Shame On You!

J

jawilder

Joined
Jun 27, 2006
Messages
2,331
I have been a member of this forum for a good long time and read it as free time permits. And in the time that I have been here I have learned much from some of the world's most respected knifemakers. I have tried to learn as much as I can so I can be the best possible knifemaker. I have learned wonderful tips, read very informative tutorials, and had a lot of fun sharing camaraderie with fellow knifemakers.

But lately I feel this forum has turned into a witch hunt where anyone who has a different HT method or understanding is criticized to the point where they go to other forums or stop sharing their experiences altogether.

When did the knife become more important than the knifemaker? Why do we run off knifemakers that we hope to emulate? I'm afraid that this forum is turning into a bunch of underexperienced but over opinionated knifemakers. There are way too many critics here who spend more time with a mouse in their hand than a bar of steel. It's like we are standing on a bridge but shooting out the pillars that are holding the structure together.

In short, mind your manners. Know your place. And remember that a fool is known by his many words.
Jason
 
A couple of fitting quotes

The difference between a smart man and a wise man is that a smart man knows what to say, a wise man knows whether or not to say it. ~Frank M. Garafola
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When you're arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the same thing. ~Author Unknown
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I think it is important that we have discussions that put what we do into question. If we remain civil. :o
 
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jawilder said:
I have been a member of this forum for a good long time and read it as free time permits. And in the time that I have been here I have learned much from some of the world's most respected knifemakers. I have tried to learn as much as I can so I can be the best possible knifemaker. I have learned wonderful tips, read very informative tutorials, and had a lot of fun sharing camaraderie with fellow knifemakers.

But lately I feel this forum has turned into a witch hunt where anyone who has a different HT method or understanding is criticized to the point where they go to other forums or stop sharing their experiences altogether.

When did the knife become more important than the knifemaker? Why do we run off knifemakers that we hope to emulate? I'm afraid that this forum is turning into a bunch of underexperienced but over opinionated knifemakers. There are way too many critics here who spend more time with a mouse in their hand than a bar of steel. It's like we are standing on a bridge but shooting out the pillars that are holding the structure together.

In short, mind your manners. Know your place. And remember that a fool is known by his many words.
Jason
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"When did the knife become more important than the knifemaker?"

In my opinion, it always has been.

It's all about the art / performance / results for me.

It's true some makers become well known, but it's BECAUSE they do nice work.

I'm here to learn and sometimes share info that will help me achieve my goals as a maker.

My respect and admiration is for talented makers who share their ideas and methods.
 
12345678910 said:
"When did the knife become more important than the knifemaker?"

In my opinion, it always has been.

It's all about the art / performance / results for me.
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Which is greater, the Mona Lisa or the one who painted it? It is one thing to critique someone's methods and the performance of their tools, but it is another thing to place more value on the man's knife rather than the man who made the knife.
 
As a novice to the art I don't feel that the Shop Talk section is all that bad of a subforum, actually encouraging for the most part. There's other sub forums on this site that people seem to always be looking for a fight but I don't feel that here.
 
jawilder said:
Which is greater, the Mona Lisa or the one who painted it?

It is one thing to critique someone's methods and the performance of their tools, but it is another thing to place more value on the man's knife rather than the man who made the knife.
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The painter -Leonardo da Vinci is dead, he may have been a jackass- I'll never know.

All I know about him is what he has left behind.

It will be true for everyone sooner or later.
 
"Two Men Enter, One Man Leaves!"

Maybe we can have a "Put up or Shut up" forum....:) (Just a joke calm down)

The rules are if you are going to call out a maker on his methods then a challenge will be issued.

Both makers are given a piece of the same steel from the same bar and make a knife according to the methods they promote.

The knives are then sent to an independent person who does not know who made which blade.

The knives are then put through a set of rigorous standardized tests

The winning blade will be announced and its maker.

The loser much say they are sorry :)

All in fun guys. But if you are going to say someone is wrong on how they make something I would hope you have actually tested their product and your accusations in the real world and not just in your own mind.
 
I have noticed a few trends...

Some new makers get intoxicated by the flood of information. They find something they feel works, want to tell the World and bust out of the gates before they know which direction to run. They often trample across the paths of experienced makers because they cannot make the distiction between good and bad information.
Established makers can sometimes corner themselves. They experience success with a certain steel or heat treat and hang onto it for dear life, as if "change" will negate all the past work they've done.
Many intermediate makers hang inbetween. Knowing enough to give themselves the false sense of "knowing enough". (This is probably me:cool:) They feel an obligation to help every new guy that pops up, as they attempt to slide in as a peer among the makers who inspired them in the beginning.

I could go on with the characterizations but in a nutshell, communities fluctuate like the tides... there will be difficult times when the waters become poluted but if you can keep it out of your mouth, you'll live to see the big fish swim back in.
 
AVigil said:
"Two Men Enter, One Man Leaves!"

Maybe we can have a "Put up or Shut up" forum....:) (Just a joke calm down)

The rules are if you are going to call out a maker on his methods then a challenge will be issued.

Both makers are given a piece of the same steel from the same bar and make a knife according to the methods they promote.

The knives are then sent to an independent person who does not know who made which blade.

The knives are then put through a set of rigorous standardized tests

The winning blade will be announced and its maker.

The loser much say they are sorry :)

All in fun guys. But if you are going to say someone is wrong on how they make something I would hope you have actually tested their product and your accusations in the real world and not just in your own mind.
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In all seriousness, that actually sounds like a fun idea, but it would have to involve several "testers" as everyone has a different opinion on what makes a "good" knife, and a neutral party who chooses the testers at random.
ex:
1. Maker A makes a knife
2. Maker B makes a knife
3. Both Makers send knives to "neutral" party
4. Neutral selects 4-6 random testers, who have no knowledge of the blades origins
5. Testers are sent both blades at once and given 2 week to test them but not "abuse" them i.e. not stabbing car hoods and such, tasks are limited to knife related tasks.
6. After each test the blades are returned to Neutral party with a written review/comparison of both blades and which one the feel is "better".
7. Blades are resharpened and/or repaired to original state and sent to the next tester.
8. After all testers have participated, Neutral Party compiles reviews and results and posts a thread revealing the results of the testing.

Oh, and since it would be a test of a makers methods, both knives would have to be the same neutral design without the makers artistic influence.
 
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That sounds like a huge undertaking.... but it would liven the community up.

"First rule of KnifeClub...."
 
Dave Behrens said:
In all seriousness, that actually sounds like a fun idea, but it would have to involve several "testers" as everyone has a different opinion on what makes a "good" knife, .
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I think in all these posts lately, that is an important distinction.

Some people think it's very important that a knife should be bendy, others don't & those two sides will never meet in the middle.
 
Rick Marchand said:
That sounds like a huge undertaking.... but it would liven the community up.

"First rule of KnifeClub...."
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"You don't talk about KnifeClub. Second rule of KnifeClub..."
I think it would also be incredibly motivating, for old and new makers alike to see which methods actually produce "better" results.

12345678910 said:
I think in all these posts lately, that is an important distinction.

Some people think it's very important that a knife should be bendy, others don't & those two sides will never meet in the middle.
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True, some knives have the best HT ever, but the design profile sucks, and vice versa, mine are usually some abominalbe combonation of both:D;) Everyone is right and everyone else is wrong:rolleyes:
 
I havent really posted much in the past few months and I have noticed there is alot more bickering going on. I figured the posters knew each other outside of the forums and just like to hang that way. But I am seeing thats not the case. I am weary of asking questions here sometimes and would rather do it through pm's instead cause of this reason. I am a fairly new guy in this. Sometimes I type before I think and I guess it shows cause most of my posts don't get many responses. I still owe all I have learn to this forum and I am still grateful to you all.
 
Discussions go awry when folks make unsupported claims or speak in absolutes...... This happens everyday. Don't ask for links.;)
 
I'll tell you, Frank, lately I have probably started typing a hundred different replies to threads only to end up canceling the reply before posting. Sometimes it's because the answer has already been addressed, but mostly it's because my post will either A) not add to the discussion in a meaningful way, or B) not make a hill of beans difference to the mindset of the previous posters.

Maybe I'm just getting old(er) and turning codgy, but I don't enjoy engaging in the debates near as much as I used to.

--nathan
 
Oh, jeez, Rick. You're going to make an unsubstantiated claim and then preemptively tell us not to ask for proof!?!? The NERVE...!!

j/k ;) :D

--nathan
 
Nathan I do the same, its better to stay out of some things.

Happy New Year BTW buddy!
 
I am posting the last part of this in several threads . It is in response to many emails and posts about this being a challenge between the two of us.

I see the humor your "Put up or shut up" post, and I'm glad this is not a contest between Ed and me. I would probably loose such a contest.
But your statement that one must be superior to another to earn the right comment on any shortcomings is not exactly so. The child did not need to strip naked to prove the emperor had no clothes.



One thing clear is that pretty much everyone has an opinion on this.
Some will say that there are holes in the procedures as presented, and there is a very understandable caution not to step on any toes.
One person will talk about the poetry of the man, and another about his years of experience.
Others will go "Tish-Tish", you should not talk ill of the man.
Most of the discussion is good debate, and well intended.
There have been several spin-off threads on the topics discussed. To the most, all comments have been civil and on topic. I commend all who have posted on their behavior and restraint.

I'll post my final comments, as I think this subject has had all the good discussion that can be said...leaving room for only degradation.

FINAL COMMENTS:
Contrary to some peoples belief, I do not dislike Ed Fowler. I respect him as a man and a bladesmith. I don't think he is a liar or a fake.

I never doubted he has great ability, fame, and makes a good knife.

I am not a shill for Kevin Cashen....he can, and has, used his own voice when he feels speaking up is needed.

This is not a "My Way" vs "His Way" subject. It is about the articles in Blade magazine.

I believe that some real good will come out of this discussion. Maybe I won't be invited to the next BBQ at the ranch, but those there will certainly be discussing the metallurgy of HT in more depth.
Those attending many other BBQ's, in many places on this planet, will also discuss HT methods....This is all a good thing.

Many new smiths will take some good info from both sides of this issue and do additional studies...resulting in better blades, and better understanding of how they got that way.

I wish Ed Fowler well, and a long and happy life. The best way that this could end is for both of us to come away with some things learned, and pass those things on to others. In not too many years, both of us will be gone, but hopefully, people will still be learning new things.

I am going to stop here. I hope Ed reads this, or someone sends it to him. Happy New year , Ed - Stacy
 
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