Sharpening a D2 blade that has NO initial bevel?

[Omega Leather Works]

Hey guys. Soon I'll be attempting to sharpen a knife that is fresh out of heat treat. It has an "edge" that I believe is .020" It's literally flat.

The blade is full flat ground and has been extremely resistant to flat abrasion against sandpaper. Much more so than any knife I've ever tried.

To complicate matters there is no sharpening choil, and the unsharpened edge runs parallel with the ricosso.

One of my (many) concerns is that I won't get the apex centered.

How would you approach this task? Please don't say send it out for the initial bevel, I would like to do it myself. I will consider it, but only if it looks like things are going south quick.

Thanks!

 

[spyderco lover]

Hey guys. Soon I'll be attempting to sharpen a knife that is fresh out of heat treat. It has an "edge" that I believe is .020" It's literally flat.

The blade is full flat ground and has been extremely resistant to flat abrasion against sandpaper. Much more so than any knife I've ever tried.

To complicate matters there is no sharpening choil, and the unsharpened edge runs parallel with the ricosso.

One of my (many) concerns is that I won't get the apex centered.

How would you approach this task? Please don't say send it out for the initial bevel, I would like to do it myself. I will consider it, but only if it looks like things are going south quick.

Thanks!

Well first question would be, what system are you using to sharpen it?

 

[HeavyHanded]

3M makes diamond lapping film in a variety of micron ratings. If you're comfortable working with sandpaper this might be a good option. I'd be afraid to send it out to anyone.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I've often thought about doing a task like that, and my 'go to' solution, based on what I currently have, would be my C/F DMT Duo-Sharp hone (8"). I'd use mineral oil or some other similar means to lube the hone (the feedback is SO much better, especially during very long, heavy grinding sessions). On the blade, I'd use a DMT Aligner guide. The guide would greatly ease the burden of trying to maintain perfect angle over an extended session. A piece of plate glass underneath the hone's holder (I have the DMT holder for the Duo-Sharp) will make for a smoother sliding surface for the Aligner's guides. Adding some oil or other lube on the glass makes that even smoother (eliminates the 'squeaking' noise that oftentimes comes with sliding that plastic guide over the glass; that can become annoying very fast ).

I've done this (complete re-bevelling) with smaller folder-sized blades of D2 and ZDP-189. The extra diamond real estate really makes a difference in working speed. Above all else, a project like this is best done at a relaxed pace. Spread the work out over several sessions (leave the blade in the clamp in the meantime), and don't work so long & hard that fatigue will begin to erode your results. Take your time, and just enjoy the work.

Don't even necessarily have to completely finish the edge this way, either. Just setting the initial acute bevel with the diamond hone makes follow-up finishing and sharpening much easier, on a wider range of sharpening options or methods (your choice). Wet/dry SiC sandpaper is great on D2, in the finishing stages. I'd use it over glass, edge-trailing.


David

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Spyderco lover, good question.

I have...

An Edge Pro (clone, works exactly the same) with an EP 120 grit SiC stone, and the stones that came with the sharpener. I have done the magnet mod, and have a drill stop collar too.

A basic Lansky system with the 4 stones that it came with. I can't see it being much use though.

Two diamond blocks from Harbor Freight. They have 4 sides. I actually find them to work fairly well, although I don't have much to compare them to. The only downside that I see is that they are not perfectly flat, and have the swarf holes which I hate.

I have two 6" SiC combo stones, a Norton economy and an Ace Hardware. I find the Norton to be superior.

I also have a translucent arkansas stone, but again, can't see it being useful.

I have a sh... ton of SiC wet/dry sandpaper in various grits.

Multiple strops

I'm sure I have a few other things I'm forgetting too.

Oh yeah, two belt grinders neither seem ideal. One is a 1x30 Delta and a 4xSomething, with 6" round (vertical) grinding plate on the side. You know the ones, you buy adhesive abrasive disks and stick em on the plate. That thing is actually pretty useful for some stuff. Not so much here.

3M makes diamond lapping film in a variety of micron ratings. If you're comfortable working with sandpaper this might be a good option. I'd be afraid to send it out to anyone.

That actually sounds like a fantastic idea(!). The only problem is that I'm pretty tapped at the moment so I need to stay with what I have available to me. Really good thought though. I'll remember it.

I've often thought about doing a task like that, and my 'go to' solution, based on what I currently have, would be my C/F DMT Duo-Sharp hone (8"). I'd use mineral oil or some other similar means to lube the hone (the feedback is SO much better, especially during very long, heavy grinding sessions). On the blade, I'd use a DMT Aligner guide. The guide would greatly ease the burden of trying to maintain perfect angle over an extended session. A piece of plate glass underneath the hone's holder (I have the DMT holder for the Duo-Sharp) will make for a smoother sliding surface for the Aligner's guides. Adding some oil or other lube on the glass makes that even smoother (eliminates the 'squeaking' noise that oftentimes comes with sliding that plastic guide over the glass; that can become annoying very fast ).

I've done this (complete re-bevelling) with smaller folder-sized blades of D2 and ZDP-189. The extra diamond real estate really makes a difference in working speed. Above all else, a project like this is best done at a relaxed pace. Spread the work out over several sessions (leave the blade in the clamp in the meantime), and don't work so long & hard that fatigue will begin to erode your results. Take your time, and just enjoy the work.

Don't even necessarily have to completely finish the edge this way, either. Just setting the initial acute bevel with the diamond hone makes follow-up finishing and sharpening much easier, on a wider range of sharpening options or methods (your choice). Wet/dry SiC sandpaper is great on D2, in the finishing stages. I'd use it over glass, edge-trailing.


David

Sounds like you've given this some thought since our emails! Forgive me for not specifying exactly what I have, and that I need to use it alone. Like HH, your ideas are always good and appreciated.

*sigh* If I could buy just one thing, I think it would be one of those DMT plates that you can stick in the EP holder. A Coarse or XC sounds ideal.
I'll get a couple of pics up in a few minutes so you guys can get a better idea of what I'm working with.
I'd also like recommendations on what angle you would choose. It'll be used for bushcraft type stuff. Mainly wood carving, food preparation and other relatively light tasks. It won't be asked to baton or any such nonsense, no offense to batoners (is that a word?).

 

[spyderco lover]

Spyderco lover, good question.

I have...

An Edge Pro (clone, works exactly the same) with an EP 120 grit SiC stone, and the stones that came with the sharpener. I have done the magnet mod, and have a drill stop collar too.

A basic Lansky system with the 4 stones that it came with. I can't see it being much use though.

Two diamond blocks from Harbor Freight. They have 4 sides. I actually find them to work fairly well, although I don't have much to compare them to. The only downside that I see is that they are not perfectly flat, and have the swarf holes which I hate.

I have two 6" SiC combo stones, a Norton economy and an Ace Hardware. I find the Norton to be superior.

I also have a translucent arkansas stone, but again, can't see it being useful.

I have a sh... ton of SiC wet/dry sandpaper in various grits.

Multiple strops

I'm sure I have a few other things I'm forgetting too.

Oh yeah, two belt grinders neither seem ideal. One is a 1x30 Delta and a 4xSomething, with 6" round (vertical) grinding plate on the side. You know the ones, you buy adhesive abrasive disks and stick em on the plate. That thing is actually pretty useful for some stuff. Not so much here.




That actually sounds like a fantastic idea(!). The only problem is that I'm pretty tapped at the moment so I need to stay with what I have available to me. Really good thought though. I'll remember it.




Sounds like you've given this some thought since our emails! Forgive me for not specifying exactly what I have, and that I need to use it alone. Like HH, your ideas are always good and appreciated.

*sigh* If I could buy just one thing, I think it would be one of those DMT plates that you can stick in the EP holder. A Coarse or XC sounds ideal.
I'll get a couple of pics up in a few minutes so you guys can get a better idea of what I'm working with.
I'd also like recommendations on what angle you would choose. It'll be used for bushcraft type stuff. Mainly wood carving, food preparation and other relatively light tasks. It won't be asked to baton or any such nonsense, no offense to batoners (is that a word?).

Well it might take a while, but the EP can put an amazing edge on D2. Just be prepared to take a while doing it

 

[Bigfattyt]

Ive had pretty decent results with sandpaper. But the last two D2 knives I reprofiled with my belt sander took a surprising long time even with a fast 1x30 belt!!!

So, I don't envy doing it by hand!

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Alternately, make a platform to hold the Harbour Diamond block at an angle, you sharpen the blade flat (ala Japanese sword polisher).

That way you can keep coming back and having quite consistent angle. I'd think several sessions as mentioned by David is a must, lest fatigue takes over joy of doing this.

With the described use, guess it would be 25 inclusive?

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Alternately, make a platform to hold the Harbour Diamond block at an angle, you sharpen the blade flat (ala Japanese sword polisher).

That way you can keep coming back and having quite consistent angle. I'd think several sessions as mentioned by David is a must, lest fatigue takes over joy of doing this.

With the described use, guess it would be 25 inclusive?

Without having time to look up Japanese sword polishing, are you referring to a Sharpmaker type setup?

Here are some pics of the edge. As you can see, it's not only the edge, but how it runs into the ricosso that is a problem.

 

[9blades]

I would recommend starting with a diamond file from Home Depot, if memory serves they're about $12

 

[Omega Leather Works]

I would recommend starting with a diamond file from Home Depot, if memory serves they're about $12

Seems like that would make for an awfully nasty bevel, but I could be wrong. My goal is a good looking edge, but who really knows what I'll end up with.

I'm still thinking about cutting a small sharpening choil. I just can't get past how the edge just keeps going into the handle. It's not only ugly, but doesn't seem like it will be very workable. Maybe a small dremel bit, I'll have to see what I have.

 

[yoda4561]

I start edges like that on a belt sander, sometimes I'll even finish on one but it's tricky when you don't have a variable speed. The delta 1x30 works fine and I'd start that edge off using a fresh 120 grit belt, just keep the edge moving and be really careful near the tip so you don't overheat it. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to reduce the work you have to do by hand to finish the edge. To keep things even by hand just sharpen a few hundred strokes on one side and then flip and repeat using the coarsest/fastest cutting stone you have. Once you start getting near the apex reduce the number of strokes per side until you get into genuine sharpening territory.

 

[james terrio]

I would not care to tackle any actual stock-removal/reprofiling work on hardened tool steel without the benefit of electricity.

I start my edges post-HT with an A45 or A65 belt at moderate to high speed. Use the same number of light passes on each side, until it just starts to reach an apex and begin to cut. It takes literally seconds.

.020" at the initial edge is awfully thick for a blade that size. I would very much recommend continuing to grind the bevels (following the current geometry) until the edge thickness is more like .015" or even .010" if you really want it to cut well.

Who ground the blade to begin with? Most makers and manu's leave extra "meat" before HT to help reduce/prevent warpage, and finish-grind afterwards. Many don't grind the bevels at all before HT.

There's nothing particularly difficult about grinding or sharpening a blade without a sharpening notch or choil... just pay attention. Personally, I don't care for notches at all; their main effect on a blade is to make it hang up on every dang thing you want to cut. YMMV.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

I start edges like that on a belt sander, sometimes I'll even finish on one but it's tricky when you don't have a variable speed. The delta 1x30 works fine and I'd start that edge off using a fresh 120 grit belt, just keep the edge moving and be really careful near the tip so you don't overheat it. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to reduce the work you have to do by hand to finish the edge. To keep things even by hand just sharpen a few hundred strokes on one side and then flip and repeat using the coarsest/fastest cutting stone you have. Once you start getting near the apex reduce the number of strokes per side until you get into genuine sharpening territory.

I've actually thought of that. Well not all of that, but the idea of using the grinder to bring down the work load. I've screwed up more than one edge with that thing though, and completely destroyed a brand new Blur about 8 years ago, but then I guess I *was* drunk when all of that happened.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

If you can with belt sander, that'll be better. For initial work, a diamond file should do also. The finishing can follow later.

The idea on platform is: raise the stone to say 15 degree, you sharpen with the blade flat

Here's the YT posted by Jason:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-B7ACeHvSSM&desktop_uri=/watch?v=-B7ACeHvSSM

From this thread:
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthre...a-kitchen-knife-with-3mm-damaged-edge-and-tip

 

[slamosam]

I would not care to tackle any actual stock-removal/reprofiling work on hardened tool steel without the benefit of electricity.

I start my edges post-HT with an A45 or A65 belt at moderate to high speed. Use the same number of light passes on each side, until it just starts to reach an apex and begin to cut. It takes literally seconds.

.020" at the initial edge is awfully thick for a blade that size. I would very much recommend continuing to grind the bevels (following the current geometry) until the edge thickness is more like .015" or even .010" if you really want it to cut well.

Who ground the blade to begin with? Most makers and manu's leave extra "meat" before HT to help reduce/prevent warpage, and finish-grind afterwards. Many don't grind the bevels at all before HT.

There's nothing particularly difficult about grinding or sharpening a blade without a sharpening notch or choil... just pay attention. Personally, I don't care for notches at all; their main effect on a blade is to make it hang up on every dang thing you want to cut. YMMV.

Good post James :thumbup: Howerver seem that ht had been done or will be done, therefore heavy grinding w/o a vfd grinder might end up ruined the blade temper. New belt, keep moving, dip in h2o often, no glove (finger thermal sensor )... still not a good option for tinkerers with hobbist equipment.

Strig - Take a 2x or even 1x 60 or 80grit belt, strap it (really tight) to a 2x12 flat steel bar, where the bar is on top of a 2x4x12 wood. Grind aggressively with water. With the belt on bar sharpene, you can get quite close to the plunge line. D2 is not that hard to grind, it shouldn't take more than 12" section worth of the belt to create a bevel for this knife. I've used this approach many times because my 140 & XX & X diamond plates are too dull (broken in) for grinding and I am not going to spend big $ for more diamond plate. HF 4sided diamond should works ok, except hard to get close to the plunge line. I would rather use a $4 alox 60grit stone to grind than hf block. Sand paper on hard backing also should work too, but I found sic dull too fast, while good alox works better.

Heheh I found my old account.

 

[Jason B.]

If its just one blade then its not going to be that bad. A silicon carbide stone or coarse waterstone would be my first recommendation for D2. DMT XXC would also work well.

It will be much easier if you start at a high angle of say 40 degrees per side just to form a apex the gradually lower the angle until you reach the desired bevel angle. You will find this works much faster than just going with a single angle and grinding for hours.

 

[Razorsharp-Travis]

1x42" belt sander, some 36, 80, 120, and 220 grit belts. Finer if you want

Step 1 , thin it down on the 36, take that to about 0.010, its way too thick to be a good cutter, if its already 0.020 , then once you put the bevel on , it will be super thick behind the edge, you dont want an axe now do you? keep the blade cool.

step 2, put the edge bevel on, use the 120, keep the blade COOL. th closer you get to apex, the esasier it is to burn the edge

step 3, thin it down more use the 36, when you feel youre getting there, use the 80, that 0.010 pre edge thingy will be about 0.020 now , thin it down to your desired thickness, Id recommend between 0.005 for a slicer, or 0.014 for a hard user ( hell, id take a chopper to 0.012 and be fine) my pick personally for that knife would be around 0.009

step 4, go to a satin finish on what ever belt you want

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Wow, some really good discussion here. You guys have put on your thinking caps for sure.

I would not care to tackle any actual stock-removal/reprofiling work on hardened tool steel without the benefit of electricity.

I start my edges post-HT with an A45 or A65 belt at moderate to high speed. Use the same number of light passes on each side, until it just starts to reach an apex and begin to cut. It takes literally seconds.

.020" at the initial edge is awfully thick for a blade that size. I would very much recommend continuing to grind the bevels (following the current geometry) until the edge thickness is more like .015" or even .010" if you really want it to cut well.

Who ground the blade to begin with? Most makers and manu's leave extra "meat" before HT to help reduce/prevent warpage, and finish-grind afterwards. Many don't grind the bevels at all before HT.

There's nothing particularly difficult about grinding or sharpening a blade without a sharpening notch or choil... just pay attention. Personally, I don't care for notches at all; their main effect on a blade is to make it hang up on every dang thing you want to cut. YMMV.

You got in right before I posted, I didn't see your post!

Excellent point about the edge being too thick already... Being flat ground it's not going to get any better.

Do you want to apply the bevel? I know that you would make a masterpiece of it, but I'm kidding.

The maker was Gene Martin. It's a lovely knife, I just don't have the means to re bevel it.

I've never found a choil to be bothersome, although I have seen others that didn't like them. They do seem to make sharpening much easier for me personally, but maybe it's my technique or equipment.

If you can with belt sander, that'll be better. For initial work, a diamond file should do also. The finishing can follow later.

The idea on platform is: raise the stone to say 15 degree, you sharpen with the blade flat

Here's the YT posted by Jason:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-B7ACeHvSSM&desktop_uri=/watch?v=-B7ACeHvSSM

From this thread:
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthre...a-kitchen-knife-with-3mm-damaged-edge-and-tip

I'll be watching with keen interest!

Good post James :thumbup: Howerver seem that ht had been done or will be done, therefore heavy grinding w/o a vfd grinder might end up ruined the blade temper. New belt, keep moving, dip in h2o often, no glove (finger thermal sensor )... still not a good option for tinkerers with hobbist equipment.

Strig - Take a 2x or even 1x 60 or 80grit belt, strap it (really tight) to a 2x12 flat steel bar, where the bar is on top of a 2x4x12 wood. Grind aggressively with water. With the belt on bar sharpene, you can get quite close to the plunge line. D2 is not that hard to grind, it shouldn't take more than 12" section worth of the belt to create a bevel for this knife. I've used this approach many times because my 140 & XX & X diamond plates are too dull (broken in) for grinding and I am not going to spend big $ for more diamond plate. HF 4sided diamond should works ok, except hard to get close to the plunge line. I would rather use a $4 alox 60grit stone to grind than hf block. Sand paper on hard backing also should work too, but I found sic dull too fast, while good alox works better.

Heheh I found my old account.

I KNEW it was you bluntcut! I could tell by the belt recommendation.

You're right about the HF block. It's fine except that you can't reach the edges well. Do you have one?

What do you think about using the belt to go to a zero edge with D2 at RC 58 - 59? Might be too extreme.

I can't possibly see flat grinding this on paper... Not with the grits I have anyway. Did I mention I have a baby and my time is limited?

If its just one blade then its not going to be that bad. A silicon carbide stone or coarse waterstone would be my first recommendation for D2. DMT XXC would also work well.

It will be much easier if you start at a high angle of say 40 degrees per side just to form a apex the gradually lower the angle until you reach the desired bevel angle. You will find this works much faster than just going with a single angle and grinding for hours.

I'm now wondering what angle bevel I'll be forced into from the start due to the thick initial edge.

1x42" belt sander, some 36, 80, 120, and 220 grit belts. Finer if you want

Step 1 , thin it down on the 36, take that to about 0.010, its way too thick to be a good cutter, if its already 0.020 , then once you put the bevel on , it will be super thick behind the edge, you dont want an axe now do you? keep the blade cool.

step 2, put the edge bevel on, use the 120, keep the blade COOL. th closer you get to apex, the esasier it is to burn the edge

step 3, thin it down more use the 36, when you feel youre getting there, use the 80, that 0.010 pre edge thingy will be about 0.020 now , thin it down to your desired thickness, Id recommend between 0.005 for a slicer, or 0.014 for a hard user ( hell, id take a chopper to 0.012 and be fine) my pick personally for that knife would be around 0.009

step 4, go to a satin finish on what ever belt you want

Good advice, but as I said, I'm constrained to the equipment on hand.


You guys have brought up some very valid points and some good advice. I'm now thinking that I'm gonna have to send this to a knifemaker for a slight regrind. I guess there's always a convex edge, but this is a pretty small knife and I prefer a v-grind or very slight convex.

What to do...

 

[HeavyHanded]

I imagine you'll wind up with a slight convex no matter what approach you take at this point. If it were me I'd use a silicon carbide stone with a lot of oil, use the entire surface area - the stone will dish some on a job like that. Then up to the fine side and on to whatever. Knifenut suggestion to cut a bevel at 40 so you have a starting point is also not a bad idea.

I don't like choils either....