Shame On You!

I think there has been a push by some to sterilize and dehumanize knifemaking, but I think it’s a big mistake,… at least from a cultural fine art standpoint.

That being said, I really don’t have a problem with industrial type art, it’s just not my thing. I really like old antique knives and modern hand/eye knives, the mark of the artist,… the human quality. To me a handmade knife is more than just a knife.

To me it’s like comparing a real diamond to cubic zirconium.
There will always be an audience, market and place for both.

If pure performance was the only thing that mattered, then there really wouldn't be any good reason for a handmade knife at all.
 
Last edited:
bladsmth said:
But your statement that one must be superior to another to earn the right comment on any shortcomings is not exactly so. The child did not need to strip naked to prove the emperor had no clothes.
Click to expand...

I said that? :confused:
 
Im a pretty strong traditionalist..
You know I have learned to mix the traditionalism with the scientific in some regards..Mostly heat treat..I would rather forge in coal anyday..Coal has a historic, tangeible value thats hard to describe...Lisa cant stand it and uses a gasser..People ask me all he time "How do you weld damascus in coal without screwing it up?" How do you know when its ready when you cant see it?".....The best answer I can give is that I just know..Practice and countless hours spent in front of a fire..
My sister is an artist with a BA in fine arts from UK..My mom,dad,uncles all woodworkers..I use to sketch a lot myself..I do consider myself an artist of sorts..
I completely understand where Tai comes from..A beautiful multi-bar migration period sword/seax is an absolute thing of beauty and art in its highest form to me...A curly maple stocked hand built longrifle will leave me slack jawed for many minutes..You can look at some of these piece and literally see the blood,sweat,tears and lost sleep it took to bring them to life....
Though I have to add that I know Im doing better by my work and my customers when I soak my 1086M or W2 for 8-10 minutes @ 1450* then quench it in Parks 50..I just know that its true..
...........................................
I think that if we leave either Art or sound mechanics out of knifemaking our final product suffers in the end..
 
I come from a fine art background so sometimes it's a little hard for me to relate to the guys coming from a science and engineering background and vice versa I'm sure. I think it's good we are all a bit different and have unique things to bring to the table. What bothers me is when we try to impose our views or philosophies on to others as being the only true, best or correct way to look at things... I'm sure we're all a bit guilty of that, but I would like to be able to express my own views without insulting others. I'm not sure if that's possible, but I for one would like to try... in spite of the limitations of language and the forum as the medium.
 
Kentucky said:
I think that if we leave either Art or sound mechanics out of knifemaking our final product suffers in the end..
Click to expand...

What is it do you consider "Art" in a knife(honest question). Is it purely astetic, and a physical apperance? I personally see art in how effectively an object functions, and while I can totally appreciate an "art knife" from a craftsmanship angle I am so much more concerned with mechanical function ie; ergos, geometry, HT aspects, versitility, task performance.

A handforged, damascus blade, hilt, and pommel, w/ a mammoth ivory handle, inlayed w/ tortoise shell and abalone, w/ brass titanium and damascus spacers, and a handstiched, basket weave, snakeskin inlayed sheath is very beautiful to look at. But when I come across a monsterous looking chopper that can chop through a hardwood, not crack/break, still hold an edge, produce no shock in the handle while chopping or batoning, and is so well balanced that it performs small tasks like a knife 1/3 its size, that is art to me.
 
We'er blacksmiths first..We make tools, everything from hammers, to axes to garden hoes..Theres just a difference, I cant honestly explain it..Maybe you have to have been an artist to see it that way?
Having been a farmer,welder and blacksmith for so long I can certainly appreciate a good tool, but having been an artist I can see the art in some tools..
 
Dave Behrens said:
What is it do you consider "Art" in a knife(honest question). Is it purely astetic, and a physical apperance? I personally see art in how effectively an object functions, and while I can totally appreciate an "art knife" from a craftsmanship angle I am so much more concerned with mechanical function ie; ergos, geometry, HT aspects, versitility, task performance.

A handforged, damascus blade, hilt, and pommel, w/ a mammoth ivory handle, inlayed w/ tortoise shell and abalone, w/ brass titanium and damascus spacers, and a handstiched, basket weave, snakeskin inlayed sheath is very beautiful to look at. But when I come across a monsterous looking chopper that can chop through a hardwood, not crack/break, still hold an edge, produce no shock in the handle while chopping or batoning, and is so well balanced that it performs small tasks like a knife 1/3 its size, that is art to me.
Click to expand...

Dave,

HT, function and performance can also be considered part of the art of knifemaking. I think often aesthetics and art get confused. Aesthetics is a branch of philosophy that deals with the nature of beauty. Art generally deals with aesthetics, but is not necessarily limited to it.

That being said, I have no problem with a non functional art knife being called a knife.
 
There can be great artistic merit in the simplest of things... a chair, a hammer, even a pair of chopsticks... if they are designed well and achieve the design goals.

I think people get too hung up on words like "art" and "function" and fail to understand they aren't mutually exclusive. Each represents a continuum, and the two continua overlap in many places. Even if you focus all attention on making something as functional as possible, there are aspects of art in that form.

Art is not a dirty word.
 
There has always been a bit of a divide between, fine art, commercial art, industrial art etc..

Design is generally considered part of art.

To a large degree art is in the mind of the beholder/creator. Its' a hard thing to define to everyone's liking,… but we know it when we see it.

Generally speaking art is considered a form of human communication and/or expression.
 
Last edited:
Tai Goo said:
Dave,

HT, function and performance can also be considered part of the art of knifemaking. I think often aesthetics and art get confused. Aesthetics is a branch of philosophy that deals with the nature of beauty. Art generally deals with aesthetics, but is not necessarily limited to it.

That being said, I have no problem with a non functional art knife being called a knife.
Click to expand...

Me neither, I often ask what someone considers art to see which side of the isle they are speaking from/to. I have a great amount of appreciation for many art-knifemakers and the work they produce, and I also don't mind seeing "work knives" with artistic features, the can be quite impressive.

tryppyr said:
There can be great artistic merit in the simplest of things... a chair, a hammer, even a pair of chopsticks... if they are designed well and achieve the design goals.

I think people get too hung up on words like "art" and "function" and fail to understand they aren't mutually exclusive. Each represents a continuum, and the two continua overlap in many places. Even if you focus all attention on making something as functional as possible, there are aspects of art in that form.

Art is not a dirty word.
Click to expand...

Why do I feel so dirty after saying it then?;)

Tai Goo said:
There has always been a bit of a divide between, fine art, commercial art, industrial art etc..

Design is generally considered part of art.

To a large degree art is in the mind of the beholder/creator. Its' a hard thing to define to everyone's liking,… but we know it when we see it.

Generally speaking art is a form of human communication.
Click to expand...

Correction. It is impossible to define art or really any other opinion, to everyone's liking.
 
I think the most widely accepted way to learn about art is to study art history... AND practice art first hand. :)
 
Tai Goo said:
I think the most widely accepted way to learn about art is to study art history... AND practice art first hand. :)
Click to expand...

No wonder people think ART is a dirty word.

My wife drags me to museums as often as she can. I blow through the exhibits in one-third the time she takes, and spend twice as long in the gift shop as she does. I like looking at art... but studying it in depth hurts my brain.
 
tryppyr said:
I like looking at art... but studying it in depth hurts my brain.
Click to expand...

I heard that! I had to take a lot of art history at the universities, for my BFA and MFA degrees. It was painful!... but I learned a lot and am glad I went through with it.

… no pain no gain.

Actually, it is pretty cool, it goes into the history of the various cultures at the time, the science, religion, politics and every possible aspect of art you could imagine, you name it. If you are interested in learning more about art, I highly recommend it.

Probably the hardest part was trying to find something new to say about it, a new angle on it and what they left out... Now that's painful! Regurgitation facts wasn't enough... nor I doubt in any field.


I do it just for fun now. :)
 
Last edited:
By the way, Tai, I saw a video at the Bellevue Art Museum in conjunction with a George Nelson exhibit. The video was part of Nelson's "Problems Of Design" series... ostensibly one that was not included in the published form of his book. The title was "How To Kill People". There wasn't much content in there specifically about knives, per se, but the point of the presentation was that good design solved problems, and that embellishments to the design were often as functional as they were beautiful. I'm looking for a way to get a copy of that video. The production values were LOOOOW... but the message was interesting.
 
I just want to reiterate that "doing" art history and "studying" art history aren't the same. If studying it is hard,... trying to do it can kill you!

I survived it though, and am glad I'm still alive. :)

Studying and regurgitating facts alone really aren't enough in any field... You actually have to participate in it.
 
Last edited:
personally i don't mind beening criticized. and i have been criticized many times here and there...i remember several times i take it too personal, lost my temper and blow up like a little kid too. but one thing i am certain is i have been learning and improving a lot from the criticizing i received. a good argurment sometimes worth weeks of research because it bring in fresh new thoughts from different sight of view. eventrully i learnt to ingore the harsh words but to take the good points from them. but, do not ever criticize me having a big nose, or i will...

anyhow, it is your right to aggree or disagree, as it is for everyone else. it is a good thing that we are all different and imperfect. otherwise why we are still here.
 
hammerfall said:
personally i don't mind beening criticized. and i have been criticized many times here and there...i remember several times i take it too personal, lost my temper and blow up like a little kid too. but one thing i am certain is i have been learning and improving a lot from the criticizing i received. a good argurment sometimes worth weeks of research because it bring in fresh new thoughts from different sight of view. eventrully i learnt to ingore the harsh words but to take the good points from them. but, do not ever criticize me having a big nose, or i will...
Click to expand...

I bet you really don't have a big nose... :)

I guess I shouldn’t give "Anvil Jaw" such a hard time, but he knows I'm just kidding. He kids me back. I guess it just depends who it's coming from. I really don't think his jaw is that big,... but just a funny picture and he likes attention.

We kid each other a lot around here. Hope folks don’t take it wrong. We’re all friends for the most part.

Glad you've tagged on.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top