Sharpening stone oil question.

David Martin said:
hanzo,I've read it as well.John didn't put forth using a dry stone as theory.And he never said the Norton oil was better. DM
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Theory? What he advises is the use of dry abrasive
to eliminate the slurry edge abrasion issue. He's a dry
stone guy. Some of his ideas are spot on and others I
question. He's also a big advocate of steeling edges. :)
Overall I rate the book great and I highly respect the man.

I didn't say he did. I personally don't believe one brand is
better than another and water works as well as anything
other than for the corrosion factor.
 
mbhanzo said:
I've read it and I agree and disagree with many of his ideas.""As to his theory"" on using a dry stone I disagree. If you allow the oil or water to become an abrasive slurry than you are making a mistake and will not get the best results. The key is to keep the stone constantly flushed and clean during use for best results. As to the Norton oil being better:rolleyes: :)
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hanzo,I'm trying to get at what you meant and what you say.Then what John actually said in his book. As they don't mesh.So, I'll let the Norton oil comment go as being a seperate issue and slight.Even though it was inserted in the same paragraph.A seperate thought that John didn't say.
In John's book pg.22 second par. he tells why and does not use the word THEORY. However, I think your hitting it in your second and third sentence above. Even using a lot of oil on the stone as long as you only sharpened (not rebevel) one knife and then wiped it off . He would say,(I think) would only cause the stone to cut slower and you'd still get a good edge.Which meat cutters don't do. On a more agressive cutting stone this may not matter as much as on say a fine Arkansas or fine ceramic. On water stones forget it.
His book is more a advertisment for his company and basic. A good place to start.Not as indepth as Joe Talmadge or Chad Ward's writings.On grits, stones, their matrix's, modern stainless steels and heat treat.But realize John wrote back in early 85. A forerunner of todays knife writers.He cut the path that many later would follow.Many of his conclusions are valid today.DM
 
I have my Juranitch book in hand and on page 22
paragraph 2 and if you read it what John
is saying is that the abrasive slurry created
will actuall abrade and degrade the edge as you
push the edge through the mess. I see nothing as you've
indicated about the use of the word theory here. John
is a dry stone guy.
 
On another side note do you David Martin
or anybody else here know the exact rules and
specs about how John won his Guiness record
for sharpening a dull axe and shaving his beard?

I'd like to know so I can better prepare as I'd
like a shot at breaking his record. I'm not sure if
he used any of his companies angle jigs or special
tools. I need more specific information also as to
how dull the axe is at the start of the trial. I would
be free hand sharpening and most likely starting on
wet diamond stones and finishing on dry ceramic stones
and strop. I think it would be cool to be a record holder. :)
 
mbhanzo said:
I have my Juranitch book in hand and on page 22
paragraph 2 and if you read it what John
is saying is that the abrasive slurry created
will actuall abrade and degrade the edge as you
push the edge through the mess. I see nothing as you've
indicated about the use of the word theory here. John
is a dry stone guy.
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You missed my point.Your the one who used the word THEORY. Its in your quote.Also, in the reference I gave John doesn't use the word slurry.Again your wording.DM
 
I was never direct quoting John but explaning in my own words what he was stating.

What he is saying is that dry stones are better because you avoid pushing your edge through the contaminated fluid as with using a stone wet. This idea is sound with the exception of the fact that the contaminated fluid can be kept clean if one is consistantly flushing the stone during use. I use a Norton 3 stone base loaded with 11" Dmt stones and I regularly turn and flush my stones keeping them cleane and cutting perfectly. The key is to keep the stone surface clean. Do you disagree with this David?
 
Ok, I see more of your tenets.We agree.Just wording it different. Being 25yrs. ago John's wording was different than what we'd use today.DM
 
After thinking about it, Bill De's suggestion of using a pressurized spray oil to periodically clean the swarf off the stone during sharpening may be best.Then afterwards thoroughly clean the stone w/ a cleanser. DM
 
Shaving with an ax is no different than shaving with any other blade. Only the mental image is different. If you can sharpen a blade to shaving sharpness, you can shave with it. The Russian Spetznaz combat entrenching tools were always sharpened on two or three edges for fighting. Why not sharpen a shovel and shave with that? Then you can set your own place in Guiness?

Stitchawl
 
mbhanzo said:
What he is saying is that dry stones are better because you avoid pushing your edge through the contaminated fluid as with using a stone wet. This idea is sound with the exception of the fact that the contaminated fluid can be kept clean if one is consistantly flushing the stone during use.
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The purpose of the slurry is to continue bringing new abrasives to the surface while "washing" away the old ones. What that does is speed up the sharpening process. A concern about dulling an edge by pushing it through the slurry is, frankly, downright silly.
 
Knife Outlet said:
The purpose of the slurry is to continue bringing new abrasives to the surface while "washing" away the old ones. What that does is speed up the sharpening process. A concern about dulling an edge by pushing it through the slurry is, frankly, downright silly.
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Some specialty abrasives require a slurry created for
effective cutting and most I've used were very fine.

The damage I've seen in not keeping a stone clean
and flushed isn't caused by bits of the abrasive but
more likely bits of steel or burr coming off of the blade
and then causing damage as the edge runs into and
over these very tiny bits. This is a great concern when
sharpening very delicate edges like when sharpening
a straight razor.

It all comes back to what type of abrasive is being used,
grit size of the given abrasive, and the type of edge being
sharpened. There is no best way to sharpen. If you are
satisfied with your results you are among the few :)
 
Knife Outlet said:
The purpose of the slurry is to continue bringing new abrasives to the surface while "washing" away the old ones. What that does is speed up the sharpening process. A concern about dulling an edge by pushing it through the slurry is, frankly, downright silly.
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Have you read John Juranitch's book?DM
 
mbhanzo said:
Some specialty abrasives require a slurry created for
effective cutting and most I've used were very fine.

The damage I've seen in not keeping a stone clean
and flushed isn't caused by bits of the abrasive but
more likely bits of steel or burr coming off of the blade
and then causing damage as the edge runs into and
over these very tiny bits. This is a great concern when
sharpening very delicate edges like when sharpening
a straight razor.

It all comes back to what type of abrasive is being used,
grit size of the given abrasive, and the type of edge being
sharpened. There is no best way to sharpen. If you are
satisfied with your results you are among the few :)
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I've read arguments about wondering how many angels fit on the head of pin and I would view that belief as similar. It is simply illogical that detritus suspended in oil could meaninfull dull a knife.

I am quite satisfied with my results. I've sharpened 10's of thousands of knives over the past 50 years and I've doing a good job all that time. Understand that I don't use oil stones but that doesn't change my opinion.
 
David Martin said:
Have you read John Juranitch's book?DM
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I can't remember. I've read several books on sharpening and his might or might not have been one of those. I haven't read a sharpening book for over 20 years, however. I don't doubt that the author does a good job sharpening knives and that he has impeccable technique. But I don't think slurry on the surfact of a stone has prevented him from acheiving whatever success he has enjoyed, even if he believes that.

I'd be interested in results from a scientifially valid test, however, if one exists. Since the comment seems unreasonable to me, it would require more than just what some author wrote to convince me that it is reasonable.
 
oil on a stone is for keeping the pores of the stone open
by suspending the detritus
water movement on a moving stone was to cool the steel and flush the particles away
there are two kinds of sharp
push and slice
 
Knife Outlet said:
I've read arguments about wondering how many angels fit on the head of pin and I would view that belief as similar. It is simply illogical that detritus suspended in oil could meaninfull dull a knife.

I am quite satisfied with my results. I've sharpened 10's of thousands of knives over the past 50 years and I've doing a good job all that time. Understand that I don't use oil stones but that doesn't change my opinion.
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Are you using dry abrasives only? When I use dry abrasives and especially when using very fine dry abrasives I still find myself wiping my blade and the abrasive every few passes to keep the minute particles off and too keep the blade gliding consistantly over the surface.

There is much debate on the topic of sharpening and even a bit of arguement here and there and thats great :) This is passion coming out.. We all can agree that the sharper the better and dull sucks. In the most simple of terms sharpening can be summed up to controlled thinning and texture impartment. Sharpening is more an artform than a simple task or chore.
 
mbhanzo said:
Are you using dry abrasives only? When I use dry abrasives and especially when using very fine dry abrasives I still find myself wiping my blade and the abrasive every few passes to keep the minute particles off and too keep the blade gliding consistantly over the surface.

There is much debate on the topic of sharpening and even a bit of arguement here and there and thats great :) This is passion coming out.. We all can agree that the sharper the better and dull sucks. In the most simple of terms sharpening can be summed up to controlled thinning and texture impartment. Sharpening is more an artform than a simple task or chore.
Click to expand...

No, I use waterstones. I don't worry about keeping the blade clean during the process but I do keep the stones clean with fresh water.
 
Knife Outlet said:
I'd be interested in results from a scientifially valid test, however, if one exists. Since the comment seems unreasonable to me, it would require more than just what some author wrote to convince me that it is reasonable.
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I'm not going to claim that Juranich did a rigorous scientific study. But it's hard to argue with his experience. Here's a portion of what he wrote in an article. It's very similar to what he said in his book:

--------------------------------------
"The basic problem with using oil for sharpening is that as you sharpen, grit from the hone and steel particles from the blade become suspended in the oil and form slurry. The very fine edge you're putting on the blade actually runs into the particles of hone suspended in the oil. It's as though you were trying to sharpen your blade by running it through a sand pile.

I've had this point proved to me many times. A few years ago, we were called into Iowa Beef; the worlds largest. The meat cutters thought our edges were great, until one day management asked us why we didn't use oil. We explained situation, but they asked us to try anyway, just to see what would happen. So we used oil.

It wasn't long before the reports started coming back from the lines that the quality of the edges had dropped. So we cleaned all the oil off the hones and the reports suddenly got better. "
-----------------------------------------

In addition he shows microscope photos of edges honed dry and with oil. Now, I must admit that the photos don't seem all that conclusive to me: They all look pretty rough, though I can see some big chips in one of the pictures of an oil honed edge. Make up your own mind though; you can read the entire article and/or look at the pictures here:

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/Juranitch1977Feb.htm

The microscope pictures are at the very bottom of that page.

Brian.
 
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