donate knives to you for testing.What tests have you done & what are the results.
On nov.18th you posted your entire collection of 58 knives & multi-tools,right here in the Busse forum.What tests have been done on these?I cannot afford 58 knives & I don't have experience in testing;thats why i would appreciate your results.

[This message has been edited by sky masterson (edited 01-05-2001).]

 

[Hoodoo]

Let me give you a simple answer, General. If you like big knives, you will love the Battle Mistress. AND you won't regret the money you paid for it. It's worth it. I have four Busse's and wouldn't trade them for anything.
I also have two Becker knives and they really are great for the price. But they are not made like a Busse. They are good users but don't have the quite the class, the steel, or the warranty that Busse knives have (not to mention the coating is better). Or to put it more simply, with Busse, you get what you pay for (assuming you know what you want to begin with

).

------------------
Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

 

[Darkjedi]

I had never heard of Busse knives till two years ago. Only, a year before that did I start getting hooked on knives and the internet. I started reading Cold Steel's forum, on their site. There I heard about Bladeforums.com, and started reading about Busse knives. Busse knives sounded like the ultimate knives. However, I could not find any Busse products in any local cutlery stores. Eventually, I found an online store and bought a Basic#5 blindly on faith.

All I can say is that I was bit by the Nuclear Bug. I currently am waiting to hear any new news about the Bolo and Folder projects. Again, I am willing to buy on faith, however, my faith will be on a great product and not blind.

In short, I believe any recent slow in sales is due to Mr. Busse and his products. Frankly, He makes his products too well and his guarantee leaves no room for needing to buy other knife if it breaks.

Darkjedi Vaya con dios

 

[The General]

I will deal with this first...

sky masterson, yes I have a few knives, the result of a number of years of collecting. A significant proportion of my blades are low-med priced folders. Why have I not done reviews of those knives? Well because they are mostly average performers that few would be interested in hearing about. When someone has asked about a knife I have I ALLWAYS take the time to help where I can. I DID NOT I REPEAT DID NOT! Ask to have a knife 'donated', I with respect asked to use a LOAN knife for an impartial and honest review. I did post my testing criteria, but on Rec.knives not here, my mistake.

I have done some reviews for the Knives UK website and Kit Lewis is very happy with them. He is waiting for my pics before putting them up on the site. I did not review any of the knives I asked to loan as I e-mailed the companies back advising them NOT to send me a knife. I did not want the hassle or abuse. Others opinions do affect me and I was hurt greatly by what was said. Only the kind comments from a large number of members who privatly e-mailed me to offer support made me stay on this group. If you want to start a fight by raking over a sore wound, don`t expect me to join in. The past is in the past, let it stay there.

1. A knife company will get a free bit of publicity and the review will spark interest.
2. A knife company will only be out of pocket for postage to me.
3. A knife company WILL get the knife back.
4. A knife company IS sending me a very expensive knife to test and write a report on. This knife WILL BE SENT BACK AT MY EXPENSE. I will get the chance to look and play with a knife and show others my opinions. Thats it! I will not profit in any way from this at all, nada nothing! Sweet F A. So why others get so worked up about this, well F U C K them.

sky masterson, name 4 of my knives that you want to hear more about and I will review them and take photo`s when I get a digi camera.


Back to the topic.
BKT blades are not as good as a BM or Basic9. I accept this. The comment about the Busse being into custom prices is unfair from me. For that I appologise, what I aught to have said is that it puts them in the low end custom folder price range. Or to put it another way a Bod Dozier that is smaller can be had for less. Not a fair comparison. I accept that. But pretend I did not use that poor analogy for a min. I will buy a BM E and it will cost me $350 at least plus P&P. Call it $400 in the end. A heluva lot of cash. Is the knife 3 times better than a BKT NO. Is it worth $400? IMHO to me YES IT IS!

Is it worth that much to joe average? Or a non KnifeKnut? That is my question, it strikes me that the Basic line has not done very well. I have been told this by many different dealers now. The Custom range is a different matter so lets let that go for now.

I was offered a Basic 9, brand new at not much more than $200 from Busse. That is a GREAT price and what it aught to be. That is my point. Comments from dealers and that e-mail from Busse was what made me ask this question. If they offer the knife at that price, why not offer it as the RRP? They would sell a lot more. If I was not so intent on getting a BM E ( my heart is set on it) I would have snapped the offer up right away.

I hope this explains my post a little better. Again Hoodoo I find myself agreeing with your point...I Must be ill

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 01-05-2001).]

 

[Andy Prisco]

Thought it would be worth mentioning that the anonymous dealer mentioned at the beginning of this thread bought the Busse Basics line from distributors, such as Matthews and Blue Ridge. He did not have a direct relationship to the Busse Shop.

What does this mean? His stake in the line was simply something to sell among the other brands he stocks...he has never seemed to have been enthusiastic about the line, and has publically stated his opinions about other makers offering comparable performance for less money. He is certainly entitled to do so I might add...to each his own. And, he moves a TON of knives. Nothing wrong with that!!!

However, touting that attitude toward the Busse product and then announcing that he will no longer be carrying the line is not surprising.

The question is not value in my opinion at all. Busse Knives, believe it or not, are used my many dealers to sell OTHER knives...example...

"..yeah...I have Busse's!!! But why buy one when you can have a Becker or Cold Steel for less?...they perform just as well." Again, to each his own.

However, imagine the presentation another way...like the one MANY dealers use I might add...

"yeah....I have Cold Steel and Becker..but have you seen a Busse? Here's the performance tests in print...here's the testimonials....here's the testing data...no other knife comes close...!!!"

In the words of my good friend and fellow dealer, Greg Bachley from Skylands Cutlery, "Buy the best you can afford!!!"

If you can't afford a Busse, that's totally cool and understandable...not everybody can. But if you CAN, why be directed to a less expensive knife, which offers LESS performance?!? Fact is, there is NO knife less expensive that offers more performance than a Busse Combat Knife, period. And there is NO data that supports otherwise.

It's all in the presentation of the truth. And the truth is that Busse Combat's door is always open to the competition...step up to the window, anywhere, anytime, in public!

Nuff said...






------------------
Andy Prisco, Manager
Sharper Instinct, LLC
Phone: 1-201-493-2469
Orders-Toll Free: 1-877-557-5200
Fax: 1-201-493-2039
Visa/Mastercard Accepted

Authorized Dealers:
Busse Combat Knives

Busse Combat Custom Variant HeadQuarters
http://www.sharperinstinct.com/hq

Sharper Instinct Main Website
http://www.sharperinstinct.com/

 

[The General]

Appart from the dealer thing, I pretty much said all that already!

As Wulf correctly guessed, I wanted to here from users of Busse products and not just the dealers side of things. Andy I have heard the same argument countless times in my business (electrical retailing). I forgot who said this but:

"The truth is a three edged sword, yours, mine and the truth"

I am looking for opinions and thoughts, discussion and response. No formite has attacked my questions, suggestions or opinions.

For the record (again)

1. Busse are worth it (to me)
2. They out perform all other cheaper knives.
3. They are backed by a cast iron company.

At which point did I poke you in the eye Andy? I like the look of your products and want to buy one. So I think the Basics are overpriced! So what! If they sell well what I say counts for jack ****. Here is that e-mail boys and girls.

"Just finished eating another pre-Christmas dinner and thought I would check
in on the forums to see what was going on.

If you need more pic's of the blade's, go to our website at
www.bussecombat.com and you can view all of the current models. (Both the
Battle Mistress E and the #9 Basic)

Check out the tip designs of both. The BME is truly a drop point which I
believe is what you are looking for.

Both knives are extreme performance blades. You would be pleased with both.

Availability: The #9 Basic is currently available and could be shipped to
you next Thursday or Friday. (The shop is closed until then.)

We just began another run of the BME's and are getting ready to grind the
blades. The laser cuts are finished. I would estimate about a five week
wait.

I hope this e-mail helps answer your questions as some of the post have
already done.

Feel free to e-mail me back or call me directly at 1-419-923-6471. I will
not be back at the telephone in the shop until Thursday but will be checking
my e-mails over the holidays.

Sincerely,

David Roberson
Vice President, Sales
Busse Combat Knife Company

PS Cost of the #9 at full retail is $286, I call sell it to you for $228.80.
The BME is $347 and both include the sheath. S/H is extra and I won't know
that until Thursday."

A GREAT offer yes? Why am I getting flack here?

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 01-05-2001).]