Sheffield History and my first Taylor's Eye Witness - and now, second

- brilliant, Jack.........very many thanks for your time and that response.

Do you know anything about the export of knife-making know-how by firms like Joseph Rodgers and George Wostenholm to the 'States.......and why they seem to have taken on and furthered the industry so well..? Am presuming they invested more and had a stronger demand and marketplace.

I also find it difficult to comprehend why, when the likes of Russel produced a fine penknife and it got snapped up at whatever cost almost, that no-one/no firm tried to capitalise on it.

Perhaps times have changed now.........perhaps the UK demand is still very low, though you'd not think it when you see SAK sales in UK. Cannot help but wonder if a Sheffield firm had taken to producing extremely decent finished penknives at around £150 a pop, that they wouldn't be sought after the world over.

I have some excerpts somewhere about some history of Wostenholm and the decline of the Sheffield cutlery market..........I'll find them one day.
 
The US represented the biggest export market by far for Sheffield cutlers, far more knives were sold to America than were sold in Britain, or indeed the rest of the world. The introduction of punitive US import tariffs changed that, and led to even harder times for the Sheffield cutlers. Many Sheffield cutlers chose to make a better life for themselves in America, and the Sheffield unions even gave out grants to encourage this (since it left less cutlers competing for work in Sheffield, or going 'on the box' when unemployed). Many of the US cutlery companies were founded by Sheffield cutlers, including Northfield, and the early part of the GEC book, which covers this, makes for fascinating reading.
 
:thumbup: :( Really interesting Jack, what you say for Sheffield workers can be applied to Thiers... Most of them had two jobs, cutler and peasant.
 
Jolipapa said:
:thumbup: :( Really interesting Jack, what you say for Sheffield workers can be applied to Thiers... Most of them had two jobs, cutler and peasant.
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Thanks JP, yes indeed :thumbup: I would love to know more about the history of the French cutlery industry. It seems that at one time, the French cutlers were foremost in the world in terms of innovation and design. I guess the many wars brought a blight to all :(

In my readings about the history of the Sheffield cutlery industry, I read that there was an influx of Dutch Huguenots, who had fled their homeland escaping persecution, and with them they brought a good deal of cutlery knowledge, which increased standards in the town. Who, today, thinks of Holland, as a cutlery nation?
 
Jack Black said:
Thanks JP, yes indeed :thumbup: I would love to know more about the history of the French cutlery industry. It seems that at one time, the French cutlers were foremost in the world in terms of innovation and design. I guess the many wars brought a blight to all :(

In my readings about the history of the Sheffield cutlery industry, I read that there was an influx of Dutch Huguenots, who had fled their homeland escaping persecution, and with them they brought a good deal of cutlery knowledge, which increased standards in the town. Who, today, thinks of Holland, as a cutlery nation?
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Here a link for the brave (no English translation...) http://www.lecouteau.info/un-peu-d-histoire/histoire-de-la-coutellerie/
 
Chui-888 said:
What baffles me though, is the apparent 'that'll do' mentality with recent and present makers. Like I said before, commissioned a pair of pocket knives last year and the flaws in one and not the other, and, vice versa, were quite shocking.
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Jack Black said:
I once told a couple of Sheffield cutlers that I would treble their usual rates if they would make knives to my standard, and the first thing they did was machine-ground the points of the 'handmade' knives, completely ruining them in the process.
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Just to add a little more, I eventually found that the only way I could get the knives made right was to scrutinise every stage of the manufacturing process, contract out the heat treatment, which they simply couldn't do, and get leather sheaths made elsewhere. Even then, they - hard to think of a polite word, but you get the picture - me in the end, and themselves really, though they didn't seem to care about that. The whole thing cost me a fortune, and I'm still waiting for some of the knives I paid for 20-odd years ago. So, despite what it may seem, I certainly have no romantic illusions about Sheffield cutlers! :rolleyes:
 
Am I mis-remembering my Levine, or was Sheffield too slow to mechanize, when American and German cutlery companies did? I seem to remember something about even Green River Works in the old days cranking out good knives faster and cheaper because they were mass-producing.
 
Jack Black said:
Just to add a little more, I eventually found that the only way I could get the knives made right was to scrutinise every stage of the manufacturing process, contract out the heat treatment, which they simply couldn't do, and get leather sheaths made elsewhere. Even then, they - hard to think of a polite word, but you get the picture - me in the end, and themselves really, though they didn't seem to care about that. The whole thing cost me a fortune, and I'm still waiting for some of the knives I paid for 20-odd years ago. So, despite what it may seem, I certainly have no romantic illusions about Sheffield cutlers! :rolleyes:
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- if you had to contract out the ht, does that mean they'd not done before at all, or just not done it properly....?! So they were selling knives before that were simply shaped and sharpened bits o' steel :eek:
 
The big cutlery gaffers didn't like putting ANYTHING back into the business, they were far too busy building vast mansions and counting their money. In terms of mechanisation though, there was a limit to what COULD be mechanised. If Sheffield had mechanised early on, and adopted a proper factory system, it would not have produced great knives. Those companies which did mechanise still went to the wall.
 
Chui-888 said:
- if you had to contract out the ht, does that mean they'd not done before at all, or just not done it properly....?! So they were selling knives before that were simply shaped and sharpened bits o' steel :eek:
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Yes, they hadn't a clue about HT, nor did they care. The first batch of knives I got from them were between 51 and 53 Rockwell, and I saw them send out at least one knife which had not been heat-treated at all. When I was in Sheffield a few months ago, I saw a grinder working on some swords for Wilkinson, which had already been heat-treated. I'd spoken to him about a year before about this, and he told me that since he was using water-power, the blades didn't get hot. Absolute rubbish, the swords were glowing red when I watched him grinding!
 
- oh dear, that's not good

One story I'd heard re Wilkinson - tips, expertise and know-how was never shown, offered or demonstrated to the young apprentices......they had to learn it for themselves - or leave...
 
Jack that was great reading, THANK YOU for taking what must have been a long long time to educate us - just fantastic.
 
Chui-888 said:
One story I'd heard re Wilkinson - tips, expertise and know-how was never shown, offered or demonstrated to the young apprentices......they had to learn it for themselves - or leave...
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Some manufacturers deliberately restricted them to one process so that they never learned the job properly, and potentially, sought employment elsewhere.

Campbellclanman said:
Jack that was great reading, THANK YOU for taking what must have been a long long time to educate us - just fantastic.
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Thanks for the kind words my friend :) :thumbup:
 
Chui-888 said:
We're lucky to have production makers in the 'States to produce traditional patterns as they do!
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Sadly, despite early mechanisation, a vastly larger home user base, fewer anti-knife laws, a better appreciation of pocket cutlery, and the absence of a long period of post-WW2 austerity, the large part of the US cutlery industry went to the wall as well :(

I've always said that if the Sheffield cutlers had competed with their far-East competition on quality, rather than price, there might still be a Sheffield cutlery industry, because there are always people willing to pay for quality. Perhaps if they'd modernised, educated themselves, and marketed their wares better maybe they would have stood a chance. Then again, maybe that was just wishful thinking. Small companies like GEC are able to sell everything they produce, but I doubt they'd be able to that without the advantage of the internet.
 
This has been a great thread to read. Thanks to all of the contributors, especially Jack who seems to have endless knowledge on all things Sheffield.
 
- top man, Jack...........some great pieces of historical info, thank you very much - hope others have enjoyed learning as much as I :thumbup: :)
 
Thanks gents, I think I might just link to your thread next time Chui! ;) :D :thumbup:
 
JB -I don't like raking over the coals but a few years ago I did a bit of snooping into your knives and the dealings you had with whatisname? can't remember -and it was heavy going for you and very disappointing.
People keep telling me I have to "let it go" (my miserable exit from the fire brigade after 30 years) but that's easier said than done.:).
 
meako said:
JB -I don't like raking over the coals but a few years ago I did a bit of snooping into your knives and the dealings you had with whatisname? can't remember -and it was heavy going for you and very disappointing.
People keep telling me I have to "let it go" (my miserable exit from the fire brigade after 30 years) but that's easier said than done.:).
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The whole thing was horrendous Meako, I try very hard not to think of it :mad: That was 20 years ago of course, but I've heard a lot of bad stories since. Amazing what you can get away with by just brazenly ripping people off. I think ScruffUK had some ill dealings with that source a few years ago. A real shame :(
 
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