Sheath Makers and Leatherworkers: How do you do your stitching?

[jmflem]

I am a beginning leatherworker and I was wondering how you guys do your stitching. As of now I have only made a total of three sheaths, so I have limited tools. I am planning on getting a groover and a stitching marker in the future. My problem with stitching is that the back side of my sheath usually has a pretty bad stitching job, while the front side is nice and consistent. I use a two-prong awl like this one:

Here's what the stitching looks like on the front of my most recent sheath:

Now here's the back:

How do you guys get the back to look nice and consistent? And if I were to get a stitching marker, what kind of awl would you recommend?

 

[Patrice Lemée]

You might want to ask the mods to move this to the Sheath and Such forum.

And get Custom Knife Sheaths With Chuck Burrows: http://www.wrtcleather.com/tr-books/books-1.shtml

It'll answer all your questions and is the best investment you can make. After that, Paul Long DVD's are also a must but he uses a machine to stitch so that's why I suggested Chuck's first.

 

[jim strong]

I handstitch all my leatherwork. I use an automatic thread feed-awl with nylon cord.
To make the stitches even, I pre-punch holes where I want the stitches to go. This is slow going, after I get all the holes punched I sew with the thread feed awl and then tighten all the stitches individually with an ice pick with a blunted end. I pull the cord back through the first/last holes and cut it leaving a
quarter inch end which I light with a lighter and pull back into it's respective hole.
Hope this helps.

 

[jmflem]

I handstitch all my leatherwork. I use an automatic thread feed-awl with nylon cord.
To make the stitches even, I pre-punch holes where I want the stitches to go. This is slow going, after I get all the holes punched I sew with the thread feed awl and then tighten all the stitches individually with an ice pick with a blunted end. I pull the cord back through the first/last holes and cut it leaving a
quarter inch end which I light with a lighter and pull back into it's respective hole.
Hope this helps.

I pre-punch my holes too, but my problem is keeping my awl perfectly straight up and down. When I'm off just a tiny bit it makes an inconsistent stitch on the other side. I'll punch the holes the the type of awl I showed above, then I'll handstitch the leather with two leather sewing needles. I'll the backstitch a few stitches, cut the thread, and the singe it with a lighter and press it down.

 

[Joe R.]

I'm just a beginner as well and found the videos by Nigel Armitage very educational.

He has about 20 youtube videos, and this one on the saddle stitch could be useful to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGuiha5S2oE

Is that first tool you show a pricking iron or some type of punch? If it is a pricking iron, I believe they are made to mark the leather and not punch through it.

 

[logem]

I'm somewhat of a traditionalist and follow the hand stitching method of Al and Ann Stohlman. The stitch path is grooved, then marked with a No. 5 overstitch wheel (5 stitches per inch). The bonded sheath is then clamped in a stitch pony. Each hole is stabbed with an awl with a hand sharpened diamond shaped blade. The hole is then stitched, and another hole is stabbed, and so on. Each hole stabbed and threaded one at a time.

The stabbing method takes practice, but I've gotten to where the holes on the back side of the workpiece are evenly spaced. I like stabbing the holes with an awl vs. drilling or punching them, because the displaced leather eventually closes back around the thread. This tends to hold the thread tightly and creates a more durable stitch in my opinion.

I highly recommend getting the book, "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather" by Al Stohlman.

Mike L.

 

[Brommeland]

I use a Campbell these days. However, when I was first getting started about 30 years ago, I had the same problem - beautiful hand stitching on the front - ugly on the back. I figured out a solution that I will share with y'all:

First, match your edges together and hold them firmly while you sand them smooth and even on a drum sander in a drill press.

Second, lay out your stitch line as usual (I prefer a creaser to a groover, btw. It makes for a much stronger stitch), and punch the holes with your two prong chisel.

Third, do EXACTLY the same thing to the back.

Fourth, when you glue the two pieces together, use a few harness needles as line-up pins. Count the holes so everything lines up, using a needle every five or so holes.

Then hand stitch as usual and the front and back will both be beautiful!

 

[jmflem]

I use a Campbell these days. However, when I was first getting started about 30 years ago, I had the same problem - beautiful hand stitching on the front - ugly on the back. I figured out a solution that I will share with y'all:

First, match your edges together and hold them firmly while you sand them smooth and even on a drum sander in a drill press.

Second, lay out your stitch line as usual (I prefer a creaser to a groover, btw. It makes for a much stronger stitch), and punch the holes with your two prong chisel.

Third, do EXACTLY the same thing to the back.

Fourth, when you glue the two pieces together, use a few harness needles as line-up pins. Count the holes so everything lines up, using a needle every five or so holes.

Then hand stitch as usual and the front and back will both be beautiful!

I think part of my problem was not sanding the edge flat enough. If I were to spend more time sanding and did what you said to do I think that might work. I really like the look that an overstitching wheel provides though. What are your thoughts on that and what kind of awl would I need for that? (I think the two-prong awl I have right now does about 4 stitches per inch, while the smallest overstitching wheel I can find is 5 per in. So I couldn't use the awl I have now.)

 

[jmflem]

I'm somewhat of a traditionalist and follow the hand stitching method of Al and Ann Stohlman. The stitch path is grooved, then marked with a No. 5 overstitch wheel (5 stitches per inch). The bonded sheath is then clamped in a stitch pony. Each hole is stabbed with an awl with a hand sharpened diamond shaped blade. The hole is then stitched, and another hole is stabbed, and so on. Each hole stabbed and threaded one at a time.

The stabbing method takes practice, but I've gotten to where the holes on the back side of the workpiece are evenly spaced. I like stabbing the holes with an awl vs. drilling or punching them, because the displaced leather eventually closes back around the thread. This tends to hold the thread tightly and creates a more durable stitch in my opinion.

I highly recommend getting the book, "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather" by Al Stohlman.

Mike L.

Is hand pressure enough to make the awl go through 3 layers of glued leather? (I usually use about 7-8 oz. leather, and I need to hit the awl I use with a mallet in order for it to make the holes.)

 

[Horsewright]

These days I'm a machine stitching kind of a guy with a Ferdco 440 Pro and Cobra class 18 flatbed machine. However in the past I've done more than a few miles of hand stitching. Both Brommeland and Logem have given you good advice. I fell more into the traditional awl camp as outlined by Logem. Either one will work very well for you, however the awl will provide more versatility so that you can adjust your stitch length to the project and with the chisel you cannot.

 

[jmflem]

I'm just a beginner as well and found the videos by Nigel Armitage very educational.

He has about 20 youtube videos, and this one on the saddle stitch could be useful to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGuiha5S2oE

Is that first tool you show a pricking iron or some type of punch? If it is a pricking iron, I believe they are made to mark the leather and not punch through it.

I did see that video before. It seems helpful but it looks even harder to keep a straight line on the backside. The "awl" I use is actually called a stitching chisel. It makes diamond shaped holes.

 

[jmflem]

These days I'm a machine stitching kind of a guy with a Ferdco 440 Pro and Cobra class 18 flatbed machine. However in the past I've done more than a few miles of hand stitching. Both Brommeland and Logem have given you good advice. I fell more into the traditional awl camp as outlined by Logem. Either one will work very well for you, however the awl will provide more versatility so that you can adjust your stitch length to the project and with the chisel you cannot.

Good point. I have found I will sometimes uneven spacing on my belt loop because my chisel does not allow the versatility of a standard awl. I may want to pick up a diamond awl and do some practice on some scrap pieces of leather. I do not have a stitching pony but I'm sure I could improvise with some wood and a C-clamp for now.

 

[Brommeland]

I think part of my problem was not sanding the edge flat enough. If I were to spend more time sanding and did what you said to do I think that might work. I really like the look that an overstitching wheel provides though. What are your thoughts on that and what kind of awl would I need for that? (I think the two-prong awl I have right now does about 4 stitches per inch, while the smallest overstitching wheel I can find is 5 per in. So I couldn't use the awl I have now.)

If you want a slotted hole, use a single prong chisel. If you want a round hole, I've actually used just a plain awl with decent results. I agree with the overstitch wheel, btw. Using one to mark your stitch holes and then also using it to go over the stitching makes a really nicely finished product if done correctly.

 

[logem]

Is hand pressure enough to make the awl go through 3 layers of glued leather? (I usually use about 7-8 oz. leather, and I need to hit the awl I use with a mallet in order for it to make the holes.)

Yes, the awl with a diamond ground blade almost glides through 3 layers of 9 ounce leather if sharpened properly. I've found (learned from this or another leather working forum) that stabbing the awl blade into beeswax helps to lubricate the blade and assists with with penetrating the layers of leather. None of this will work though if the awl blade is not properly sharpened. Typical blades from C.S. Osborne and other manufacturers are not truly sharp and their edges need to be refined by hand for acceptable performance in stabbing through layers of leather. You can locate custom ground awls for purchase with some keen internet searching but they are not inexpensive.

I still recommend the Art of Hand Sewing Leather by Al Stohlman. Even if you don't end up forming your stitch holes with a stabbing awl, there is a wealth of other information in the book, such as how to sharpen diamond awl blades, fixing broken theads while stitching, prepping the thread before threading the needle, etc.. It's well worth the cost.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

If you want to do it like me, you'll need that overstitcher and groover, a drill press and needles.

First I even up my edges so that the groover can follow an accurate line. Then use the #5 overstitcher wheel to mark my stitch holes. I use 00 needles for the saddle stitching, so I put a slightly larger needle (can't tell you which size since they aren't marked. They are a variety of doll making needles found at walmart) in the drill press. Once that's done I groove the backside. This is key to making the stitches look good on the back, at least imo.

Really, this should tell you most of what you need to know.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1139038

There's over 4 hours of video in that link, and I suggest watching all of them.

This is what the back of my first sheath looked like after grooving. It helps to make the back look as good as the front.

As for tools, I bought a cheap groove stitcher on Amazon. I think it was like $12-14 shipped. Works really well. Only thing I don't like about it is that it has a rather small blade. I think the brand is called "estone". The overstitcher wheel kit can be found at Hobby Lobby for $20 which is money well spent.

At the very least, if you don't buy the stitch groover, I would try casing the leather and using some like a wing divider (or compass) to groove a channel. I haven't tried that, but I would if I didn't have a proper groover.

 

[Brommeland]

One point to remember - 80-90% of the strength of a piece of cowhide is in the surface of the grain and the first 1/10 of an inch or so from the grain's surface. As the leather gets thicker, it becomes progressively weaker in relation to it's thickness. Grooving will substantially reduce the strength of the leather between the stitching holes.

The reason that Stohlman (who was a true master in all things leather) and the other old school saddlemakers did it was because they: A. Used linen thread (which was weak compared to modern synthetics & would often break if you pulled the stitches too tight) and B. The stitching was prone to abrasion from someone sitting on the saddle all day long, day after day rubbing against the stitches.

With modern synthetic threads, I get a much stronger stitch by casing the leather and using a creaser to set the stitch line. This compresses the grain of the leather rather than cutting thru it. This results in a stitch that is still below the surface of the leather without sacrificing the strength of the base material. The strength of a good synthetic thread easily allows you to pull those stitches tight and whatever small percentage of the thread that may still be above the surface is pretty inconsequential.

There's nothing wrong with grooving a low stress/high abrasion area of a given product. But if you want the strongest possible stitch - try casing and creasing instead. Good luck!

 

[jmflem]

If you want to do it like me, you'll need that overstitcher and groover, a drill press and needles.

First I even up my edges so that the groover can follow an accurate line. Then use the #5 overstitcher wheel to mark my stitch holes. I use 00 needles for the saddle stitching, so I put a slightly larger needle (can't tell you which size since they aren't marked. They are a variety of doll making needles found at walmart) in the drill press. Once that's done I groove the backside. This is key to making the stitches look good on the back, at least imo.

Really, this should tell you most of what you need to know.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1139038

There's over 4 hours of video in that link, and I suggest watching all of them.

This is what the back of my first sheath looked like after grooving. It helps to make the back look as good as the front.

As for tools, I bought a cheap groove stitcher on Amazon. I think it was like $12-14 shipped. Works really well. Only thing I don't like about it is that it has a rather small blade. I think the brand is called "estone". The overstitcher wheel kit can be found at Hobby Lobby for $20 which is money well spent.

At the very least, if you don't buy the stitch groover, I would try casing the leather and using some like a wing divider (or compass) to groove a channel. I haven't tried that, but I would if I didn't have a proper groover.

I usually dye the leather before I glue and stitch, because it seems to me it would be harder to get dye under the belt loop and that the inside of the sheath would have an obvious leather color if I dyed after stitching. Also, wouldn't the thread get dyed too? Am I doing it wrong, or is it just another way of doing it?

 

[SixStringSamurai]

When I make my sheaths, I'm not as concerned with methods/modes of construction as I am the final product and its longevity. Thus, I cheat as often as possible. I don't have a full leather shop, I make knives in my garage! But, there are a few things you really should have. A stitch marker, groover, and edge beveller are key, but so is my dremel drill press. I undersize the holes with tiny little drill bits, and I'm ready to stitch in 5 minutes.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

I usually dye the leather before I glue and stitch, because it seems to me it would be harder to get dye under the belt loop and that the inside of the sheath would have an obvious leather color if I dyed after stitching. Also, wouldn't the thread get dyed too? Am I doing it wrong, or is it just another way of doing it?

No you're right, I stitch and glue after dyeing too. Sorry if mislead anyone.

Also, I meant to preface the above post by saying that I'm totally new at this. I only do things the way I do because I've had a great deal of help from everyone here on the boards.

About the strength... I've read that too, the majority of the strength is in the top part of full grain leather. I can't imagine the leather failing on a quality piece of 8/9oz, but I'm sure it's possible. The only area on the (whopping two) sheaths that I've made that seem to get any stress are the loops. On the fold over loops, the only area that gets grooved is the flesh side on the inside of the sheath. The skin sides that face each other are fully intact. I only groove the inside so that the stitches are below the surface to keep the knife tip, or scales, from cutting, or rubbing them.

 

[SixStringSamurai]

I've heard it said a few times that rivets are best for the belt loops. They're easier to repair, and they can't be cut.

I always use 8-9 oz for the main sheath body, but try to size the cam-spacer piece to the knife going into the sheath. I've heard it said that using the groover weakens the leather, but seriously? Never had an issue. I beat the p*ss out of my personal utility blade and sheath, really just so I will know for myself what my products will take before failing. 3 years going on some hard use, and really, not one stitch busted, rivet popped, or leather tear. Scuffs, dents, dings, and scrapes, yes. Nothing more than cosmetic though.

My process has really come through trial and errors. Lots of errors. Really the phrase should be Errors and trial.

I cut out an oversize piece, wet form it to the knife, dye it, cut to within 1/16th of final shape, plot out and cut an oversized spacer with a loveless inspired cam area for the guard and glue it down to one side. Once that dries, i rivet down the belt loop, then I glue the other side and let it dry, cut and sand to final shape, groove the stitch line, mark stitches at 1/8 inch apart, dremel the holes (I think the hole is 1/32"- just enough to make stitching fairly easy, but it still needs to stretch a tad to push the needle through) stitch it, then wet the stitches so the leather swells. Then I pop a rivet on the mouth side and tie off the stitches underneath it before jb welding the rivet. Coat the edges in 3 coats of EdgeCote. Then i heat up a mix of 2/3 neatsfoot oil and 1/3 classic wax and dip the sheath into it. Let it dry, and buff it.

Viola. Finished sheath.