Should a maker be selling knives while a customer has already paid and is waiting?

Redsnake1997

Redsnake1997

Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
2,515
Please move this if there is a more appropriate forum please.

I’m not going to mention any names but wanted to get opinions from collectors and makers alike. I’ve been waiting on a knife (2 actually) from a maker here on BF for going on 9 months now. In that time I have been in good communication w/the maker and have been told on numerous times that (to paraphrase) “Your knife should be done this weekend and I’ll have it out to you on Sunday…” and then nothing. Followed up by emails and calls and more discussions on how my knives are coming along and then nothing yet again. This process has happened several times over the past 7 or 8 months. What makes it even more difficult is that in that time while I’ve been waiting on my knives to be completed I’ve seen about 8 – 10 knives from this maker be put up for sale on our forums. I’ve PM’d or replied in these FS posts that “I’ll take it” as I would take what’s being offered for sale just to get one of these in place of the one being made for me. This never seems to work out for me.

A little background on this process... This maker was making me a custom Bowie that turned out not to be to my liking. I was told if there was anything wrong w/the knife he’d do his best to make it right or make another one for me… the Bowie was sent back for some modifications but after a few calls we decided to go another route and have a different knife made all-together. I was told it would take only a couple weeks and the new Cleaver would be in my hands. That has been over 2 months ago. I have not seen any pics (as I have been told on multiple occasions) nor heard anything in about 2 weeks.

As much as I like this person as an individual, I’m having a really hard time thinking I will spend any more of my $$ or give references for others to spend their money on future knifes.

Has anyone else dealt w/this type of issue? How did it turn out and what did you do?

As a knife maker, what is your take? I know life happens and things can delay delivery… but I don’t think this is the case since I’ve seen several other newly made knives hit the FS forums here.

Thanks.
 
It has been my experience that there are at least three sides to every story. That would be your side, the other side, and then somewhere in the middle lies the truth which accounts for all the detail you left out and the other side left out.

Your initial post only gives one leg of this three legged stool. I would not venture an opinion in your particular case without the missing pieces. I can only tell you what my approach would have been based on the limited history I have of mistakes and/or unsatisfied customers. First a full and prompt, no questions asked refund is offered, If the client wants to waive the refund offer in favor of a rebuild, then that rebuild takes precedence over anything going on in my shop until it is complete and shipped back to the customer. I have, in the course of the five or so years I've been doing this, had a customer or two that seemed impossible to please because they want something that is technically not feasible or aesthetically nauseating.

A refund is really very rare for me because I never accept any money up front and my customers always have the finished product in hand BEFORE they pay.

Paul
 
Paul...

Thanks for your input... I really appreciate it f/a quality maker here.

I also understand how there are different sides to each story. Hard to type out all the details but I tried to give an honest take from my side.

I don't think I'm too difficult to please when it comes to knives (or other items) and I appreciate honesty. If someone tells me my knife (or sheath) will be done and shipped out on a certain day, then I expect they will do their best to meet that time or let me know. What I don't like so much is being told many times over my knife is almost done and should be out in a day or two... and then be a few weeks and then months and still nothing to me. All the while I see new pieces being offered for sale to others.
 
Custom orders take time. There could be waits on materials or you could just need to do other stuff in the mean time.

Paying upfront doesn't put you at the head of the line or guarantee that you're going to get the spotlight next.
 
sheathmaker said:
...
A refund is really very rare for me because I never accept any money up front and my customers always have the finished product in hand BEFORE they pay.

Paul
Click to expand...

Paul, I wish people did their dealing like that more often. This is instant respect and honor. I know of only one other person who does this and let me say I respect this man more than any other person on this earth.
 
Redsnake1997 said:
Has anyone else dealt w/this type of issue? How did it turn out and what did you do?

As a knife maker, what is your take? I know life happens and things can delay delivery… but I don’t think this is the case since I’ve seen several other newly made knives hit the FS forums here.

Thanks.
Click to expand...


Like you said in your last paragraph, life happens. Lot's of things can delay work. I try to compensate for delays when I give delivery estimates. I'm also somewhat vague. ;) Unfortunately, I'm running behind anyway.... Now, if the guy keeps saying it'll be ready soon, and not coming through, then he's just either irresponsible or playing games with you. You should cancel your order and buy from me instead. :D Just kidding...

Thankfully, I've only had 3 knives sent back to me for more work. One was a bowie that the customer left in a damp sheath and got all rusty, one I had ground too thin, and one the customer wanted some square edges on the guard broken down. They all got first priority, and I think this is the way it should be.

About seeing knives for sale here on BF. I remember reading about how Bill Moran always had 3 knives in process. One for orders, one for shows, and one for his wife. (Or something like that) I usually try to have some knives going that aren't for orders. Partly so I can try out new materials or techniques, partly because I sometimes need a break from custom orders, and partly to keep people here from forgetting about me. :) But again, I try to compensate for that when I quote delivery dates.
So don't be too upset if you see your maker selling knives before your's is done. But again, if he's made promises, he should deliver.

Hope my ramblings make some sense. It's hot and humid here. :D
 
sheathmaker said:
It has been my experience that there are at least three sides to every story:

That would be your side, the other side, and then somewhere in the middle lies the truth which accounts for all the details you left out and the other side left out.l
Click to expand...
^^^ Man, that's a keeper. :thumbup:

That said, I certainly understand the frustration. Human nature at its worst will take the path of least resistance. In this case, your knives, for whatever reason, are a stumbling block to this maker, and other projects easier to produce. Maybe it's because of the perceived finicky demands, I dunno.

The part that simply overrides ANY calls of 'life gets in the way' is the broken verbal and written promises which are fundamental and intrinsic to WHY we purchase a Custom Knife. (If these promises were true, of course.) ;)

Custom orders are a slippery slope for both sides. I hope this works out. Staying posted for the second leg of this rocky stool.

Coop
 
I guess the good news is that so, so many more custom knife order transactions go great as opposed to the ones such as this.
 
Redsnake, by your description, this sounds like weak sauce to me.

I'd be pissed, personally, if someone were to lie repeatedly to me like you described. Lying is a big red flag of disrespect, and if said maker has enough disdain for you to lie to you about your business transaction repeatedly, then I feel you owe it to yourself to find another maker who will treat you with more respect.

There is no good reason that this maker shouldn't be straight up and tell you, 'hey Redsnake, I'm sorry but life is getting in the way of my business and I will not be able to complete your order in less than a year, so I have another knife that I think you'll like which I will send to you, or here is your money back' then that would be different.

Now, with all that being said, a fellow named Anthony once stated; "There is no such thing as a knife emergency", and unless I have one stuck in my eye, (no, that hasn't happened and no it doesn't explain the brain damage) then that's the philosophy I try to employ whilst awaiting a custom made knife.:)
 
Lorien said:
Now, with all that being said, a fellow named Anthony once stated; "There is no such thing as a knife emergency", and unless I have one stuck in my eye, (no, that hasn't happened and no it doesn't explain the brain damage) then that's the philosophy I try to employ whilst awaiting a custom made knife.:)
Click to expand...

Anthony probably was not talking about a PRE-PAID knife, but I don't want to put words in his mouth. When someone is "holding" my money, and the transaction is not complete(they owe me a knife)....that's about as close to a "knife emergency" as it gets....:grumpy:

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
true enough STeven
 
My experience with this is very limited, but it does seem to be common in these types of threads that paying up front for a knife that isn't even started yet is widely accepted as a bad move. I think I read one maker said something like, "The hardest knife to make is the one that's already paid for."

From your post it seems like you're the victim - but it also seems like there are some important details missing. I hope it all works out for both you and the maker in the long run.

Austin
 
Redsnake1997 said:
What I don't like so much is being told many times over my knife is almost done and should be out in a day or two... and then be a few weeks and then months and still nothing to me. All the while I see new pieces being offered for sale to others.
Click to expand...

Redsnake, we are in complete agreement on this part for sure.

Paul
 
Redsnake,

Not too hard to figure out who you're talking about from reading your posts.
Have you considered leaving a reasonable message in their Visitors Messages,
it's like a billboard around here or alerting them to this thread ?
That's what I'd do.
Would be good to hear this person's side.

Doug
 
Hey all... I very much appreciate the input and opinions expressed here.

I did not start this thread to try and belittle or hurt the bladesmith and hope that was not the way I came across. I was really trying to get the opinions of others here and what you would do (makers and buyers alike) if you were in my position.

I have no doubt I'll get the knife(s) in question in due time. I also know that as humans our lives get busy... sometimes more busy than others. I have heard f/the maker and this will get worked out I'm most certain. He is aware of this thread and I'm certainly fine w/him posting here as well.

As far as me paying for a knife before it was complete, well... in this case I actually traded a watch and a knife f/another maker for the knife he was to make me. Therefore a refund is not really what I'd prefer at this time. I am NOT in a huge hurry to get this and know that it takes time to get a custom knife made. I would say that seeing another knife go up for sale earlier today and me not yet getting my knife pushed a strong button and I wanted to see what others would do being put in my position. I had even seen this knife after it was forged (knife listed and sold today... maker had emailed me pics and we exchanged dialogue) and before it was finished.

I will follow-up w/pics and/or information as this one goes forward.

Thanks for keeping this one civil and not intraweb fighting. :D
 
Redsnake1997 said:
As far as me paying for a knife before it was complete, well... in this case I actually traded a watch and a knife f/another maker for the knife he was to make me.
Click to expand...

although payin is payin, I wish you'd have mentioned this earlier. It doesn't really change anything, but it does add another element to this tale which also should be considered.
 
A slippery slope for the knifemaker for sure. In theory, it seems like such a ridiculous thing to do, that you cannot imagine someone falling down it. But when you have an attention span like I do, it's a lot easier in application than you'd think. :o

The main difference for me is that I haven't actually finished anything in a l---o---n---g time while I've been struggling to get one particular knife done.

I got so frustrated that at one point about a year or two ago I made a post showing a simple blade that I had ground out and was thinking about offering for sale as an "economy" piece. I personally saw it just as a small diversion, something to break some personal tension going on inside my head since it had been so long since I'd finished anything.

Then I saw a bunch of posts by a supplier selling materials to many satisfied customers, all the while I had been waiting on him for over a year for something that I paid for and never got.

I was pretty frustrated.

At that time I realized that my post about the "economy" piece had to have come off to my knife collector in just the same way.

"How in the hell is it that you have time for these other people, but not for what you owe me???"

That was a truly sobering and sinking moment.

It all beckons back to the simple addage... "Treat others as you wish to be treated."


Since that time I have only spent the small amount of shop time I have, working on my (VERY PATIENT) knife collector's project. I have tried to stay in touch, and it's F---I----N---A---L----L----Y (really) nearing completion.

It is hands down the best piece I have ever made. But as a maker, I have to stop and think... "Even though it's my best piece to date, will the collector see beauty and grace in it, and perhaps triumph over difficulties simply in the fact it's completed... or only frustration and angst over the long and drawn out time frame????"



*After this very verbose post... there's a simple lesson.*

Don't say you can do what you cannot, and do what you said you will. It will be so much easier on BOTH parties.

This particular maker (who ever he is) should try to put himself on the other side of the coin and then see where he stands. :)
 
- Rant On -
"Most men's word ain't worth sh--!"
Sadly a statement I've found to be true, and true enough among the several custom makers I've dealt with that I've pretty much lost interest in custom orders. I think I put up with it much longer than I should have because I just couldn't believe it would keep happening. Naive I guess. Some thoughts on the subject:

  • If a man says some work will be done next week, and it's not, he's broken his word. Doing so habitually, or without apology, or while holding my money (not a pre-paid order)!? NOBODY'S THAT GOOD. How long would you put up with a "friend" that would would agree to meet for coffee on Tuesday at noon and not show, regardless of apologies or "explanations."
  • I suspect that makers don't get the feedback they should because the purchaser is in an awkward position. I don't trust a guy to do his best work on a knife when his word's worth $#!! and I've just told him so (in more polite terms of course). Of course the shoe may be on the other foot when a well known collector starts expressing an opinion on being misled.
  • I would bet that no single change would do more for the custom knife market than makers living up to the standards that people like Paul Long (first hand experience) or Jim Cooper (by reputation) set.
Not keeping your word to your customers: Now that's PATHETIC.
Still buying knives from people who don't keep their word: Now that's STUPID.
​
- Rant Off -
 
now that Nick has spoken up, I feel I can share our story here;

A couple of years ago, Nick and I arranged a deal for a knife. I fulfilled my end right away for a number of reasons, primarily that I could do it and it was convenient for me at the time.

As a newcomer to the custom knife thing, I was happily unaware of the whole 'don't pay before the knife is made' thing.

The fact is, I talked with Nick on the phone, we exchanged emails regularly and I trust the man. I know that he is good for it, and I can drive down there if I really have to and help him make it:p

I also trust in the fact that his knives are among the most finely finished knives made. The knife he's referring to as being his best will be well worth the wait for the deserving patron, and I expect that Nick will be much better able to make more knives once this monolith is out of his way.

So, a vague timeframe was set and I was expecting a knife within that timeframe.

Time went by and the timeframe with it.

When I had first contacted Nick, he was still really busy making knives, and the one which he'd previously mentioned, in particular. Shortly after, he decided to go back to school. I can appreciate the demands of schooling and have a high value on education.

During all this time, Nick sent to me a big ass file, and a chunk of 1084, which I used to make my first two knives. Then he heat treated them for me, and also sent me one of his blanks.

Over the past couple of years since we first made our deal, we've talked a fair amount on the phone, by email and here in internet forums. I count Nick as one of my best friends who I've never met:D. This is a very short list.

It is because of Nick that I decided I could make a knife. That in itself is priceless.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is that you cannot paint any of this strictly in black and white. There are no rules. This is capitalism.
But you can trust in the goodness of people, if you are diligent and patient.

The show ain't over til the fat lady sings.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top