Sharpening stone oil question.

bgentry said:
I'm not going to claim that Juranich did a rigorous scientific study. But it's hard to argue with his experience. Here's a portion of what he wrote in an article. It's very similar to what he said in his book:

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"The basic problem with using oil for sharpening is that as you sharpen, grit from the hone and steel particles from the blade become suspended in the oil and form slurry. The very fine edge you're putting on the blade actually runs into the particles of hone suspended in the oil. It's as though you were trying to sharpen your blade by running it through a sand pile.

I've had this point proved to me many times. A few years ago, we were called into Iowa Beef; the worlds largest. The meat cutters thought our edges were great, until one day management asked us why we didn't use oil. We explained situation, but they asked us to try anyway, just to see what would happen. So we used oil.

It wasn't long before the reports started coming back from the lines that the quality of the edges had dropped. So we cleaned all the oil off the hones and the reports suddenly got better. "
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In addition he shows microscope photos of edges honed dry and with oil. Now, I must admit that the photos don't seem all that conclusive to me: They all look pretty rough, though I can see some big chips in one of the pictures of an oil honed edge. Make up your own mind though; you can read the entire article and/or look at the pictures here:

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/Juranitch1977Feb.htm

The microscope pictures are at the very bottom of that page.

Brian.
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I'm sorry, it just doesn't make any sense. Not even a little. If you suspend a steel particle in oil and then run the blade into it, it will push the particle out of the way. There is no way the particle can put enough pressure on the edge to do anything. If the issue is trapping the particles between the blade and stone, then that could happen with or without lubricant.

I don't doubt the author's experience and capabilities. I doubt his interpretation of the cause of the situation he describes. It simply doesn't make sense. I have several decades and 10's of thousands of sharpenings in experience myself and my own experience says that lubricating stones produces edges as good as they can be and in a significantly shorter period of time than with dry stones. To me using dry stones just wastes time.

I'm not criticizing the author or his experience or his book. I don't know him and, if I read the book, I don't remember it. I'm just saying that the statement is illogical, it flies against Newton's laws of action and reaction and I don't believe it. I think something else caused whatever he experienced.
 
First thing I believe we need to clear up is the term lubricant. The fluid we use on our abrasives is more of a solvent than lubricant. We are not wanting to lubricate the stone and make it more slippery or less abrasive. The ( oil or other fluid ) we use is only there to keep the surface of the abrasive clean and flushed.

With regard to the Razor Edge book and John's statements about the negative qualities associated with using a stones wet over dry my opinion is that the oil/fluid used on the stones he was using was simply too dirty and needed changed and flushed more often. Aluminum oxide stones are a perfect example of a stone that if used wet needs constant flushing to keep the surface clean. If you take a Norton coarse 11 inch stone and wet it with any good quality honing oil and then start sharpening you'll indeed see how fast that oil turns into a nasty abrasive paste. Maybe this is why John was a fan of the dry stone? The dry norton would surely stay cleaner and be easier to simply brush or blow off than trying to use the stone with an inadequate supply of fresh oil. I'd suggest that a dry stone would produce better results than an oiled stone if the oil used was very dirty and full of grinding residue.
 
Knife Outlet said:
I don't doubt the author's experience and capabilities. I doubt his interpretation of the cause of the situation he describes. It simply doesn't make sense. I have several decades and 10's of thousands of sharpenings in experience myself and my own experience says that lubricating stones produces edges as good as they can be and in a significantly shorter period of time than with dry stones.
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Because you can not logically explain it does not mean there is not a correlation between his observations and experiences. I.E.: "We used oil and the edges died quicker. We stopped using oil and the edges lasted longer."

I don't doubt your experience as well, but consider this: Do you think you've worked on edges in as consistent an environment as Juranich, with any where near as high a sample size? In English, what I'm trying to say is, Juranich worked at meat packing plants where he and his company sharpened many, many edges every single day and got to see them used for the same tasks over and over again. One hell of a sharpening lab if you asked me. :)

I don't claim to have the experience that many here have. I've read Juranich's book and the evidence of his experience seems "scientific" to me.

Perhaps there's something else at work here as Hanzo suggests with regard to AlO stones.

Dr. P
 
While I enjoy reading the books, and have read Juranich's book, I prefer to do my own testing. In 1975 I bought Juarnich's 'RazorEdge' clamp and stones from him at a show in Houston. It was the first sharpening 'system' I ever used. Following instructions, I always used his stones dry and was very happy with the results.

The next year I picked up a Buck Sharpening Stone kit, and used oil to freehand sharpen with that. I was very happy with the results.

A few years later I bought the GATCO system and used those stones with oil. I was very happy with the results. In later years I went on to purchase almost every sharpening system on the market, eventually get an EdgePro. As you know, we use only water on the EdgePro, and I am very happy with the results.

Because of my results using the EdgePro stones with water, I bought some good Japanese waterstones and used them freehand with LOTS of water. I am very happy with the results.

When I use a DMT aligner clamp, I usually use it with wet/dry sandpaper. I use that dry. I am very happy with the results. When I use a Sharpmaker I use it dry. I am very happy with the results.

Obviously I get 'different' results with each sharpening system (the finest edge coming from the EdgePro used with water.)

Mostly... I prefer water as it's less messy to clean up. As for the actual edge results... they ALL work very well. We can get a tree-topping edge with water OR oil.

Stitchawl
 
I suspect if one were to go with the microscopic super high magnification edge test, and using equivalent grits regardless of media type that the best edge would be from an oil lubricated, continous diamond surface hone. This would provide the crispest edge, the oil acting as a cutting lubricant to prevent smearing of the metal, and the diamonds being sharp and hard enough to cut through any carbides. The final edge would be put on via a draw stroke to prevent the whole "metal floating around" thing and the stone would be flushed after every stroke.

Back in the real world, with pocket knives and axes and such, just being able to treetop hairs is "good enough" and can be done on almost all conventional honing surfaces, oiled, watered, dry, 300, 1000, 100000 grit, as long as they're in good condition and the person sharpening has the skills to make it happen.
 
Hanzo, Good post.Every meat market I inspect I make an effort to look at their sharpening stones during the visit. Through the years I've noticed their stones ( they all use the Norton IM 313 Tri-hone no exceptions) are most always full of swarf and slurry. No one cleans them as John is recommending.I think it does matter as I use the same sharpening system.
Gentry, Good thought as well. John's experience alone deems we respect his conclusions. Most here have no clue how much cutting and sharpening goes on in a major packing facility. Fifty or more men and women cutting meat during each 8hr. shift while its moving on conveyers. Sharpening one knife per day, five days a week, 50 weeks a year. Sure in 50yrs you'll see over 10K knives sharpened. A place like John's speaking of will see 300+ knives sharpened every 24hrs. times 365 days a year. Or well over 110K knives per year.
Read between the lines for yourself, how much more you could learn in a place like that.DM
 
bgentry said:
Because you can not logically explain it does not mean there is not a correlation between his observations and experiences. I.E.: "We used oil and the edges died quicker. We stopped using oil and the edges lasted longer."
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I read it. I'm skeptical. Sorry. Edges last longer because of geometry and finish, not because the stone was wet or dry. There simply isn't any scientific principal that would explain how suspended grunge would meaningfully affect the finish. I'm sure he had an experience in which edges lasted longer. I'm not so sure it had anything to do with the wetness of the stones. I'll change my mind when someone explains it in a logical, scientific manner. I'm not trying to be troublesome. I just have a problem accepting illogical premises without a suitable explanation. Feel free to accept it yourself. I don't mind.

I don't doubt your experience as well, but consider this: Do you think you've worked on edges in as consistent an environment as Juranich, with any where near as high a sample size? In English, what I'm trying to say is, Juranich worked at meat packing plants where he and his company sharpened many, many edges every single day and got to see them used for the same tasks over and over again. One hell of a sharpening lab if you asked me. :)
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I'm not suggesting he isn't knowledgable and experienced. I don't question that he's an outstanding sharpener. I'm only suggesting he might be misinterpreting his observations. I have sharpened knives commercially. I have sharpened the very same knives over and over commercially. However, I haven't changed the methodology or had any changes reported in their performance.

I don't claim to have the experience that many here have. I've read Juranich's book and the evidence of his experience seems "scientific" to me.
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Then use your stones dry. It isn't a problem for me.
 
stitchawl said:
While I enjoy reading the books, and have read Juranich's book, I prefer to do my own testing. In 1975 I bought Juarnich's 'RazorEdge' clamp and stones from him at a show in Houston. It was the first sharpening 'system' I ever used. Following instructions, I always used his stones dry and was very happy with the results.

The next year I picked up a Buck Sharpening Stone kit, and used oil to freehand sharpen with that. I was very happy with the results.

A few years later I bought the GATCO system and used those stones with oil. I was very happy with the results. In later years I went on to purchase almost every sharpening system on the market, eventually get an EdgePro. As you know, we use only water on the EdgePro, and I am very happy with the results.

Because of my results using the EdgePro stones with water, I bought some good Japanese waterstones and used them freehand with LOTS of water. I am very happy with the results.

When I use a DMT aligner clamp, I usually use it with wet/dry sandpaper. I use that dry. I am very happy with the results. When I use a Sharpmaker I use it dry. I am very happy with the results.

Obviously I get 'different' results with each sharpening system (the finest edge coming from the EdgePro used with water.)

Mostly... I prefer water as it's less messy to clean up. As for the actual edge results... they ALL work very well. We can get a tree-topping edge with water OR oil.

Stitchawl
Click to expand...

I agree completely that the results are what matters. Sharpening is a matter of achieving a certain geometry and finish. Whatever gets it done is dandy. All that matters is that it gets done.
 
Knife Outlet said:
I just have a problem accepting illogical premises without a suitable explanation. Feel free to accept it yourself. I don't mind.
[...]
Then use your stones dry. It isn't a problem for me.
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You crack me up man. :)

I'm not suggesting he isn't knowledgable and experienced. I don't question that he's an outstanding sharpener. I'm only suggesting he might be misinterpreting his observations.
Click to expand...

Just a quick point: Juranitch has been dead for a while now. Not that it's all that important to the discussion.

I have sharpened knives commercially. I have sharpened the very same knives over and over commercially. However, I haven't changed the methodology or had any changes reported in their performance.
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Fair enough. You've clearly sharpened a lot more than I have. ...and you're being totally civil and polite, which I respect and appreciate.

You're also being a *tiny* bit of a hard head by essentially saying, "I believe he's not lying about his experience, but I don't think he knows why it happened because *I* can't see the logic of it." You wanna know the worst part? You might be right! :) Or he might.

Either way I guess stichawl and you have both pointed out that wet and dry sharpening both work and you can probably both make any given edge sharper than I can, so why am I still typing here? :)

Brian.
 
i probably have thirty stones.
Diamond
Washita, all grades
Norton, India,Pikes,Washita
Carbo , several grits

many times i've rescued an old stone from a junk store gunked up with forty years of oil and crud by soaking the stone in a bath of soapy water and a little scrubbing
thereafter i almost always use water or simply use the stone dry.

i knew an expert sharpener who used mineral oil, if you want the fragrance use baby oil. same difference.

a pine lath will do for a strop, or old leather belt. if you have rouge,or compound , that's ok too.

no brainer.
how do you suppose [them] old timers kept a blade sharp????
buzz
 
So can anyone explain why people who hand sand knives recommend using oil (Cool Tool II) and say it speeds things up, but using oil on a stone slows things down?
 
I wonder if part of the confusion in regards to "oil" lies in the definition. What type of oil is being used? On my Arkansas stones, I use WD-40 and clean after every few strokes. I've cleaned them with a scotchpad and some hot, soapy water and used them dry. With WD-40 or without, I am able to get a knife incredibly sharp. I have no doubt that the study is telling us something, but I am wondering what that is. I can't help but wonder if the answer is in the oil.
 
Peanut butter. :thumbup:

Extra Chunky for convex edges...
Creamy Smooth for beveled edges...

(Do NOT add sliced bananas. Simply destroys an edge.)

Trust me... :D


Stitchawl
 
Sharpening is pretty much just another form of metal removal. Knife sharpening is the only one I can think of where some advise against using a lubricant/coolant. Even when you go slow, there is great heat where metal is being deformed and removed, so while I don't know how much difference it makes, it makes sense to me that from a cooling perspective, it can't hurt. I much prefer stones that like water or a water solution (w/windex or similar), though. :)
 
Back in the day, (1975) when I first saw Juranitch's RazorEdge system in use, (being demo'd by Juranitch himself as he flogged the product at a Nat.Camping Assoc. trade show in Texas,) he made the statement that he could sharpen any small knife to razor sharpness in under two minutes. Being a wise-ass 28 year old, I handed him my belt-buckle knife. This thing has a thick diamond-shapped double-edged blade and I figured it would stump him. He just clamped it into the jig and started rubbing as fast as his hands could go, talking all the while. I remember his using the word 'scrubbing' as the action of his hand against the dry stone. He really was moving as fast as someone shaking a medicine jar, scrubbing the knife against the stone. Thinking about it now, that must have produced a lot of heat...

BTW, he did get that sucker razor sharp in under two minutes, so I bought the system for myself, and used it for years. (Perfect for a sheepsfoot or warncliff blade shape!)

Stitchawl
 
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