Settle an argument for us about edge retention.

Atlas Knife Company

Atlas Knife Company

Joined
Feb 16, 2010
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Dave is telling me that O1 holds a better edge and is easier to sharpen. I tell him he's a dinosaur and that CPM-S30V(S35VN) holds an edge much longer, but is far more difficult to sharpen and that's the reason it isn't in every kitchen. Which holds a better edge in general, carbon or stainless. More specifically, O1 or CPM-S30v using a common HT, nothing super special. Specifically, and I know someone has these sitting on their desk, CATRA results or cardboard cutting numbers would be helpful.

Charles

PS Note that I have a new username!
 
Apples vs oranges, which has better flavour when both are properly ripe?

O1 will take a sharper razor edge and hold that fine razor edge longer than S30V. S30V takes a more aggressive edge and will hold a working sharpness longer than O1. If I want to cut wood, fine leather or food, I would use O1 because push cutting and a fine edge are important. If I wanted to cut rope, carpet, hide/hair, building materials, and cardboard, S30V would be better.

I have had both Spyderco and Benchmade EDC folders in S30V and was always sorry they would not get or hold a razor edge. RWL34 will, but I doubt that it will cut cardboard as long as S30V.

Difficulty in sharpening? Pah. Fewer carbides mean O1 sharpens quicker, that doesn't mean S30V is "harder" to sharpen, and with diamond or ceramic it doesn't seem to be all that different.
 
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Go to Knife Reviews and Testing in this forum. There is a huge bunch of testing that has been done there. Frank
 
I like apples best when in the form of good cider. :D
 
Atlas Knife Company said:
Dave is telling me that O1 holds a better edge and is easier to sharpen. I tell him he's a dinosaur and that CPM-S30V(S35VN) holds an edge much longer, but is far more difficult to sharpen and that's the reason it isn't in every kitchen. Which holds a better edge in general, carbon or stainless. More specifically, O1 or CPM-S30v using a common HT, nothing super special. Specifically, and I know someone has these sitting on their desk, CATRA results or cardboard cutting numbers would be helpful.

Charles

PS Note that I have a new username!
Click to expand...

It's about carbide size, number of carbides, and geometry.
A well heat treated O1 will take a much finer edge than any stainless except AEB-l. 52100 will get even finer, as will W2, 1095, and Hitachi White. They have smaller carbides, and can take a very polished edge. I have gone to 10,000grit, but know a maker who goes to 30,000 grit on his kitchen knives. With stainless, there are way more carbides, and they are larger. I use S35VN, and don't think anything above 2000 grit is useful. The stainless will hold the edge much longer, even 200-300% compared to the carbon steels, but once you slice a tomato or onion with a super fine edge, you will be addicted to it. That fine edge on a carbon steel blade, or AEB-l will require more maintenance, and a good end grain cutting board.
 
I find CPM-S35VN the best all around stainless. It takes a very sharp edge and holds it quite well.

AEB-L will take the finest edge of any stainless steel. It is basically .70% carbon with 13% chrome. There are no large carbides....just the ingredients needed to get a very fine and hard edge. One might call it stainless O-1.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I find CPM-S35VN the best all around stainless. It takes a very sharp edge and holds it quite well.

AEB-L will take the finest edge of any stainless steel. It is basically .70% carbon with 13% chrome. There are no large carbides....just the ingredients needed to get a very fine and hard edge. One might call it stainless O-1.
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All very good info. What about Elmax compared to CPM-S35VN. I only ask becuase I have used the CPM-S35VN (and it performed great) but I have a large piece of 3/16" Elmax that I am waiting to make a batch out of.
 
When you are discussing edges, sharper vs. longer lasting, you also need to keep the user in mind. At the risk of having all the ladies boo me, in my experience, most of the ladies I know will use a knife until it won't cut butter before they get it sharpened. For them, S35VN will be much better than AEB-L or 52100. OK, ladies, you can all boo now.

Tim
 
night man said:
What about Elmax compared to CPM-S35VN.
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Elmax has better edge holding than S30V. S30V has better edge holding than S35VN.

To get maximum performance from Elmax the heat treatment must mach the use of the knife. Decide how the knife will be used. That will help you decide what hardness to choose.

Honey crisp is the BEST!

Chuck
 
Tim is very much to the point. Not only is there apples and oranges, there is apple sauce and orange marmalade.
The comparison of steels is very hard to do unless the same knife shape, edge, and use are compared. Elmax is great for one thing and S35VN is great for another. Just because they aren't great at the same thing doesn't mean they aren't great steels.

To be honest, almost every popular blade steel is going to make a great knife with proper HT.
 
I like Fuji Apples the best for slicing an eating right out of the crisper drawer of the frig.

Charles,
I prefer stainless steel for culinary especially! There is another factor to consider here if you are going to be making knives for sale and that is how much maintenance a steel will take vs its use.

While most of the knife nuts around here may take care of their knives well enough to use carbon steel the general consumer will have a carbon steel kitchen knife looking like an advertisement for needing a Tetanus shot in a week or two. Unless you are very picky about who you will sell one of your knives to you just might have some knives coming back with people saying, "Gosh? I just put it in the dish washer! Can you fix it back like it was?"
Or, "Well I only left the knife wet in the sink with food on it for a few days, why does it look so bad now?"

You get the idea. The only knives in Carbon Steel Damascus I will sell are expensive ones. North of say $650.00
That way hopeful the person buying it has a clue, unless they give it as a gift?:eek: LOL

Stay safe and have fun.
 
The impression that I get is that Elmax is good for at least TWO things depending on the HT, Below 60-61, it is about as tough as high alloy stainless blade steels get while still providing the kind of edge taking and edge retention that you expect for a fairly pricey PM steel. ABOVE , 60. it loses some of that toughness, but its edge retention supposedly approaches that of steels that are much more expensive like the CPM S90V's and M390's of the world.
 
I tested a knife made with Elmax (Peter's Heat Treat 61Rc if I remember correctly) and it really held an edge. I cut up 16' of 1/4" sisal rope and it would still slice phone book paper very well. The video is on YouTube if anyone is interested.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
AEB-L will take the finest edge of any stainless steel. It is basically .70% carbon with 13% chrome. There are no large carbides....just the ingredients needed to get a very fine and hard edge. One might call it stainless O-1.
Click to expand...

Indeed! I like to call it "the stainless steel for people who don't like stainless" :thumbup: It's not just coincidence that some of the most highly-sought-after kitchen cutlery available today is made of AEB-L... and people dropping several hundred dollars on a chef's knife aren't choosing it because it's inexpensive.

Sadly, the thing about using a knife until it won't cut butter does not just apply to the fairer gender. So Tim's point about carbides being helpful for many people is certainly true.

More generally, Stacy's point about all the steels we use making pretty dang good good knives (given appropriate geometry and HT of course) is also true. Although fanatics like us go round and round about a point here or there or cutting 100 pieces of rope instead of 90... any good clean steel, from 58-62Rc, will perform almost amazingly well for people who grew up on crap from Wally World.
 
Question.

Are the majority of your sales to the educated knife buyer/enthusiast or to the person that doesn't necessarily know the intricacies of steel?

Chuck, Honey Crisp. Ftw.

On the other hand I live in central Cali, I'm literally looking at my orange tree as I type this so...
 
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