Sheath Makers and Leatherworkers: How do you do your stitching?

Good thread! :) There are a lot more sheath makers on BF than I ever imagined.

As far as grooving, I do groove both sides of my stitching, tried it without and didnt like the look at all. The only time I've had issues is on very light leather, up to 5 ounce, the heavier the leather I use the more I can bear down on the stitching.

No rivets on the inside on my work if at all possible, I've gotten knives in for fitting where the old sheath had a riveted loop, it almost always marks either the blade or the handle. In a lot of these cases, the rivet was covered with a little patch of leather that nearly always comes off through abrasion. Lining of some sort is much preferable, but not always feasible, easier to simply stitch it on.

More often than not I drill stitching holes, I am a full time maker so its a great time saver.

On the pouch sheath above, its not level so you need to back up the welt area or hang the bent part of the sheath off your backing material. You want the edge of your sheath to be as flat as possible, 90 degrees on the awl as well. Sit that pouch sheath on a table and look at it straight on from the side and see how off you are from 90 degrees on the edge. Same goes for sanding the edges, pouches can be a pain to sand square, especially on a powered sander.

Hope this helps a little jmflem.
 
leatherman said:
Good thread! :) There are a lot more sheath makers on BF than I ever imagined.

As far as grooving, I do groove both sides of my stitching, tried it without and didnt like the look at all. The only time I've had issues is on very light leather, up to 5 ounce, the heavier the leather I use the more I can bear down on the stitching.

No rivets on the inside on my work if at all possible, I've gotten knives in for fitting where the old sheath had a riveted loop, it almost always marks either the blade or the handle. In a lot of these cases, the rivet was covered with a little patch of leather that nearly always comes off through abrasion. Lining of some sort is much preferable, but not always feasible, easier to simply stitch it on.

More often than not I drill stitching holes, I am a full time maker so its a great time saver.

On the pouch sheath above, its not level so you need to back up the welt area or hang the bent part of the sheath off your backing material. You want the edge of your sheath to be as flat as possible, 90 degrees on the awl as well. Sit that pouch sheath on a table and look at it straight on from the side and see how off you are from 90 degrees on the edge. Same goes for sanding the edges, pouches can be a pain to sand square, especially on a powered sander.

Hope this helps a little jmflem.
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Well I can't do that to that sheath since I sold it to a friend :highly_amused:. But I'll definitely do that on my next sheath. Thanks!
 
Strigamort said:
No you're right, I stitch and glue after dyeing too. Sorry if mislead anyone.

Also, I meant to preface the above post by saying that I'm totally new at this. I only do things the way I do because I've had a great deal of help from everyone here on the boards.

About the strength... I've read that too, the majority of the strength is in the top part of full grain leather. I can't imagine the leather failing on a quality piece of 8/9oz, but I'm sure it's possible. The only area on the (whopping two) sheaths that I've made that seem to get any stress are the loops. On the fold over loops, the only area that gets grooved is the flesh side on the inside of the sheath. The skin sides that face each other are fully intact. I only groove the inside so that the stitches are below the surface to keep the knife tip, or scales, from cutting, or rubbing them.
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Well that's a fine sheath for not having much experience!
 
SixStringSamurai said:
I've heard it said a few times that rivets are best for the belt loops. They're easier to repair, and they can't be cut.

I always use 8-9 oz for the main sheath body, but try to size the cam-spacer piece to the knife going into the sheath. I've heard it said that using the groover weakens the leather, but seriously? Never had an issue. I beat the p*ss out of my personal utility blade and sheath, really just so I will know for myself what my products will take before failing. 3 years going on some hard use, and really, not one stitch busted, rivet popped, or leather tear. Scuffs, dents, dings, and scrapes, yes. Nothing more than cosmetic though.

My process has really come through trial and errors. Lots of errors. Really the phrase should be Errors and trial.

I cut out an oversize piece, wet form it to the knife, dye it, cut to within 1/16th of final shape, plot out and cut an oversized spacer with a loveless inspired cam area for the guard and glue it down to one side. Once that dries, i rivet down the belt loop, then I glue the other side and let it dry, cut and sand to final shape, groove the stitch line, mark stitches at 1/8 inch apart, dremel the holes (I think the hole is 1/32"- just enough to make stitching fairly easy, but it still needs to stretch a tad to push the needle through) stitch it, then wet the stitches so the leather swells. Then I pop a rivet on the mouth side and tie off the stitches underneath it before jb welding the rivet. Coat the edges in 3 coats of EdgeCote. Then i heat up a mix of 2/3 neatsfoot oil and 1/3 classic wax and dip the sheath into it. Let it dry, and buff it.

Viola. Finished sheath.
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I've never tried rivets but it seems to me that the exposed metal on the inside of the sheath would scratch the knife. Do you have this problem?
 
Brommeland said:
One point to remember - 80-90% of the strength of a piece of cowhide is in the surface of the grain and the first 1/10 of an inch or so from the grain's surface. As the leather gets thicker, it becomes progressively weaker in relation to it's thickness. Grooving will substantially reduce the strength of the leather between the stitching holes.

The reason that Stohlman (who was a true master in all things leather) and the other old school saddlemakers did it was because they: A. Used linen thread (which was weak compared to modern synthetics & would often break if you pulled the stitches too tight) and B. The stitching was prone to abrasion from someone sitting on the saddle all day long, day after day rubbing against the stitches.

With modern synthetic threads, I get a much stronger stitch by casing the leather and using a creaser to set the stitch line. This compresses the grain of the leather rather than cutting thru it. This results in a stitch that is still below the surface of the leather without sacrificing the strength of the base material. The strength of a good synthetic thread easily allows you to pull those stitches tight and whatever small percentage of the thread that may still be above the surface is pretty inconsequential.

There's nothing wrong with grooving a low stress/high abrasion area of a given product. But if you want the strongest possible stitch - try casing and creasing instead. Good luck!
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That's interesting information .
Can I ask if the " old timer leather workers " glued their joins and if they did was the adhesive as good as today's ?
I feel with my sheaths , on which all joins are glued , that the stitching is part two of the joining process .
The glued joints that I achieve can't be separated without major effort and destruction of the sheath . The stitching is a secondary backup ( a very important backup ) . I have no concerns about the groove line weakening the leather because I believe the combination of glue ( which adheres over a greater surface are , not just a thin line ) and the thread provide all the strength needed . If you subject my sheaths to the force required to separate the joins , then a stitch groove isn't going to make much difference .
I'm not saying your way is wrong , far from it , your way is the strongest possible stitching option , but I wonder if modern glues have changed the game some what ?


Ken
 
Modern contact adhesives are vastly superior to the "hide glue" that the old time saddle makers used.

It is true that most of the strength of a piece of leather is concentrated in or near the top grain layer or epidermis, however the loss of strength by grooving would be miniscule. The perforation of the adjacent stitches would likely cause more concern. (the postage stamp effect.) The real concern would be if you made something from a "split" which is that left over when a 10/12 is taken down to say 7/8. This left over "split" does not have nearly the strength of the top grain piece from which it was split, yet it can be used and will give a very reasonable service life depending on what is made from it.

Using the modern contact adhesives properly does make the stitching much more like a seat belt. It is a safety measure, and it looks good.

Paul
 
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sheathmaker said:
Modern contact adhesives are vastly superior to the "hide glue" that the old time saddle makers used.

It is true that most of the strength of a piece of leather is concentrated in or near the top the top grain layer or epidermis, however the loss of strength by grooving would be miniscule. The perforation of the adjacent stitches would likely cause more concern. (the postage stamp effect.) The real concern would be if you made something from a "split" which is that left over when a 10/12 is taken down to say 7/8. This left over "split" does not have nearly the strength of the top grain piece from which it was split, yet it can be used and will give a very reasonable service life depending on what is made from it.

Using the modern contact adhesives properly does make the stitching much more like a seat belt. It is a safety measure, and it looks good.

Paul
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Thanks for that Paul , it kind of confirms what I thought .
You bring up a good point about the stitch perforations being the weak link .
Without diverting this thread to far , can I ask everyone's opinions on the way they stitch down their belt loops .
I use a U shaped pattern , with no top to it . I was lead to believe the top straight line of stitching on many sheaths is the weak link .
I hope I have explained that well enough for everyone to understand .
What are people's thoughts on this matter .


Ken
 
I'm making a sheath and it's my first time working with leather and was wondering if when all my sheath layers are glued together to finish up the edge can I cut it out with a bandsaw? I made the outside of my pieces slightly oversized and all the layers its about an inch thick.

Do you groove the back side after making your holes? I'm worried if I groove it first and then make the holes some may not line up with the groove.

And I plan on drilling my holes. Is a 1/16" drill bit too big? If so I'll use a needle in my drill press and try punching all the holes.

Thanks for any information.
 
Hey ausher, good questions, and I bet lots of answers.

I do drill most all my sheaths so yea, your in the right direction on bit size, I tend toward 5/64ths for my stitching as I use a rather thick thread and a 1/16ths hole makes it difficult to stitch. I want to be able to hand stitch as long as I am able, my family has a history of arthritis of the worst kind so my days are numbered. Occasionally I'll got as far as a 3/32 bit if its particularly stiff, like a kydex lined sheath. Backstitch on kydex lined leather and you appreciate the bigger hole, :p

I groove the back of the sheath after drilling, you never know when a bit will wander a little during drilling, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. SOmetimes you can "fix" an off center hole with your awl, it works if you dont drill fully and simply make a divot on the back of the sheath.

YMMV, my process does not work for everyone, and that's ok, work and experiment for yourself and do what you feel most comfortable with. No one is always right, and no one is always wrong, its just done differently. Through my years of making sheaths I dont think I have ever seen two craftsmen do the same exact leather work. Even copycat makers cant replicate their targets sheaths. :)
 
Oh yeah, I groove after drilling, not before (on the backside). You can fudge a screwy hole into line if you groove after.

Just chuck up a needle slightly larger than your harness needles and rock on. I use a pair of needle nose pliers to pull the second needle through. Tape over the serrations and pull straight on the needle and you'll be fine. I haven't had a cheap Tandy needle break yet.

I won't use rivets personally. I really don't care for the way they look and I've had them fail on other projects, although my expectations for my own work have gone way up so maybe it was a problem with the way I use to do them. Who knows.

I've tested both Barge and Weldwood contact cements for strength. Both products formed a bond that made the leather fail first when forcing the layers apart. Of the two I've decided to use Weldwood from now on. It doesn't seem to require clamping like the Barge does. I'll still use the Barge until it's gone, but won't buy it again. The WW is really cheap too.

As for using needles as guides when gluing...

774ZzQD.jpg


;)
 
@ strigamort
I groove both sides before drooling and muscle my dremel drill press straight, but yeah, sometimes its best to groove one side, drill, then groove and straighten. Its all about how well you know your tools, right?
 
SixStringSamurai said:
@ strigamort
I groove both sides before drooling and muscle my dremel drill press straight, but yeah, sometimes its best to groove one side, drill, then groove and straighten. Its all about how well you know your tools, right?
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Probably. My press is a simple table top model. I haven't measured for run-out, but it seems to run that small needle fairly true. I keep the rest just low enough to allow the full thickness of the leather, but only just. Actually, I had to touch up my last sheath because I had run the needle over the leather in a couple of places by accident. A result of having the table a tiny bit too high.

The main benefit of keeping the table high is the short pull to bring the chuck down to the proper depth. I'm already juggling doing that, while also attempting to keep it all even.

I'm not sure how the Dremel drill press works, but I have seen it mentioned more in my short time reading about leather craft than anywhere else, so it sounds like an excellent tool for the job.

It's getting late, and I'm not at my sharpest, but now that I'm thinking about all of this I'm wondering, is there a good reason for not gluing up the welt and both (all) layers, then drilling? I can't really think of why I hadn't been doing it that way, and it seems like it would eliminate some of the mentioned juggling.

Hmm...

I don't hold the use of rivets against anyone btw. From an aesthetic standpoint it's not what I choose to do on my own work. I can clearly see that the rivets in the factory leather sheath that came with my SOG multi tool are not rubbing against the tool. They appear to be under flush. I HAVE had them fail on two other similar sheaths, but again, those are not hand crafted items. With my own failures, I think it's worth mentioning that I have only used them infrequently. Not only that, I'm not certain (it's been a number of years) that they were set correctly, or even that they were the proper hardware for the application.

My only resistance to trying them again is solely down to personal preference. It could be argued that either method produces ideal circumstances for potential failure, but if done properly, I see no reason to dismiss either as a viable method for fastening.
 
Definitely glue the welt before drilling. I put the rivets in before both sides are glued b/c the sheath needs to be open to really hammer down on them. Then the sheath is glued, closed and clamped for 24. The dremel drill press is $40 of awesome, mainly because its just the right size, and you have control over the speeds so you can avoid the awful burnt fingernail smell when the leather cooks. The most important part of using the dremel press is having a spare piece of leather that you place under the sheath that keeps the holes straight. Because the sheath is essentially premolded, the spacer needs to allow the widest/thickest part of the sheath to clear the table, so you can hold the stitching area flat to the table, if that makes sense.
Using this whole process, I was able to fill an order for three sheaths for some "custom" filet knives a buddy had. Someone bought the blades and cutler riveted some horribly finished dymondwood handles on them. They ranged from 4"-16" blade lengths. The sheaths took 1 week to finish (mostly drying time) and are worth far more than the knives themselves. Even though he specified that he wanted belt loops, he told me after pickup that they would never see a belt, but would be thrown in a toolbox. Naturally I grimaced menacingly, but its the way I used the rivets that will keep the blades in the sheaths even when bouncing around in a toolbox.
On these, the rivets (ss Tandy quick rivets- jb welded) served to secure the belt loops, but each sheath also had a rivet at the mouth and at the guard area, to cinch the sheath and allow the guard cam to make an audible 'click' when the knife was withdrawn or replaced.
I have a sog powerlock that has a nylon sheath with a couple rivets in it. Its been carried everyday for five or so years and although the stitching is fraying, the rivets are still perfect.
When using an 'automatic' stitching awl, the rivets give you a spot to tie off and really lock the thread in place. And when welded, they are NOT coming off.
 
My local Tandy Leather shop was having a big sale today and I was able to buy the tools I wanted. Thanks everyone for your help.
 
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SixStringSamurai, yeah my most recent Powerlock came with a nylon sheath as well. I've bought 7 of them over the years, and this was the first that didn't come with leather. The nylon sheath was not stitched on one side so SOG asked which I'd like them to replace it with. Good cs. The rivets lasted a number of years of edc, but eventually failed. I wouldn't be surprised if stitching would have done the same after the kind of abuse I put them through. Something about a seriously corrosive work environment doesn't agree with longevity of any kind I guess (including the human body!). ;)

The Dremel press sounds great. I put the flex shaft on my Dremel years ago and lost the rest. They probably sell it separately, but honestly, my regular press works really well. Thanks for confirming my error in not gluing before drilling. For the life of me, I can't figure out why I didn't just glue it first. Should make it much easier next time.

Op- glad to hear you got some goodies! Half the fun is acquiring new tools, that goes for any hobby. I used to be so bored walking around hardware stores with my pop when I was a kid. Now I can see why he enjoyed it so much.

What did ya get?
 
Speaking of that sale, my local Leather Factory is having a parking lot swap meet as well. Hopefully something special follows me home! :)
 
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